Do you agree with this man's exegesis? He says sinners just die...

[distracted]

Ok Reg, I’ll take a look at that new post. I’ve taken a look at other religion’s message boards and they have devout followers who will list reasons that their religion is ‘more true’ than the others too. The different religions were all looking very similar to me, which is why I turned to the more basic message of Catholicism, and when even that didn’t make sense to me, things fell apart.
Thanks for your response

Distracted - are you saying that 2 people suffering eternally with 1 getting salvation is ‘good enough’? Think of it - more than trillions of lifetimes of suffering for 2 people. Do you really agree that this is better than even annihilation? Look at the story of God talking with Abraham about how He agreed to save an overwhelmingly bad city if just a few good people were present. If we were to superficially postulate that it is easier to get into Hell than Heaven, how does it make sense to you that people being horribly tortured is ok, especially thinking about that Biblical story? How is this OK considering a perfectly benevolent/merciful God?

I understand the need for punishment when someone does something wrong(finite purgatory makes sense), but I don’t understand why that punishment should be eternal with no chance at respite/redemption, especially when the ‘rules’ are really not that clear to most of the world. That seems unnecessarily cruel, especially when God knows what everyone needs to be saved. And who would really choose infinite torture?

Hell seems more focused on faith than love which is a big part of my issue with it. You can find very devout people of other religions, who love what they think is God, but because they don’t understand well enough to believe in Jesus, they are potentially going to hell. I can not choose to believe that 1+1=3 because it fundamentally doesn’t make sense to me - it is impossible for me, even if you were to threaten thousands of deaths, or offer me millions of dollars I couldn’t see a way to do it even though the desire is there.

To be able to reject something, you need to have knowledge that it is true in order to have a choice to reject. I’m willing to bet that the 2/3 non-Christian haven’t accepted Jesus as the truth and chosen to reject Him and follow another, false religion. There are many people who have the desire and have done the right ‘actions’ to produce faith but simply don’t have it.

There are very clear laws about driving drunk and what the punishment for it is. Having one religion out of thousands be true is not clear at all.

I’m not understanding some of your post…

but i will say this: I know there is a Hell and its not hard to believe a lot of pepole go there. i have been the victim of a LOT of evil and i have seen others be the victim of terrible evil (the unborn.,…) People KNOW they are doing soemthing wrong cuz they are all born with a consicence, whether they are raised christian or not. You don’t have to be Christian to figure out right from wrong… it just helps … a lot. but anyhow… Hell is nothing but the consequence of bad choices… Good choices = good results… Bad = bad results… thats perfect logic…

people who do not love God do not go be with God when they die… perfect logic… They don’t want to go to God…

then there are some who do have the desire to go to God who also end up in Hell… cuz Jesus speaks of the pepole knocking on the door that he has just shut… askign to be let in… but they didn’t really want to be let in… or they would have loved God above all else…

i guess i don’t u/stand what your basic … uh… question is…

 

[Aleii]

I’m not understanding some of your post…

Which part is confusing?

but i will say this: I know there is a Hell and its not hard to believe a lot of pepole go there. i have been the victim of a LOT of evil and i have seen others be the victim of terrible evil (the unborn.,…) People KNOW they are doing soemthing wrong cuz they are all born with a consicence, whether they are raised christian or not. You don’t have to be Christian to figure out right from wrong… it just helps … a lot. but anyhow… Hell is nothing but the consequence of bad choices… Good choices = good results… Bad = bad results… thats perfect logic…

Yes I agree that good choices = good results, but I don’t see how it is perfect logic that bad choices = infinite torture… I’m sorry to hear that you’ve been a victim multiple times. People make mistakes. Many mistakes are the result of misunderstanding or poor education. I agree with some form of punishment for bad behavior, but to make the punishment trillions upon trillions of years of torture with no hope of relief is something that violates my moral compass. I can’t see how someone doing something wrong in a <100 year lifetime deserve infinite torture. Could you please explain that one? Big reasons for punishment here on earth are education, and preventing it from happening again along with justice. What is the purpose of infinite torture? We are not talking about throwing people in jail for 100 years here, we are talking about** everlasting **torture.

Part of the requirements of salvation include acceptance of Jesus, but 2/3 of the world doesn’t even hold the understanding that Jesus is real, so how can they accept or reject Him without that knowledge? Those 2/3 are not people who agree that Jesus is real and decide to instead go to what they know is a false religion. So how is it a choice if you don’t have the proper information? Do you really believe that someone would choose infinite torture over eternal paradise if the information were laid out clearly for them? How is hell more kind than annihilation?

For a God who is infinitely merciful, and has limitless options to prevent one from getting to the point of torture without violating their free will, how is it not a better option to more intensely intervene to educate a person to prevent some of the wrongdoing that may end them up in hell, or even as a last resort annihilate them?

people who do not love God do not go be with God when they die… perfect logic… They don’t want to go to God…

Do these people even have a full understanding of who God is? Why should they be tortured?

then there are some who do have the desire to go to God who also end up in Hell… cuz Jesus speaks of the pepole knocking on the door that he has just shut… askign to be let in… but they didn’t really want to be let in… or they would have loved God above all else…

i guess i don’t u/stand what your basic … uh… question is…

So people have the desire to go to God yet they are given eternal suffering instead? How is this better than just annihlating someone? Why wouldn’t a scaled form of purgatory be more moral than infinite suffering?

Here’s an example. James is born, is a good man, faithful to Christ, but one day his child is raped and murdered. James tracks down the murderer and kills him, and doesn’t feel bad about it enough to sincerely confess, thus earning him a potential ticket to hell. Why wouldn’t God have intervened even to just have James die in his sleep the night before? This is a good man who made a mistake, and he’ll have horrible suffering for all time because of this one incident.

My issue is the eternal punishment doesn’t fit the finite crime. I can not see how a benevolent God would allow unrelenting torture.

Maybe this link will explain my issue better… but the problem of hell seems horrifyingly immoral to me and I can’t fathom how an omnimax God fits with the Catholic view of hell.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_hell

 

[FaithJoy]

I see his major mistake, sadly many people make the same mistake. He is saying souls=spirit; that is incorrect. In the bible a soul is a creature/man. bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/H5315/nephesh.htm Therefore : body + spirit = soul. God does not destroy the spirit, it lives on forever. When the bible talks of a soul dying, it is simply saying a man/creature is dead. He is making way too much out it. He is making it harder than it really is.Simply, he is wrong.

 

[distracted]

Part of the requirements of salvation include acceptance of Jesus, but 2/3 of the world doesn’t even hold the understanding that Jesus is real, so how can they accept or reject Him without that knowledge? Those 2/3 are not people who agree that Jesus is real and decide to instead go to what they know is a false religion. So how is it a choice if you don’t have the proper information? Do you really believe that someone would choose infinite torture over eternal paradise if the information were laid out clearly for them? How is hell more kind than annihilation?

For a God who is infinitely merciful, and has limitless options to prevent one from getting to the point of torture without violating their free will, how is it not a better option to more intensely intervene to educate a person to prevent some of the wrongdoing that may end them up in hell, or even as a last resort annihilate them?

Do these people even have a full understanding of who God is? Why should they be tortured?

So people have the desire to go to God yet they are given eternal suffering instead? How is this better than just annihlating someone? Why wouldn’t a scaled form of purgatory be more moral than infinite suffering?

Here’s an example. James is born, is a good man, faithful to Christ, but one day his child is raped and murdered. James tracks down the murderer and kills him, and doesn’t feel bad about it enough to sincerely confess, thus earning him a potential ticket to hell. Why wouldn’t God have intervened even to just have James die in his sleep the night before? This is a good man who made a mistake, and he’ll have horrible suffering for all time because of this one incident.

My issue is the eternal punishment doesn’t fit the finite crime. I can not see how a benevolent God would allow unrelenting torture.

Maybe this link will explain my issue better… but the problem of hell seems horrifyingly immoral to me and I can’t fathom how an omnimax God fits with the Catholic view of hell.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_hell

well… maybe the best way to understand all this is to simply have a life lik mine… but that’s not possible, absolutely… so…

all i can say is that i understand eternal Hell perfectly… I understand the horrific nature of sin… unrepented of sin

That being said, i still sometimes wonder about the eternity aspect…

but i guess its like this: Christians suffer for their sins and (esp catholics) use their sufferings to atone for those sins… A person who doesnt love God suffers because of sin but never seriously repents or chnages his life… so the suffering has no atonement value… and any suffering a non-christian person experiences… esp someone who is hostile toward God… he probably just chalks up to some other reason, not to Consequences of wron-doing… 4 example if he has a bad experience w/ fornication… the woman leaves him & hurts his feelings… He just thinks his pain is caused by some mistake either he or she or both made… He doesn’t see it as fornication is wrong and is not what God wants…

In the law Ignorance is no excuse. Its kinda that way w/ God also… because a person does not HAVE to be ignorant. IT is his reponsibility to disabuse himself of his ignorance. If a person seeks for the truth about sin and repentance, etc… he will find it… God promises tht those who seek will find. But if a person does not seek it is because he chooses not to. He loves $, sex, things of this world more than he loves God or truth…

we need to face the fact that there are people who just don’t care about truth. They just want to live for this world. that is their choice. choices have consequences…

again, people who end up in Hell do NOT WANT Heaven… they choose NOT to go to Heaven. They choose NOT to love God or His ways… and then there are some who claim to love God but don’t love his laws… his ways… so they don’t really love God. *I am sure we all know people who appear to be good Christians and yet… appearances are deceiving… onlly GOD knows the heart… Tiller went to church, for crying out loud, yet he committed murder of the most innocent humans of all every day for years & years…

you called some person “good”…

As Jesus said “there is none good but God”

As it says in (I think) Jeremiah: the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked…"

 

[distracted]

My issue is the eternal punishment doesn’t fit the finite crime. I can not see how a benevolent God would allow unrelenting torture.

hell

You say the punishment doesn’t fit the crime?

only God knows that… we humans don’t know and cannot know certain things… esp about what happens after death. It is your subjective opinion that the punishment doesn’t fit the crime…

sin that is not atoned for has an infinite aspect that canot be done away with without Christ and His power… But people have to submit to Jesus and let Him have that power in their lives b4 they can be sufficiently purified to enter Heaven… where the Word tell us “no impure thing will enter” (Rev 21:27)

this is one reason i could never be protestnat… they don’t believe in Purgatory (Not tht thats the only reason, but anyhow…)

Purgatory is Hell that eventually comes to an end. it is for people who sinned and maybe even sinned in a huge way… but they repented. Everyone knows when they do something wrong… again, you don’t have to be a Christian to know when you’ve done soemthing wrong… Those who stop doing the wrong… and try to do better… those are the ones who love God’s truth… and god will lead them… but some people allow themselves to be led by the devil only…

Why is it so hard to believe that when their lives are over, they go to BE WITH the devil and his followers??? that’s where they belong…

and again… they don’t WANT Heaven…

 

[The_Reginator]

**You say the punishment doesn’t fit the crime?

only God knows that.**… we humans don’t know and cannot know certain things… esp about what happens after death. It is your subjective opinion that the punishment doesn’t fit the crime…

and again… they don’t WANT Heaven…

Thanks, distracted.
That’s what I’ve been trying to say to our friend Aleii, but I think you expressed it much better than I have.

 

[distracted]

Thanks, distracted.
That’s what I’ve been trying to say to our friend Aleii, but I think you expressed it much better than I have.

wow… I’m about to fall over…

i was expecting to be blasted all over the place…

instead you compliment me… hmmm…

will wonders ever cease?

thanks…

 

[Aleii]

A person who doesnt love God suffers because of sin but never seriously repents or chnages his life… so the suffering has no atonement value… and any suffering a non-christian person experiences… esp someone who is hostile toward God… he probably just chalks up to some other reason, not to Consequences of wron-doing
In the law Ignorance is no excuse. Its kinda that way w/ God also… because a person does not HAVE to be ignorant. IT is his reponsibility to disabuse himself of his ignorance. If a person seeks for the truth about sin and repentance, etc… he will find it… God promises tht those who seek will find. But if a person does not seek it is because he chooses not to. He loves $, sex, things of this world more than he loves God or truth…

There are not hundreds of different sets of laws, there is one set per area which is easy to look up, and easy to see it enforced. Not so with religion, there are thousands out there, and nothing concrete to show without doubt which is correct over another. I know hell is still considered a vague concept, but most ignorant people don’t realize their ignorance. Are saying that 2/3 of the population realizes they are ignorant but are too lazy to find the ‘correct’ religion? If they have researched with a sincere heart and see their own religion as being accurate what more are they supposed to do?

In my Catholic studies, for example, it was commonly said that if something would potentially harm your faith you should stay away from it. I’ve seen others on this forum advise those who are not strong in their faith not to be here (at least in the more controversial threads). Those of non-Catholic faith have the same rationale given to them and think they are being good. There are very devout members of every other faith who have given their lives to the study of what they think is the truth, but again, it does not have Jesus in it. Ignorance should not be punishable by eternal damnation with no hope of rescue. I still don’t see how hell is not horribly unjust and unmerciful. If your child wants to play in a busy street do you let them? No, of course not. You don’t want them to pay for that bit of freedom with their lives.

There are many, many people in this world who have done all the right ‘faith producing’ actions with a true desire and have not found faith in Jesus. Its a pretty convenient thing to say to a non-Catholic to just seek, to just pray and they will surely become Catholic, but if the whole thing still does not make sense to the person, it is not possible to have faith. Faith is simply not a choice like a lightswitch that you can turn on and off. Again, if you don’t have full knowledge of your options, you can not make a real choice about something, and if faith in Jesus is required then at least some will go to Hell not of their own choosing. Who would really choose eternal torture? Wailing and gnashing of teeth does not sound like something that people would readily choose? So why do you continue to say that it is a simple choice?

If you still fail to see how faith is not a choice, please let me know what this person did wrong in her attempt for faith. freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=72552

Also, if the suffering in Hell has no atonement value, then what is its purpose? How is it just rather than cruel?

we need to face the fact that there are people who just don’t care about truth. They just want to live for this world. that is their choice. choices have consequences…

again, people who end up in Hell do NOT WANT Heaven… they choose NOT to go to Heaven. They choose NOT to love God or His ways… and then there are some who claim to love God but don’t love his laws… his ways… so they don’t really love God. *I am sure we all know people who appear to be good Christians and yet… appearances are deceiving… onlly GOD knows the heart… Tiller went to church, for crying out loud, yet he committed murder of the most innocent humans of all every day for years & years…

Again, it is not clear, it is not black and white especially when thousands of religions tell us different things. Personally I stopped being Catholic because it no longer seemed like the truth to me. Catholicism seems to value faith over love in an unjust manner. I can say that I love God but don’t see how it is likely that Jesus is God, and according to Catholicism I’d be in Hell because I don’t get how Jesus is God - I hold no hate for Jesus, I just don’t understand how the legend is the truth.

(continued)

 

[Aleii]

you called some person “good”…
As Jesus said “there is none good but God”
As it says in (I think) Jeremiah: the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked…"

Yes I know the line that we are all horrible people. You have not answered the part about simply annihlating these people. I did not choose to be born, nor did I choose to play the game of life with these vague rules, where if I make a mistake I could pay for it dearly for all eternity. What a terrible thing. Why can’t I choose annihilation over horrible suffering for all time then, if faith isn’t a choice?

You say the punishment doesn’t fit the crime?
only God knows that… we humans don’t know and cannot know certain things… esp about what happens after death. It is your subjective opinion that the punishment doesn’t fit the crime…
sin that is not atoned for has an infinite aspect that canot be done away with without Christ and His power… But people have to submit to Jesus and let Him have that power in their lives b4 they can be sufficiently purified to enter Heaven… where the Word tell us “no impure thing will enter” (Rev 21:27)

“Gods ways are not our ways” can be used to justify anything in any religion. Look at the Mayan religion - human sacrifice is pretty clearly immoral, but they justified it by believing their Gods required it. I’m sure you wouldn’t accept “the Mayan God is much more powerful and knows what’s right” in a case like that.

Everyone knows when they do something wrong… again, you don’t have to be a Christian to know when you’ve done soemthing wrong… Those who stop doing the wrong… and try to do better… those are the ones who love God’s truth… and god will lead them… but some people allow themselves to be led by the devil only…

I don’t have a problem with purgatory, I have a problem with Hell. People make mistakes and like I said earlier, a lot of them are from misunderstanding and they may not even know it was in error until later. A loving person gives them chances to repent. Hell gives no chance of repenting so I can’t see how it possible that it exists with an omnimax God around. How is it not evil to allow Hell to exist? Why not just put everyone in purgatory?

Why is it so hard to believe that when their lives are over, they go to BE WITH the devil and his followers??? that’s where they belong…

and again… they don’t WANT Heaven…

I’m sorry but this line seems so vicious… See earlier parts of my post; I can’t see how anyone would want to forever be wailing and gnashing their teeth with no hope of respite. Please find any example of someone who is not psychotic who wants to be in horrible suffering and I’ll be shocked and give my concession. I also can’t see how anyone would be OK with their brothers and sisters being in horrible torment for the rest of time. How can you be OK for torture for your fellow man? Why isn’t an omnimax God doing more to prevent this? It should be quite easy for one with limitless options and knowledge to save everyone or the vast majority without compromising their free will.

 

[Aleii]

Thanks, distracted.
That’s what I’ve been trying to say to our friend Aleii, but I think you expressed it much better than I have.

You pretty clearly expressed that idea in post 25, but my reply to that again is “God’s ways are not our ways, God is higher than us” can be used to justify anything in any religion, including atrocities, therefore it can not be used to uphold a foundational piece of one’s faith. There has to be some other piece which shows how eternal torment with no hope of mercy is compatible with an omnibenevolent omniscient omnipotent perfectly merciful God.

 

[The_Reginator]

You pretty clearly expressed that idea in post 25, but my reply to that again is “God’s ways are not our ways, God is higher than us” can be used to justify anything in any religion, including atrocities, therefore it can not be used to uphold a foundational piece of one’s faith. There has to be some other piece which shows how eternal torment with no hope of mercy is compatible with an omnibenevolent omniscient omnipotent perfectly merciful God.

I’ll make another stab at it.

Firstly, let’s address the idea of ‘waling and gnashing of teeth’.
What is the main attribute of hell? ** HELL IS OUR ETERNAL SEPARATION FROM GOD. **
That’s what causes the waling and gnashing of teeth. That is the reason it is comparable to eternal fire. We all want God so very badly (whether we realize it or not), but we also want to put ourselves first. If we put ourselves first then, of course, God becomes a distant second. Or, more correctly, God becomes a nothing for us.

More knowledgeable people may have to correct me here but:
My understanding is that after death we will be able to see what it means to follow God for all eternity. We may decide that we’d rather be separated from God than be subject to Him and be responsible for the work He assigns. Satan experienced that life and decided that he would prefer to have things his way rather than being a mere follower of his creator. This mighty angel rebelled – how many humans will follow his lead?
How often in our lives here on earth do we find ourselves in a position where following someone else simply hurts our pride too much? We all experience that.
So it ends up being our decision as to whether we’ll submit to God. If we submit then we will eventually join the Communion of the Saints. We will become, in essence, Catholics, though the term will have no significant meaning then.
God will weigh what we’ve done and some will get purified in purgatory. Others choose to be false right to God’s face and they will get the life they choose.

We are training ourselves here on this earth in ways that will affect that final decision. If we live lives full of love, faith and piety, then it will be much easier for us to really want to follow our Lord in heaven. To strictly follow the Catholic faith just makes everything easier.

Aleii, if I haven’t confused you yet (I’m getting a wee bit tired meself) just ask me to clarify any nonsense I’ve typed here. (I hope there is no nonsense, but I started rambling.)

If you and I keep searching for the truth and live lives of love, we’ll be able to reminisce about this in a few hundred years.

 

[Aleii]

I’ll make another stab at it.

Firstly, let’s address the idea of ‘waling and gnashing of teeth’.
What is the main attribute of hell? ** HELL IS OUR ETERNAL SEPARATION FROM GOD. **
That’s what causes the waling and gnashing of teeth. That is the reason it is comparable to eternal fire. We all want God so very badly (whether we realize it or not), but we also want to put ourselves first. If we put ourselves first then, of course, God becomes a distant second. Or, more correctly, God becomes a nothing for us.

Yes, I know it is eternal separation and that’s a big part of the pain. Hell is a vague issue though, and some credible Catholic sources like Fatima do describe it as fire. Regardless though it is horrible suffering. Currently 2/3 of the world is not Christian. If you subscribe to the theory that God will put all information plainly in front of a person, even at the instant of death, then who in their right mind would choose eternal suffering over a knock on pride? If you go with the idea that Hell is a plainly put forth choice, then how can God be moral if he disallows the opportunity for redemption for the man who made the mistake and is now in Hell? Isn’t a big part of love to always be waiting for a person with open arms, ready to forgive and welcome them home? God must certainly be powerful enough to save any from hell but instead chooses to allow unrelenting suffering. For what purpose? How is that right? I know I’d rather not exist at all than have neverending pain, so why isn’t that an option?

More knowledgeable people may have to correct me here but:
My understanding is that after death we will be able to see what it means to follow God for all eternity. We may decide that we’d rather be separated from God than be subject to Him and be responsible for the work He assigns. Satan experienced that life and decided that he would prefer to have things his way rather than being a mere follower of his creator. This mighty angel rebelled – how many humans will follow his lead?
How often in our lives here on earth do we find ourselves in a position where following someone else simply hurts our pride too much? We all experience that.
So it ends up being our decision as to whether we’ll submit to God. If we submit then we will eventually join the Communion of the Saints. We will become, in essence, Catholics, though the term will have no significant meaning then.
God will weigh what we’ve done and some will get purified in purgatory. Others choose to be false right to God’s face and they will get the life they choose.

Sure, everyone’s had an instance where our pride is hurt, and we may do wrong, but we learn from it, grow, and apologize - those who are wronged forgive and hopefully give the person a second chance. Hell gives no second chance. How is that loving?

We are training ourselves here on this earth in ways that will affect that final decision. If we live lives full of love, faith and piety, then it will be much easier for us to really want to follow our Lord in heaven. To strictly follow the Catholic faith just makes everything easier.

The presence of thousands of religions shows that there is no clear rulebook for how to live our lives. While I agree with the love part, not everyone is blessed with faith, let alone faith for the ‘true’ religion.

Aleii, if I haven’t confused you yet (I’m getting a wee bit tired meself) just ask me to clarify any nonsense I’ve typed here. (I hope there is no nonsense, but I started rambling.)

Its not an easy issue, for sure. I do appreciate the cordial conversation though, and will keep searching for the link that I am missing. Something that seems very clear to me may not be so for another, and vice versa. Maybe, as Distracted said, we just need to live the lives of another to really understand. (Now I’m envisioning that Star-Trek type technology haha)

If you and I keep searching for the truth and live lives of love, we’ll be able to reminisce about this in a few hundred years.

Reg, I certainly hope so!

 

[distracted]

There are not hundreds of different sets of laws, there is one set per area which is easy to look up, and easy to see it enforced.

N

with religion, there are thousands out there, and nothing concrete to show without doubt which is correct over another.

some seek God where He can be found… and that means AWAY from sinful humans… It is not outside the realm of possibility to find God outside of religions, most of which are created by humans. The Romanc Catholic Church was not founded by humans. it is run by humans and so there is bad stuff along w/ the good… (Who would know better than I??)… but it is not a good thing to seek truth merely in churches or so called churches… That being said, its a mortal sin to miss Mass on Sunday. I think its a venial sin to miss in on the weed days… unles there is a very good reason why a person can’t go, but that’s just my personal opinion… i doubt the RCC would agree…

I know hell is still considered a vague concept, but most ignorant people don’t realize their ignorance.

you underestimate people. People hide their true selves from other humans cuz they know humans would not understand their… struggles, etc… But they can’t hide from God… much less fool Him.

n’rt.Are saying that 2/3 of the population realizes they are ignorant but are too lazy to find the ‘correct’ religion?

No

If they have researched with a sincere heart and see their own religion as being accurate what more are they supposed to do?

knowing the truth does not save a person… It is living the truth that saves…

. Ignorance should not be punishable by eternal damnation with no hope of rescue. I still don’t see how hell is not horribly unjust and unmerciful.

do you have to see? do you have to know absolutely everything before you will believe?? Then you never will…i have a lot of questions also… but i know Jesus is real. I’ve spent time w/ Him in the Real Presence… in total silence. All Catholics (all people) should do this but not many do

v If your child wants to play in a busy street do you let them?

Jesus came to stop people from playing in the busy street. If they reject him… they will get run over & it will be no one’s fault but their own… n

No, of course not. You don’t want them to pay for that bit of freedom with their lives.

what i want doesn’t count

There are many, many people in this world who have done all the right ‘faith producing’ actions with a true desire and have not found faith in Jesus.

you are passing judgment on them. you have no way of knowing if they have “done all the right” things or not. You don’t know people.

r

Its a pretty convenient thing to say to a non-Catholic to just seek, to just pray and they will surely become Catholic, but if the whole thing still does not make sense to the person, it is not possible to have faith.

we are created in God’s image. it will make sense… Truth has only to be seen to be accepted as truth… If people reject it knowing its the truth… there are consequences to that… and many people do this. They know the truth… they know, for example, that abortion is murder… but they call it Choice… call it something esle & then Voila’ it is no longer murder… They have changed the truth… so they think… but somewhere inside they know its murder… but they think they can lie to God… “Well, God… you KNOW i didn’t believe it was murder… so you can’t hold me accountable cuz i was ignorant…” doesn’t work that way…

 

[distracted]

; I can’t see how anyone would want to forever be wailing and gnashing their teeth with no hope of respite. Please find any example of someone who is not psychotic who wants to be in horrible suffering and I’ll be shocked and give my concession. I also can’t see how anyone would be OK with their brothers and sisters being in horrible torment for the rest of time. How can you be OK for torture for your fellow man? Why isn’t an omnimax God doing more to prevent this? It should be quite easy for one with limitless options and knowledge to save everyone or the vast majority without compromising their free will.

so people don’t get what they want?? They got what they wanted in this life… They probably got wealth and position & everything this world has to offer…& snubbed their noses at the one “thing” that was most real, namely Jesus… salvation. Do you think God doesn’t do absolutely everything he can to save them??? What kind of God do you believe in? one who ignores his creatures entirely, never speaks to them… never provides guidance (guardian angels)? do you think there are actually humans who live in a vacuum? never hearing of Jesus? never thinking that maybe they might be on the wrong path?

even someone who has never heard of Jesus… can “know” Him through nature… as is alluded to in the 1st chapters of Romans… its actually MORE than alluded to… but anyhow…

if someone is ignorant but sins in a big way, not thining its a sin… God (life / fate) shows the person he is doing wrong… If he ignores that… he doesn’t care about wrong or right… Ok, so he does it again with bad results… Still he doesn’t listen to his conscience telling him he’s wrong… he does it again… well, pretty soon he is sold out to the devil… and all devils go to Hell in the end…

 

[distracted]

You pretty clearly expressed that idea in post 25, but my reply to that again is “God’s ways are not our ways, God is higher than us” can be used to justify anything in any religion, including atrocities, therefore it can not be used to uphold a foundational piece of one’s faith. There has to be some other piece which shows how eternal torment with no hope of mercy is compatible with an omnibenevolent omniscient omnipotent perfectly merciful God.

define: atrocities

define: “Atrocities” that are not approved of by God

Whose criteria are we to go by in calling something inexcusable???

either the Bible is the Word of God or it is not…

you must be saying you think it is not.

 

[distracted]

Ok Reg, I’ll take a look at that new post. I’ve taken a look at other religion’s message boards and they have devout followers who will list reasons that their religion is ‘more true’ than the others too. The different religions were all looking very similar to me, which is why I turned to the more basic message of Catholicism, and when even that didn’t make sense to me, things fell apart.
Thanks for your response

Distracted - are you saying that 2 people suffering eternally with 1 getting salvation is ‘good enough’? Think of it - more than trillions of lifetimes of suffering for 2 people. Do you really agree that this is better than even annihilation? Look at the story of God talking with Abraham about how He agreed to save an overwhelmingly bad city if just a few good people were present. If we were to superficially postulate that it is easier to get into Hell than Heaven, how does it make sense to you that people being horribly tortured is ok, especially thinking about that Biblical story? How is this OK considering a perfectly benevolent/merciful God?

I understand the need for punishment when someone does something wrong(finite purgatory makes sense), but I don’t understand why that punishment should be eternal with no chance at respite/redemption, especially when the ‘rules’ are really not that clear to most of the world. That seems unnecessarily cruel, especially when God knows what everyone needs to be saved. And who would really choose infinite torture?

Hell seems more focused on faith than love which is a big part of my issue with it. You can find very devout people of other religions, who love what they think is God, but because they don’t understand well enough to believe in Jesus, they are potentially going to hell. I can not choose to believe that 1+1=3 because it fundamentally doesn’t make sense to me - it is impossible for me, even if you were to threaten thousands of deaths, or offer me millions of dollars I couldn’t see a way to do it even though the desire is there.

To be able to reject something, you need to have knowledge that it is true in order to have a choice to reject. I’m willing to bet that the 2/3 non-Christian haven’t accepted Jesus as the truth and chosen to reject Him and follow another, false religion. There are many people who have the desire and have done the right ‘actions’ to produce faith but simply don’t have it.

There are very clear laws about driving drunk and what the punishment for it is. Having one religion out of thousands be true is not clear at all.

why do you think that people are all as innocent as this???

you seem to think that humans are not born with a conscience tellling them right from wrong.

If you are raised with NO religion at all… you still know right from wrong… and you are judged (@ death) according to how you responded to this knowledge of right & wrong… you are judged when you die by your choices… Even a nonChristian in the middle of nowhere who has never heard of Jesus knows right from wrong.

you seem to think that God doesn’t REVEAL his truth and his ways to us??? Well, he does… and even more so to those of us who hear his Word every day…

wen i started going to Mass more freuqenlty yrs ago… i was amazed @ what i heard there… and i knew it was the truth - what i heard corresponded with the truth that was already IN my soul/mind… I’m sure you’ve had it happen b4 … you will be reading some book and some sentence will stand out for you… it will hit home… and you say, “Yes, this is SO true…” even though you haven’t heard that particular truth put into words b4… You know its true cuz of your experiences/ etc… you just know its true & no one can convince you o/wise…That’s the way it is with the Word of God… People instinctively KNOW its true…

and even if they never heard the written Word of God, it is basically written on their hearts anyway… We are made in god’s image.

its the person who goes against his conscience who is in trouble. Those who go against their consicence and then repent… can be saved… but the soul that constantly sins… well, it gets to a point where it is virutally irreedemable… if it just keeps sinning and not fully repenting. Just saying “Sory, God…” doesn’t cut it. Sin has to expiated… a soul has to be perfectly purified to enter heaven (Rev 21:27)

 

[distracted]

94.29 % say this man is off his rocker… that there IS a Hell…

people like this read only some scripture, it seems… or they take only some of it literally or whatever… I’m not saying the whole Bible should be taken literally… but Jesus was very specific when he mentioned Hell and who goes there.

those who do not care for the needs of others (St Mt 25:31)

thsoe who can’t see Jesus in other Christians (ditto)

those who do not do the commandments (St Mk 10:17?)

those who do no choose Him above all

idolators (Old Testament…parts of the New)

fornicators (Revelation)

liars…

those who reject moral truth are the biggest liars of all… They say they don’t believe Jesus but what they really say is that they don’t want to follow his “strict” laws… yet following the ways of the world ends up in more pain and misery than following Jesus’ ways… & in the end they will have eternal misery… …

 

[Aleii]

Hi Distracted
Sorry for not responding to your post earlier, I did not see it until now as I thought the thread had died.
Reading your replies, I’m seeing a lot of multiple exclamation marks and question marks, so I get the feeling that you are upset because of that. Let me assure you that my intention is not to debunk Catholicism, it is actually to try to fill a pretty big gap in my understanding of Catholicism. Whether or not you will accept it – I am writing with good intentions and trying to explain why things are so confusing to me. I am also coming from the premise that God can not do anything wrong/evil/atrocious etc, so therefore if something doesn’t make sense it is either a problem with my understanding, or it is a problem with Catholicism. I am asking you to help show me how I have an issue with my understanding. I don’t know how I am coming off as judgmental to you, but it is really not my intention or motive here.
Now, on to your replies:

some seek God where He can be found… and that means AWAY from sinful humans… It is not outside the realm of possibility to find God outside of religions, most of which are created by humans.

Could you elaborate more on this? I’d be interested to hear more about this.

you underestimate people. People hide their true selves from other humans cuz they know humans would not understand their… struggles, etc… But they can’t hide from God… much less fool Him.

I’m not saying people are trying to fool God(although some probably try), I’m saying that people from every religion think their religion is correct. Your average Muslim thinks he’s on the right path, for example.

knowing the truth does not save a person… It is living the truth that saves…

If they do not know the truth, how can they live it? I know you will say conscience, and I have no qualms about God judging actions, but faith is also a significant part of salvation.

do you have to see? do you have to know absolutely everything before you will believe??

No, I don’t have to know every little detail in order to believe something, but at least I need a foundation of faith in order to fall back on. If the large portions of faith make sense, I am perfectly fine with not knowing the little pieces, but to me, the concept of hell/salvation is a one of those pieces of foundation for me. It may not be for someone else.

Then you never will…i have a lot of questions also… but i know Jesus is real. I’ve spent time w/ Him in the Real Presence… in total silence. All Catholics (all people) should do this but not many do

I have done adoration too, but unfortunately I do not know in my heart that Jesus is real.

I was using the street example that Jesus knows better than us.

you are passing judgment on them. you have no way of knowing if they have “done all the right” things or not. You don’t know people.

Wow, this is ** offensive**, as I am one of those people who have spent almost 15 years in a crisis of faith doing everything I can think of(praying, rosaries, novenas, retreats, conferences with a priest, research, adoration, etc) to regain my faith with poor results, and I have spoken with others who are in similar situations who express the same desires and efforts. I’d like an explanation at how I am passing judgment by saying something that I have personally done and relaying what others have told me. You have no clue what I have gone through trying to save my faith so please do not tell me I am judgmental by stating mine, and others’ stories. I’m curious, did you read the story I posted in reply #39 as a response to you? “If you still fail to see how faith is not a choice, please let me know what this person did wrong in her attempt for faith. freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=72552” I think by reading Lauri’s story it will help you to see how faith is not as clear cut as you make it out to be, and that there really are people out there who put forth the effort but still lose their faith.
[continued]

 

[Aleii]

we are created in God’s image. it will make sense… Truth has only to be seen to be accepted as truth… If people reject it knowing its the truth… there are consequences to that… and many people do this. They know the truth… they know, for example, that abortion is murder… but they call it Choice… call it something esle & then Voila’ it is no longer murder… They have changed the truth… so they think… but somewhere inside they know its murder… but they think they can lie to God… “Well, God… you KNOW i didn’t believe it was murder… so you can’t hold me accountable cuz i was ignorant…” doesn’t work that way…

I don’t know your life, if you’ve experienced suddenly not seeing how 1+1=2 anymore, but that’s the easiest way I can describe it. The faith simply doesn’t make sense to me anymore. It looks like a foreign language now. It is very easy to say that something you see as the truth should be easy for everyone else to see, but it is not.

Not everyone has the same view about things being wrong. Most people agree that murder is wrong, but not everyone agrees that i.e. homosexual sex or birth control is wrong. (I’m not saying I do or do not agree with that, I’m just saying not everyone understands why Catholics think its wrong). Those however are pretty serious sins in the Catholic view. I’m not trying to excuse anything, but I am trying to say that people may honestly think they are doing right even when the Catholic Church says it is wrong.

so people don’t get what they want?? They got what they wanted in this life… They probably got wealth and position & everything this world has to offer…& snubbed their noses at the one “thing” that was most real, namely Jesus… salvation. Do you think God doesn’t do absolutely everything he can to save them??? What kind of God do you believe in? one who ignores his creatures entirely, never speaks to them… never provides guidance (guardian angels)? do you think there are actually humans who live in a vacuum? never hearing of Jesus? never thinking that maybe they might be on the wrong path?

The vast majority of the people in the world do not get “wealth and position and everything the world has to offer.” Really I’m not arguing that a person should or should not get what they want after death, I’m arguing that eternal punishment for 100 years of wrongdoing seems extremely disproportionate and thus unjust. God can’t be unjust so there’s something wrong somewhere down the line. You can’t really compare 100 years to eternity, especially an eternity of suffering. I don’t know if you have ever worked with or lived with people in chronic pain before, but an eternity of it is hard to fathom being good.

Honestly, the older I get, the more it does appear that God, to me, seems to be a hands-off God. Looking at the world, this makes a lot of sense to me. I really don’t see the vast intervention you mention. I’m not trying to be mean or rude, I just don’t see it, and I’ve tried. And while the majority of people have heard of Jesus, they’ve also heard of many other religions out there. Just because you hear something doesn’t mean a lightbulb instantly goes off that that one religion out of the thousands out there is the truth and you need to study it. Especially if you have been brought up in a different religion that you believe in, I don’t see how the average person would immediately go and study Jesus if they already believe they have the right religion. And sure, some people think they are on the wrong path.

even someone who has never heard of Jesus… can “know” Him through nature… as is alluded to in the 1st chapters of Romans… its actually MORE than alluded to… but anyhow…

I read Romans 1, but can you explain this in more detail? How does nature specifically allude to Catholicism above all others?

if someone is ignorant but sins in a big way, not thining its a sin… God (life / fate) shows the person he is doing wrong… If he ignores that… he doesn’t care about wrong or right… Ok, so he does it again with bad results… Still he doesn’t listen to his conscience telling him he’s wrong… he does it again… well, pretty soon he is sold out to the devil… and all devils go to Hell in the end…

Catholicism teaches that your conscience can be wrong and that is why Catholics must rely on the Church, even on issues that they disagree with or don’t understand.
But before I can do that I need a foundation of faith, which I don’t have.
Regardless though, my issue is more that the Catholic view of salvation is not only good works(This I can understand and acknowledge a need for some punishment, though not eternal punishment) but also faith, and faith doesn’t seem to be a choice. Do you feel you can force faith upon yourself even if you want it? If so, how? How would you go about convincing yourself that Zeus is real, for example?
[continued]

 

[Aleii]

define: atrocities

define: “Atrocities” that are not approved of by God

Whose criteria are we to go by in calling something inexcusable???

either the Bible is the Word of God or it is not…

you must be saying you think it is not.

I am saying that any person from any religion can “excuse” their actions by saying the line “Gods ways are higher than ours”, such as 9/11. That is why I need something with more substance and specificity to Catholicism in order to accept an idea as being accurate. I need clarity in order to have the foundation necessary for belief. That line gives no specific clarity. For minor things sure, I can dismiss them, but not for major things. As to the Bible being the word of God, I honestly don’t know.

why do you think that people are all as innocent as this???

you seem to think that humans are not born with a conscience tellling them right from wrong.

I’m not saying that, although people do have different ideas of right and wrong. In the paragraph this was in response to, it was talking about punishment being eternal (I have no problem with limited punishment), and that faith is not like a lightswitch, it can not be turned on and off at will. There’s a big part in Catholicism that says the correct faith is a critical component of salvation – that does not make sense to me looking at the general disposition of most of the world.

you seem to think that God doesn’t REVEAL his truth and his ways to us??? Well, he does… and even more so to those of us who hear his Word every day…

wen i started going to Mass more freuqenlty yrs ago… i was amazed @ what i heard there… and i knew it was the truth - what i heard corresponded with the truth that was already IN my soul/mind… I’m sure you’ve had it happen b4 … you will be reading some book and some sentence will stand out for you… it will hit home… and you say, “Yes, this is SO true…” even though you haven’t heard that particular truth put into words b4… You know its true cuz of your experiences/ etc… you just know its true & no one can convince you o/wise…That’s the way it is with the Word of God… People instinctively KNOW its true…

Yes – this is exactly what I want to point out – there are those of us who read the words and the opposite happens – they only get more confused! I’m telling you of my own experience, and I was once a devout Roman Catholic.

94.29 % say this man is off his rocker… that there IS a Hell…

people like this read only some scripture, it seems… or they take only some of it literally or whatever… I’m not saying the whole Bible should be taken literally… but Jesus was very specific when he mentioned Hell and who goes there.

I’m guessing this refers to me? How many people thought the earth was flat? Numbers alone don’t mean anything. For example, there are more Muslims in the world than there are Catholics. Does that mean “Catholics are off their rocker”? No, of course not. I’d also appreciate a little more respectful replies from you. And no, I’m not a man.

those who do not care for the needs of others (St Mt 25:31)

thsoe who can’t see Jesus in other Christians (ditto)

those who do not do the commandments (St Mk 10:17?)

those who do no choose Him above all

idolators (Old Testament…parts of the New)

fornicators (Revelation)

liars…

Or you could say the more general faith + good works = heaven. Not all of us are blessed with the faith part, and that I do not see as a choice. Please read that story above, and tell me what piece is missing for faith. What did Lauri in the story fail to do to get faith? I’ve told you about what I’ve done, what piece am I missing?

those who reject moral truth are the biggest liars of all… They say they don’t believe Jesus but what they really say is that they don’t want to follow his “strict” laws… yet following the ways of the world ends up in more pain and misery than following Jesus’ ways… & in the end they will have eternal misery… …

This is a blanket statement, a generalization and a bad stereotype. It’s a pretty easy thing to say about someone else, but please look a little deeper before saying things like this.