Do you believe in evolution?

[Rau]

Two giant celestial objects exist in the distance, but do not appear to move relative to each other nor relative to you.

Do I cease to age? Do I no longer become hungry? Do those celestial objects I see not moving cease to radiate?

 

[Freddy]

Hume:

Two giant celestial objects exist in the distance, but do not appear to move relative to each other nor relative to you.

Do I cease to age? Do I no longer become hungry? Do those celestial objects I see not moving cease to radiate?

That’s change. No change, no time.

 

[Rau]

That’s change. No change, no time.

Yes. But there is change. Decay, radiation. Thus time.

 

[JanR]

Even the Catechism recognizes evolution.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

That’s change. No change, no time.

Yes. But there is change. Decay, radiation. Thus time.

If there’s change, then yes. Roger Penrose has suggested that after an immense amount of time, everything will have degraded to a point where there is no change. And time stops. And there is nothing with which to measure distance so size is a concept that becomes meaningless.

He then proposes that this is the situation found at the ‘begining’ of the big bang and so the universe starts again. But that’s off topic.

 

[Hume]

Hume:

Two giant celestial objects exist in the distance, but do not appear to move relative to each other nor relative to you.

Do I cease to age? Do I no longer become hungry? Do those celestial objects I see not moving cease to radiate?

Thanks @Freddy for the answers.

If you don’t have displacement, you don’t have time. As we can see, you have to add some sort of displacement into the thought experiment in order to create your ability to observe time.

Without displacement, you can’t even be totally sure you’re existing in three dimensions.

 

[OKComputer]

One thing I learned in life: The best way to start a fight between Christians is to ask them their opinion of evolution. Guarenteed bloodshed.

Yes, I do accept evolution. In the words of Pope John Paul II, it’s “more than a theory”

 

[Noose001]

… sigh …

13.8 is not a discrete thing. It’s not. You can’t give me a handful of 13.8, nor a jug of 13.8.

It’s a measurement.

You can give me 13.8 jellybeans . 13.8 cc’s of phenobarbital . 13.8 miles . 13.8 billion years .

Going around the same thing.

Can you get to 13.8 B years without starting from zero?

It seems that time is simply a derivative measure of the universe. Big Universe, little time. Something the universe “produces” rather than is “contained by”.

You’ve swapped horse-and-cart here.

That would mean, if the universe stops (no changes), it would impact time such that time only stops but things remain as they are. Not true, if time stops, things disappear so things are derivative of time and not the other way round.

Nothing can start and no change can begin if there’s no time. Start and begin are derivatives of time.

Without displacement (movement) of some sort, you have no ability to observe and mark the passage of time. As time is a derivative measure, it then no longer exists.

And measure is a derivative of consciousness. There is no displacement without consciously determining there’s one by comparing the original state and present state of the said objects.
Therefore to me, consciousness creates reality, time being a derivative of a conscious mind.

Wrong.

We have literally zero information about what’s beyond and before the universe.

Really bear down on that. You and I have zero information.

… sigh …
Darkness and silence and many other things have no beginnings and we have all the information about them because they are nothing.

If we say silence is a condition that started at the big bang and then go ahead and define silence as the absence of sound, we have actually done nothing. For sound to start (big bang), it has to take over from a condition called absence of sound (silence). We are therefore 100% sure of the conditions before the big bang, one of them being silence.

What other options do we have?

1. Embrace an eternal universe - not likely
2. Explain how something can come out of absolute nothing.

 

[Freddy]

…if time stops, things disappear…

I love this thread…

 

[Hume]

Therefore to me, consciousness creates reality, time being a derivative of a conscious mind.

We know your fundamental paradigm can’t be a valid way to approach truth.

How?

Because when people die, the universe persists.

The universe is not a construct of Ricky’s consciousness because when Ricky dies the party goes on without him.

Moreover, empirical truth is the greatest truth because it can be verified. It’s not just a construct of Ricky’s imagination. George can observe the phenomenon too. So can Scott and Susie. Because of this, we can safely assume that what all those people are observing is a truth or a thing that exists apart from them.

What you’re arguing for is really solipsism, which has been around since Gorgias at the tail-end of Greece’s golden age.

 

[Dan123]

Can you get to 13.8 B years without starting from zero?

Tune into a car race or a track and field event. You’ll notice they start all the clocks at 0:00 and count up from there. This does not mean nothing existed before the race started.

13.8 billion years is how long it appears has passed since the ‘race’ we call spacetime began. It does not say anything about before the race began.

 

[Noose001]

We know your fundamental paradigm can’t be a valid way to approach truth.

How?

Because when people die, the universe persists.

The universe is not a construct of Ricky’s consciousness because when Ricky dies the party goes on without him.

Moreover, empirical truth is the greatest truth because it can be verified. It’s not just a construct of Ricky’s imagination. George can observe the phenomenon too. So can Scott and Susie. Because of this, we can safely assume that what all those people are observing is a truth or a thing that exists apart from them.

That’s why i said ‘our collective consciousness’. If Ricky dies, consciousness still continues in the form of Susie and Scott but if everyone dies, time stops and everything disappears. This is actually the precise meaning of death - darkness and silence and coldness and no change at all and timeless forever.

What you’re arguing for is really solipsism, which has been around since Gorgias at the tail-end of Greece’s golden age.

Not solipsism but R. Lanza’s Biocentrism.

 

[Noose001]

Tune into a car race or a track and field event. You’ll notice they start all the clocks at 0:00 and count up from there. This does not mean nothing existed before the race started.

Because time is not a thing but our way of experience and putting things to perspective.

If we want to have the experience of the duration of a car race, we can reset time to zero, not that it matters, it only means time within time and experience within experience, not an origin and it doesn’t affect our collective experience. A good example of time in origins is your birth. Your zero is placed at birth only for planning purposes but your birth is not necessarily your beginning. Your beginnings can not be p(name removed by moderator)ointed going back to the first human being that existed- so you are somehow eternal.

If we somehow p(name removed by moderator)oint your true zero then it means you don’t exist and you’ll never exist.

 

[Hume]

So if no one is around to hear it, the falling tree doesn’t make a sound. After all there’s no consciousness around to record it.

So not solipsism. More like macro-solipsism.

And my “true zero” I guess appears to be the big bang. As to what exists before or beyond our universe, we’ve no data.

None.

 

[Noose001]

And my “true zero” I guess appears to be the big bang. As to what exists before or beyond our universe, we’ve no data.

None.

Correct. No data for nothing doesn’t mean we can not explain the conditions before the beginning. How can you not know that it was dark before light appeared? If it wasn’t dark then light can not appear but more importantly, it is consciousness that makes that call by contrasting the conditions.

 

[Hume]

Correct. No data for nothing

We have no data for anything, including potential nothing.

Thus every answer is a blind stab.

 

[Hume]

Polite reminder that the physical laws governing the early universe were very likely different from our current Newtonian observations.

The rules governing then aren’t the same as those governing now. You have to be precise in your assumptions.

 

[Dan123]

How can you not know that it was dark before light appeared?

Is the second floor of a single story house dark?

 

[Freddy]

Noose001:

How can you not know that it was dark before light appeared?

Is the second floor of a single story house dark?

It could still be dark after light appeared. Just depends where you’re standing. In fact, it could be dark where the light originated if the origin of the light ceases to be and dark where the light is headed before it gets there.

So it can be dark and light at the same time.

The question should be: How can you not know it was dark before the light got there? Or: ‘How can you not know it was dark after the light left?’

And do these questions exist if no-one reads them…

 

[BlueKumul]

Witch hunting is not something Jesus would do. It didn’t happen because people was too Christian, but because people lacked Christian forgiveness. It had more to do with pagan superstition, or even Satanic deception.