Do you believe in limbo?

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1257 … God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His sacraments.

(Emphasis in the original, final sentence in a paragraph on the necessity of baptism.)

So, answer to the poll … I don’t know. I think that God does have some provision for the children who are lost to miscarriages and stillbirths … I did not deny those three children baptism, they were not candidates because one must be alive to receive the sacrament, and they were never alive outside my body.

The ordinary way is through the sacrament of baptism. Given a choice, no responsible parent would trust in the hope that God will provide an extraordinary way and treat baptism as of minor importance (or lesser importance than the party afterwards).

We cannot be putting Church teaching against Church teaching.
It is like pitting God against God.

By saying that since God is not bound by His sacraments—then the Church lied in CCC 1250.

I have a brother and a sister that were stillbirths. What gave my mother piece of mind—is that God is Just. They are not suffering the hell fires of the damned. My brother and sister may not be seeing the beatific vision----but God is seeing and caring for them.

Limbo is in the CCC----directly linked to the sections of the CCC that I posted.

CCC Second Edition

Pg. 817 — Limbo, 1261. See also Baptism;Funerals
Pg. 759 — Baptism
---------------- of infants, 403, 1231, 1233, 1250-52, 1282, 1290
 
Oops!! I voted before I read that you only wanted Catholics to vote, thus skewing the results…
(Never let it be said that I don’t have an opinion…)
That’s O.K., Zooey. You’re a potential Catholic.

Keep and spread the Faith.
 
I think God knows where the babies go and they will not go where He does not want them to be.
 

Look at the heading for CCC 1250–Infant baptism. It is in reference to infants-children who die without baptism. Only thru baptism can they receive the sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation. CCC 403 and 1250 makes this clear.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

The consequences of Adam’s sin for humanity

403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the “death of the soul”.291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292

The Baptism of infants

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. the Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51
Walking Home is absolutely correct to quote CCC 403 and 1250 in favor of limbo. If all infants dying without the sacrament of Baptism were to go to heaven, then the new catechism could hardly say that infant Baptism makes especially evident the gratuitousness of the grace of salvation.

The Catholic dogma of original sin, which the new catechism calls “an essential truth of the Faith” (CCC 388), is at the core of the limbo debate.

Even though I don’t believe that he reacts correctly to CCC 1261 (which should be understood in the sense of the hope of limbo, not the hope of the beatific vision), I urge everyone to read Robert T. Miller’s comments on limbo on the First Things blog (the date is October 17):

firstthings.com/

Keep and spread the Faith.
 
I always found the whole idea of limbo for unbaptized babies very unsettling. I especially believe the souls of all the aborted babies in recent history are in heaven.
 
I always found the whole idea of limbo for unbaptized babies very unsettling. I especially believe the souls of all the aborted babies in recent history are in heaven.

What is the difference between recent history and past history. Did God Change. Is it that in “recent” history the Churches teachings are up for grabs and to be interpreted which ever way anyone wants. Is it because We want to change God.
 
Walking Home is absolutely correct to quote CCC 403 and 1250 in favor of limbo. If all infants dying without the sacrament of Baptism were to go to heaven, then the new catechism could hardly say that infant Baptism makes especially evident the gratuitousness of the grace of salvation.

The Catholic dogma of original sin, which the new catechism calls “an essential truth of the Faith” (CCC 388), is at the core of the limbo debate.

Even though I don’t believe that he reacts correctly to CCC 1261 (which should be understood in the sense of the hope of limbo, not the hope of the beatific vision), I urge everyone to read Robert T. Miller’s comments on limbo on the First Things blog (the date is October 17):

firstthings.com/

Keep and spread the Faith.

I may have not worded my post correctly----but yes CCC 1261 is the hope for limbo.
 
We can discuss limbo for a very long time, yet limbo is really a concept or theory as to what might happen to thos unbaptised babies, and in a very real way limbo is an extremely important theory for social concerns.

Who here thinks the Pope will approve the removal of Limbo?

I do not think he will, I think it will change to something very limbo-like, but the new statement will retain all the features of Limbo. Why? Because if there is no consequence for not being baptised, then there is no reason to baptise.
 
I to must disagree with your poll. I do not believe a dead infant suffers from God’s wrath. But I do not actually know what happens. I believe the same for adult humans. Only God knows what happens.
 
I think some unbaptized babies go to limbo and amybe some others go to heaven if thier parents intended to baptize them. cardinal caijetin thought the same thing too.
 
We can discuss limbo for a very long time, yet limbo is really a concept or theory as to what might happen to those unbaptized babies, and in a very real way limbo is an extremely important theory for social concerns.

Who here thinks the Pope will approve the removal of Limbo?

I do not think he will. I think it will change to something very limbo-like, but the new statement will retain all the features of Limbo. Why? Because if there is no consequence for not being baptized, then there is no reason to baptize.
Tom is absolutely correct in the above post when he says this: if there is no consequence for not being baptized, then there is no reason to baptize.

This is pre-eminently true of infant Baptism, which, logically, would have to be suppressed as senseless if the Church were to teach that there is no limbo and that all unbaptized infants go to heaven. But infant Baptism cannot be suppressed. Ergo, it is impossible for the Church to say that all unbaptized babies go to heaven. There is in Catholic doctrine a logic, a coherence, and an interconnectedness that cannot be violated.

Tom is also right to raise the issue of social concerns, for the limbo controversy heavily affects the issue of abortion. If anti-limbo proponents were correct in saying that all aborted infants attain the beatific vision, then it would be impossible to evade the following conclusion: it is better to be aborted than to be born.

If you escape the abortionist’s suction machine and are born, then, according to the Catholic Church, you run the risk of reaching the age for mortal sin, committing it, dying in it unrepentant, and then going straight to hell. According to the anti-limbo proponents, however, if you don’t manage to escape the suction machine, then you are guaranteed the immediate possession of the beatific vision. Logically, in this scenario, abortion would be superior to birth as far as one’s eternal destiny is concerned. You don’t need a doctorate in theology to see the necessity of this conclusion: mere street wisdom tells you that a sure bet is better than a risky one.

Keep and spread the Faith.
 
Catholics who are allowing themselves to be confused about the eminent reasonableness of the theological deduction known as limbo should ponder the words of Pope Pius XII in his October 29, 1951, address to midwives:

"If what We have said up to now concerns the protection and care of natural life, much more so must it concern the supernatural life, which the newly born receives with Baptism. In the present economy there is no other way to communicate that life to the child who has not attained the use of reason. Above all, the state of grace is absolutely necessary at the moment of death; without it salvation and supernatural happiness—the beatific vision of God—are impossible. An act of love is sufficient for the adult to obtain sanctifying grace and to supply the lack of baptism; to the still unborn or newly born this way is not open. Therefore, if it is considered that charity to our fellowman obliges us to assist him in the case of necessity, then this obligation is so much the more important and urgent as the good to be obtained or the evil to be avoided is the greater, and in the measure that the needy person is incapable of helping or saving himself with his own powers; and so it is easy to understand the great importance of providing for the baptism of the child deprived of complete reason who finds himself in grave danger or at death’s threshold.

"Undoubtedly this duty binds the parents in the first place, but in case of necessity, when there is no time to lose or it is not possible to call a priest, the sublime office of conferring baptism is yours."


Here is a link for the entire text of Pius XII’s address:

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P511029.HTM

Please note Pius XII’s emphasis on the urgency of possessing the supernatural life, i.e., sanctifying grace. Without this higher kind of life, it is impossible to enter heaven and to enjoy the happiness of the beatific vision. The supernatural life is what the Faith is all about.

The horror of abortion is magnifed by this fact: in addition to depriving the unborn child of his or her natural life in this world, the abortionist deprives the child of supernatural life in the next world. This is why the Catholic Church teaches that abortion is an “unspeakable crime” (Vatican II, Gaudium et spes, section 51).

In post #31, I should have writtten: “There are in Catholic doctrine a logic, a coherence, and an interconnectedness that cannot be violated.” I suspect that the Devil, who wants to sow confusion among Catholics, may be trying to sabotage my pro-limbo posts!

Keep and spread the Faith.
 
I’m unhappy to see the high percentage of Catholics who are answering my limbo poll by saying that they believe that all unbaptized infants go to heaven. Their response reflects the post-Vatican II confusion affecting the human dimensions of the one true Church. (Please don’t think that I reject Vatican II! The answer to the confusion is to implement the real teachings of Vatican II!)

True, limbo is not a Catholic dogma. It is a theological deduction. But it is a deduction that flows logically and naturally from a Catholic dogma: the dogma that the souls of those leaving this world in original sin only are in some way punished for original sin in the next world. This dogma was taught by two ecumenical councils: Lyons II in 1274 (DS 858) and Florence in 1439 (DS 1306). Those who say that the souls of all unbaptized infants go to heaven are contradicting this dogma, for how can the beatific vision be considered a punishment?

More than five centuries after the Council of Florence, the Church cannot now contradict or revoke this Lyons II-Florence dogma. The Magisterium has no such power. Please recall what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches about the Magisterium: it can safeguard and clarify divine revelation, but never abandon any part of it. Please see section 86:

***“Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication, and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith.” ***

Where have the sources of revelation or the Church ever taught that all unbaptized infants go to heaven? :confused:

Keep and spread the Faith.
 
It does not contradict the dogma that those dying in original sin only go to Hell, but with lesser punishment.

Unbaptized prenatals and infants can go to heaven without a formal baptism, by means of a non-formal baptism. In this way, they die without the stain of original sin.

Ron
 
I’m unhappy to see the high percentage of Catholics who are answering my limbo poll by saying that they believe that all unbaptized infants go to heaven. Their response reflects the post-Vatican II confusion affecting the human dimensions of the one true Church. (Please don’t think that I reject Vatican II! The answer to the confusion is to implement the real teachings of Vatican II!)

True, limbo is not a Catholic dogma. It is a theological deduction.
It is more than a theological deduction. **Limbo is a doctrine of the Catholic faith. ** It is not a dogma, which is a doctrine that has been defined; but it is a doctrine that’s been taught since the earliest years of the Church.

It is almost certianly heresy to deny Limbo, just as it was a heresy for Pope John XXII to deny that the souls who die will not possess the beatific vision until after the resurrection of the body.

At the time, what Pope John XXII denied was not a defined dogma (the next Pope defined it). It was merely a doctrine that, like Limbo, had always been believed.

This error of John XXII, in which he denied a doctrine that had not yet been defined, has gone down in history as one of the few times that a Pope taught heresy. Of course, he renounced the error on his death bed.

The doctrine of Limbo is on the same level as the doctrine denied by John XXII in the 1300’s.

The only question about Limbo that is unanswered is whether the unbaptized go to the fires of hell (which is what St. Augustine, St. Robert Bellarmine, and many others taught), or whether they go to a state of natural happiness, which is what St. Thomas taught and what most people believed before we entered the great apostacy we are now going through, in which most deny the doctrine.

As you correctly pointed out, the Council of Forence and Lyons both taught that those who die in original sin only go to hell, but to be punished with different torments than those who have sinned.

If you read a few of the earlier posts, you will see that most people consider this - God sending a person who has committed no actual sin to hell - contrary to God’s “justice and mercy”… yet it is a dogma.

In an article written by Fr. Harrison, after quoting official magisterial text after magisterial text supporting Limbo, he concludes by saying:
Fr. Harrison: “It should be clear from the above survey of relevant Catholic magisterial statements that those who now talk about Limbo as only ever having been a mere “hypothesis”, rather than a doctrine, are giving a very misleading impression of the state of the question. They are implying by this that the pre-Vatican II Church traditionally held, or at least implicitly admitted, that an alternate ‘hypothesis’ for unbaptized infants was their attainment of eternal salvation — Heaven. Nothing could be further from the truth. Limbo for unbaptized infants was indeed a theological “hypothesis”; but the only approved alternate hypothesis was not Heaven, but very mild hellfire as well as exclusion from the beatific vision! In short, while Limbo as distinct from very mild hellfire was a ‘hypothetical’ destiny for unbaptized infants, their eternal exclusion from Heaven (with or without any ‘pain of sense’) — at least after the proclamation of the Gospel, and apart from the ‘baptism of blood’ of infants slaughtered out of hatred for Christ — this was traditional Catholic doctrine, not a mere hypothesis. No, it was never dogmatically defined. But the only question is whether the doctrine was infallible by virtue of the universal and ordinary magisterium, or merely "authentic”.
 
Theologically, I think it is possible, but I can’t perceive of a Heaven in which I won’t get to hold the baby I lost in miscarriage. I don’t know if that is a purely emotional response.

However, if I who love imperfectly can’t conceive of it, then how can God who loves perfectly not have these little ones around him?

:confused:
This is where I am at on the issue also. How could God who is perfect love, and perfect justice allow an innocent to be denied the beautific vision due to the sin of another?

As the Church knows, God chooses to save through the sacraments but He is not bound to them for nothing is impossible with God.

I voted, “I don’t know” as well as #5 because there was no answer that said I don’t know but I hope for heaven and can’t imagine anything else.
 
This is where I am at on the issue also. How could God who is perfect love, and perfect justice allow an innocent to be denied the beautific vision due to the sin of another?
Those who have had a miscarriage should consider that Limbo is a state of very great happiness, such as the garden of Eden before the fall. It is not a bad place and those there are perfectly happy.

Maybe God, in His infinite wisdom knew that they would grow up, fall away from the faith and end in hell? Therefore, in his goodness and mercy, he allowed them to go to Limbo?

I’m sure there are a lot of souls in hell who would be happy to trade places with those in Limbo.

We have to be careful that we don’t allow sentement to effect, or determine, what we believe.
 
It is more than a theological deduction. **Limbo is a doctrine of the Catholic faith. **It is not a dogma, which is a doctrine that has been defined; but it is a doctrine that’s been taught since the earliest years of the Church.
As much as I respect the United States Marine Corps, and as much as I appreciate its support on limbo (👍 ), I must respectfully disagree with calling limbo a “doctrine of the Catholic faith.” It is a theological deduction and hypothesis that logically flow from a Catholic dogma, i.e., the next-world punishment of those who die in original sin only. I defend limbo in that sense, and, in that sense, I maintain that it cannot be “abolished” or “dropped.”

One reason why the Magisterium never elevated limbo to the status of a doctrine of the Catholic Faith is the fact that God has not revealed to us all the details of the next life. We must respect the divine silence on this matter. Another reason is that many Catholic teachers (e.g., St. Augustine) have believed–mistakenly and unnecessarily, in my view–that the souls of unbaptized children are to some extent punished with the pains of hell. In deference to those teachers, the Church never imposed limbo as the mandatory view of the matter.

In fact, when CCC 1261 says that we can hope that there is a “way of salvation” for unbaptized infants, I believe that that statement should be understood as meaning that Catholics do *not *have to agree with St. Augustine’s personal pessimism. In other words, they may believe in limbo, an unending *natural *happiness that is a “way,” or kind, of salvation.

Mislabeling limbo as a Catholic doctrine (rather than as a justifiable and valuable deduction that cannot be abandoned) unwittingly hands ammunition to the enemy–which leathernecks, of course, shouldn’t want to do–for the anti-limbo troops can easily show that no Pope or ecumenical council has ever issued a statement saying that Catholics must believe in the existence of a state called limbo.

Keep and spread the Faith.
 
I have been reading to what everybody here is saying about Limbo.

BTW I voted for belief in Limbo.

But there is something that needs to be clarified, I feel, to those on both sides of this thread.

Limbo is a TEMPORARYstate. The souls there that are in Limbo do not stay there for eternity.

You might ask how they get out then since we can’t baptize them as we would our born children. For all you know the Pope might publish a prayer for Baptism of the Unborn.

Also I would humbly ask that those who say they go to Hell would make a greater effort to be more specific. Technically Purgatory could be considered part of Hell in that its not Heaven but we still use the term Purgatory.

Limbo is essential to our faith as it reinforces the need for baptism.
 
I voted “don’t know” but my real answer is that I believe that God’s mercy and love would require each of them to be afforded the opportunity to choose for God or against Him. Thus I believe all such babies will end up either in heaven or in hell, depending on what they freely choose.
 
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