Do you believe in evolution?

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Hume said:
Like physicists use quantum or Newtonian textbooks for different questions, the opening moments of our universe might require the same.
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It does. Einstein’s General Relativity breaks down with a quantum sized universe, as at the first moments of the Big Bang. Hence the current search for a theory of Quantum Gravity to replace it.
 
GLam1761 said:
Macro evolution
is an impossiblity since the law of Entrophy dictates that
things naturally goes DOWNHILL rather than improve if
not for intervention.
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Have You published this? Scientists appear to have overlooked this. Fame and fortune may await you!
 
rossum said:
Entropy sends things ‘downhill’ in general. However, if you expend some energy then you can travel uphill. The same with entropy. If you put energy into a localised system then entropy can reverse for as long as the energy is supplied.
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Quite correct. I guess his fame was short lived.
 
o_mlly said:
No, entropy does not reverse. The closed system was initially miss-specified.
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Your science knowledge is lacking. I agree that entropy is a difficult concept, but at least you should know the difference between isolated, closed and open systems and the impact of the different systems on entropy.

The earth is an open system. It has an external energy supply and can lose energy and matter to the surrounding universe. You need to revisit your notes on entropy.
 
rossum said:
Your science knowledge is lacking.
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Here we go again. Rossum appeals to his own authority on matters scientific. Let me correct you once again:

Definition of entropy​

1 thermodynamics : a measure of the unavailable energy in a closed thermodynamic system that is also usually considered to be a measure of the system’s disorder, that is a property of the system’s state, and that varies directly with any reversible change in heat in the system and inversely with the temperature of the system
 
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o_mlly said:
Here we go again. Rossum appeals to his own authority on matters scientific. Let me correct you once again:

Definition of entropy​

1 thermodynamics : a measure of the unavailable energy in a closed thermodynamic system that is also usually considered to be a measure of the system’s disorder, that is a property of the system’s state, and that varies directly with any reversible change in heat in the system and inversely with the temperature of the system
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I think you’re talking past each other. Entropy occurs in closed systems yes. The Earth is not a closed system. So ‘entropy’ is not something that affects whether evolution is impossible, as was claimed above by GLam1761.
 
Dan123 said:
Entropy occurs in closed systems yes.
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Entropy only occurs in closed systems, yes.
Dan123 said:
The Earth is not a closed system. So ‘entropy’ is not something that affects whether evolution is impossible, as was claimed above by GLam1761.
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Does the mechanics of evolution depend upon the environment on earth? Does the universe affect the environment on earth? If the answer to both is “Yes” then entropy as a law and evolution as a theory must be reconciled.
 
o_mlly said:
Does the mechanics of evolution depend upon the environment on earth? Does the universe affect the environment on earth? If the answer to both is “Yes” then entropy as a law and evolution as a theory must be reconciled.
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I’ll concede that when the Sun burns itself out in a few billion years, evolution on Earth will cease.
 
o_mlly said:
Entropy only occurs in closed systems, yes.
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No. Entropy can be measured in open, isolated and closed systems. It is a function of the number of possible microstates of the system:
{\displaystyle S=k_{\mathrm {B} }\ln \Omega .}
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In an isolated system, entropy must increase. The same is not true of open systems since external energy can enter the system and so decrease entropy locally. The earth is an open system for thermodynamic purposes.
 
rossum said:
The earth is an open system for thermodynamic purposes.
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Does the evolution theory of the diversity of life on earth exclude the sun? If not then the proper system specification for measuring entropy is the solar system. Does the evolution theory of the diversity of life exclude meteors? If not then the proper system specification for measuring entropy is the universe.
 
o_mlly said:
Does the evolution theory of the diversity of life on earth exclude the sun?
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What do you mean by that? No, evolution does not include solar physics, astrophysics or other related disciplines. Evolution assumes the existence of the sun and of the laws of Thermodynamics.

Entropy is physics, not biology. Evolution is biology. not physics.
 
rossum said:
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o_mlly:
Does the evolution theory of the diversity of life on earth exclude the sun?
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Evolution assumes the existence of the sun …
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Assumes? Evolution assumes many things never observed but the sun isn’t one of them. Wait, let me check … I’ll make a follow up observation … yes, there it is again. Confirmed.
 
If entropy is your authority rather than the Gospel, you are doing it wrong. Luke traces the ancestry of Jesus to Adam, so Adam must have existed.
 
o_mlly said:
Assumes? Evolution assumes many things never observed but the sun isn’t one of them. Wait, let me check … I’ll make a follow up observation … yes, there it is again. Confirmed.
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This is the best you can do? The sun did not evolve, so it is not covered by evolution, or do you think that the sun is a biological object.

Biology leaves the sun and other starts to astrophysics to deal with.

You have obviously run out of relevant points to make, and are now making irrelevant points.

The Bible assumes the existence of the Hebrew and Greek languages. Does that make the Bible false?
 
This seems to be a nonsense debate. Disorder need not tend to increase in a system into which energy is injected.
 
Rau said:
This seems to be a nonsense debate. Disorder need not tend to increase in a system into which energy is injected.
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Is this your first venture into a CA evolution thread? They all go this way after exhaustive back and forth on matters more of opinion than science.

A system into which energy is injected is no longer that system. The integrity of a any system becomes meaningless if one allows the importing of foreign agents. The system must then be re-specified to include the foreign matter as within rather than without.
 
o_mlly said:
Does the evolution theory of the diversity of life on earth exclude the sun? If not then the proper system specification for measuring entropy is the solar system. Does the evolution theory of the diversity of life exclude meteors? If not then the proper system specification for measuring entropy is the universe.
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The existence of the sun means the second law of thermodynamics isn’t an ‘issue’ for evolution. If we consider the system to include the sun, is the sun burning fuel? Yes, constantly, so the overall entropy of the system is increasing.
o_mlly said:
A system into which energy is injected is no longer that system. The integrity of a any system becomes meaningless if one allows the importing of foreign agents. The system must then be re-specified to include the foreign matter as within rather than without .
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I think this is the disconnect, you as the observer are allowed to look at systems in different contexts. It’s a tool for analysis. There arguably no genuinely closed systems but just like the gravity of a star across the galaxy technically has an effect on the movement of the moon, we can ignore it for all practical purposes.
 
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