Do you believe people are born gay?

[stringbeanduck]

People are born mentally disabled, physically disabled, with extra bones, to few bones, the ability to learn quickly, the ability to learn slowly, photographic memory, blind, deaf, ect… Still some people are born with male chromosomes, but female body parts and vice versa. Does it not make sense that some people can be born with the proper chromosomes and body parts, but be attracted to the same sex? I fully believe it is possible for a person to be attracted to the same sex. I also believe that people choose to be gay for reasons unknown. Is it right to act upon these feelings? No, hence the CCC

Yeah, yeah I know there are some people who thought they are gay, found out they weren’t, got married, had kids, and lived happily ever after, but as a one who likes to study the scientific field it wrong to extrapolate that data from a few cases to the whole lot of them.

We don’t know how everybody ticks, only He.

 

[crazzeto]

First of all for those of you who are catholic (as am I) and claim that homosexuality is a sin, need to go back and re-read the catechism. Homosexuality itself is not a sin…homosexual acts ARE.

We, as loving catholics are supposed to offer support to homosexuals, not discriminate against them, etc. You know, love they neighbor…

As to whether they are born with this affliction…no one knows for sure. I totally agree with the poster who mentioned those who lead a most righteous life while bearing a heavy cross will be greatly rewarded in heaven.

I second this being a terrific post.

 

[starlight101]

I’m fairly sure people are born gay. All the gay people I know and have ever met have said they knew from a very young age that they were gay. I don’t think homosexuals can choose to be gay, and I don’t think you can make a child gay (do children of gay couples always end up gay?). if it was due to parental (name removed by moderator)ut, then what about the identical twins, one is straight the other gay? I’m a confused semi-christian.

 

[NoWhereMan]

I’m fairly sure people are born gay. All the gay people I know and have ever met have said they knew from a very young age that they were gay. I don’t think homosexuals can choose to be gay, and I don’t think you can make a child gay (do children of gay couples always end up gay?). if it was due to parental (name removed by moderator)ut, then what about the identical twins, one is straight the other gay? I’m a confused semi-christian.

I believe they are born that way also, I have met many many many gay men, & a lot of them married, & also Catholic, how do I know, I asked. As a child growing up, I was different, everyone realized it but me, I was shunned, made fun of, left out of things, I remember having sexual attraction toward the older boys & men at a very young age. As I grew older, things did not change, I was lonely & miserable, no friends etc. I remember standing on the street praying to God to help me , I dont know how it happened, but I was led to the gay life, it seemed like I finally found acceptance, & fit somewhere in this world. It was the first time I felt any acceptance in my life. This is a sad story, I wouldnt wish it on anyone, it was & is indeed a heavy cross to bear.I wish so many times that I was born so called normal, but maybe that was normal for me. There are so many many of us throughout this world, & throughout history, we can`t be an accident, God made us for some purpose unbeknown to us. There are a lot of mysteries that surround us

 

[Dousias]

Well, neither we nor the church can do the judging, I think that’s the disconnect here. And I’m speaking as one who replyed to this thread saying homosexuality is indeed sinful, and that no matter how natural it may seem to the parties involved it is sinful.

By my saying homosexuality is sinful I am niether judging, nor admonitishing a homosexual couple. I’m not sending them to hell, nor am I trying to because I can’t. Only God can make the judgment. What I can and must do, what we all can and must do, how ever is to admit to reality. Close study of Sacrade Scripture and Sacrade Tradition is very clear, homosexuality is sinful, it’s sinful in the same context as another thread running in this very forum about a Divorouced couple who hate eachother meeting for regular sex even if they’re not contracepting. Both with homosexuality, and in the senario I just described the relationship isn’t for God in any capacity. The sex (we assume there will be) isn’t for God in any capacity, it is purely selfish in both cases. Any act which is motivated purely out of selfishness is sinful, particularly when it deals with Gods natural law.

So when I, and the rest of us I would imagin, post here saying “but it’s still sinful”, that is us demonstrating our love of homosexual persons by reminding them that the act is sinful and will lead to seperation from God.

I hope this helps you understand our position, God Bless!

Hi Crazzeto,

My perspective lies outside the faith’s worldview so of course it’s going to be radically different than most opinions here on this list. It is my hope to offer an alternate view without offending my fellow users.

A large portion of my opinions on human sexuality are based on the premise that we are human animals with several millions of years of genetically driven procreative drives. Wait! I’m not equating us to lower animals, just relating those drives that seem to have the same general purpose.

The church teaches that sexuality is special and lists many ways that it’s unapproved by church doctrine. It then assigns the term “sin” to unapproved actions and condemns them. Then it offers a path, marriage, that seems to approve of the very same acts that it condemns under different circumstances. I believe right is right and wrong is wrong. If something is wrong and immoral, then it is always immoral and wrong. Do you see the problem this represents? If it is moral and right, then it is always moral and right.

“Any act which is motivated purely out of selfishness is sinful”

I don’t get this statement at all. No action that I can think of fails to impact others on one level or another, no matter how large or small. I fail to see how a gay couple are acting purely in their own self-interest.

Aside from my opinions and church doctrine, there is the reality of what we wish to create in terms of social structure. Is it better for society to accommodate gays through marriage or not? Society benefits in multiple ways when it’s embraced and we lose those benefits when it’s not allowed.

Blessed be, Dousias

 

[Elizabeth502]

Staying within the parameters of the question here (which didn’t ask about “judging” and all that) ,

I agree with post #2, which accords with similar reading I have done.

I do believe that humans can be born with inclinations which may in some cases predispose (and predispose strongly even), but that these predispositions are not determinant. The very early years (my reading confirms) are critical in shaping sexuality. If the proper affirming role models are not there (“Nature Abhors a Vacuum”), an invitation, an impulse to seek an alternative, sets in as a reaction. Later, reaction combined with opportunity results in (positive) attraction, but the attraction ultimately is the end link in a chain which begins with a deficit. Attraction combined with pubescent hormones and the corresponding natural adolescent introspection, impressionability, hunger for peer relationships, and search for identity, all coalesce to create a conscious sexual “identity” which is then very difficult to reverse at that stage. (Not impossible, but it would seem from my reading, an uphill battle, very painful, and in most cases not successful.)

If it is also true that excess (female) hormones in our water have aggravated innate homosexual inclinations, that causes me a great deal of anger, as later self-identifying as gay deprives one of the primary joys of life: natural parenthood. And for a Catholic, it consigns the person to life-long celibacy if he wants to remain a practicing Catholic. Deprived of sexual expression and natural heterosexual parenthood derived from a loving sexual union, combined with living as a minority seeking recognition, are not states that I would describe as “gay,” but rather, sad or at least unfortunate. I hope I don’t get flamed for that. I do not mean to offend. I mean that it must be no picnic to feel that that is one’s “identity,” if that is how one thinks of it. (Many gays do.) That is, it would not be a picnic if one has traditional values, feels a sense of belonging to the Catholic Church, etc.

I don’t want to get off on political topics, as that is not the OP’s question. I have read recently in more than one source that gay males have more physiological indications at birth that would tend toward later full development of homosexuality than females do. Hence, the aside about hormones & the water.

I’m all for a spectrum of male-female expression, and male-female roles, but those two things are not necessarily indelible markers for sexual orientation, which is different. A man can feel “effeminate” from birth and still be heterosexual. And the corresponding principle is true for females.

 

[Jaggermeister]

I do agree with what you all are saying about people not being born gay but being brought up to become gay. And I do know it is a sin (Leviticus 18:22, 20:13).

But, can gay people be forgiven? Is there salvation for them? When does being gay become a sin? (ie, is it when 2 men sleep together, kiss each other or just being attracted to other men).

 

[CarlaOLS]

NOT ONLY are People NOT BORN GAY,
that fact is the reason there is so much HOPE for overcoming same sex attraction!.

Honestly, there is so much ignorance and misinformation on this one point it makes me cry.:bighanky:

I found a new website that seems to center entirely on education of the origins of SSA.

ssahope.com

ssahope.com/same_sex_attraction_education.html

I have met several ex-gays and read and heard dozens of testimonials - I also know several gay identified men and women. I can click off the factors that contributed to their gay identity. There is NO DOUBT in my mind IT IS ABSOLUTELY possible to overcome attractions to the same gender and everyone should know it!

 

[djeter]

The biblical view of the sexes is included in this scriptural exegesis of Genesis by John Randall Sachs here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/10/29/human-beings-in-god%e2%80%99s-image-and-likeness/

It is a marvelous piece and it speaks to one of the most distorted of secular images of the Biblical, human beings in the likeness or image of God and the relationship between man and woman.

The diabolists in our midst (another post on the site) live their lives and conduct themselves believing in such secularist nonsense as sexual orientation defining who they are. It is sad but untrue – the Church, as well as the Bible in Genesis, teaches us that we are so much more than what our sexual orientation is.

The more you can familiarize yourself with what Sachs is explaining here, the better we can refute these secular ideologies and show people what they truly are in Jesus Christ.

regards,

dj

 

[chrysostim83]

NOT ONLY are People NOT BORN GAY,
that fact is the reason there is so much HOPE for overcoming same sex attraction!.

Honestly, there is so much ignorance and misinformation on this one point it makes me cry.:bighanky:

I found a new website that seems to center entirely on education of the origins of SSA.

ssahope.com

ssahope.com/same_sex_attraction_education.html

I have met several ex-gays and read and heard dozens of testimonials - I also know several gay identified men and women. I can click off the factors that contributed to their gay identity. There is NO DOUBT in my mind IT IS ABSOLUTELY possible to overcome attractions to the same gender and everyone should know it!

Perhaps we should reformulate Godwin’s law to read that in a thread about sexual orientation, when someone suggests the idea that “therapy can change people from gay to straight,” the conversation is over.

By all means, check out the site CarlaOLS recommends, but also keep in mind that according to the best review of the issue so far, there is absolutely no evidence that therapy can change someone’s sexual orientation. See apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/therapeutic-response.pdf

There is also a certain amount of anecdotal evidence (backed up by a plausible theoretical explanation) that this kind of therapy can harm some of the people who try it.

In any case, the bottom line is that why some people have same sex attractions is totally unrelated to whether they can eliminate these attractions with the help of a therapist.

 

[djeter]

Perhaps we should reformulate Godwin’s law to read that in a thread about sexual orientation, when someone suggests the idea that “therapy can change people from gay to straight,” the conversation is over.

By all means, check out the site CarlaOLS recommends, but also keep in mind that according to the best review of the issue so far, there is absolutely no evidence that therapy can change someone’s sexual orientation. See apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/therapeutic-response.pdf

There is also a certain amount of anecdotal evidence (backed up by a plausible theoretical explanation) that this kind of therapy can harm some of the people who try it.

In any case, the bottom line is that why some people have same sex attractions is totally unrelated to whether they can eliminate these attractions with the help of a therapist.

Article in the Wall Street Journal on the struggle against “gay affirming therapy” with commentary here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/08/18/faith-and-sexual-identity/

dj

 

[NoWhereMan]

People are born gay , just as they are born with other maladies. Mental illness, deafness, blindness etc etc, could go on & on. There are some kids who are so sissified, like little girls instead of little boys & vice versa, , there are those who are born with both sex organs, what are these people to do, they are usually not accepted, where do they go, where do they fit, they are ostracized. They are born for a reason, & its not because they are called to holiness, many of them across this world dont even know about holiness, so that kills that idea, & the Fact they they are sexual beings, they are never supposed to have sex in their whole life, aint gonna happen. They are here for a reason, about one tenth of the population or more is Homosexual, let alone all the Bisexuals

 

[djeter]

People are born gay

Probably untrue and certainly unproven, NoWhereMan. There is no reputable science to back that statement up. This does not rule out the possibility that there is a genetic component to homosexuality but rather suggests that “sexual orientation is inherited, if at all, in a complex manner.”

If you wish to read some solid research in highly politicized field, I suggest “Causes of Homosexuality: A Christian Appraisal of the Data” by Andrew J. Sodergren, M.S., who is a scholar at the John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family.

You can find it here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/causes-of-homosexuality-a-christian-appraisal-of-the-data/

In Christ,

dj

 

[CarlaOLS]

Chrys- one must consider the source. The APA is so tainted on this issue it’s not even funny. They caved 30 years ago to gay lobby pressure and have never looked back. That’s why NARTH was born. It’s filled with professionals, psychiatrists, doctors, psychologists and socialogists that all have studied the issue of homosexuality. Most have first hand experience or knowledge of individuals overcoming their SSA. The APA has a dismal record of studying homosexuals. Infact, they don’t. Zero zip.
As to the APA’s so called report:

NARTH’s president Joseph Nicolosi strongly disagreed. “A scientific debate won’t be settled through arm’s length discussion,” he said. “Let’s open up the debate and look at the evidence scientifically. There is indeed a body of evidence in the literature supporting the reality of change, and NARTH’s ongoing research continues to build on that prior evidence.”

“Instead of studying reorientation therapy by listening to both sides, the APA cancelled a debate at its Chicago meeting which would have looked at the ethicality and effectiveness of treatment,” he added. “We’re challenging the APA to dialogue with us and to listen to people who have made the shift. Instead, they’re simply shutting out their voices.”

Calling reparative therapy the “laetrile of the mental-health professions,” prominent gay psychiatrist Jack Drescher, M.D., said reparative therapy should be treated like that now-debunked cancer treatment. Dr. Drescher was one of the psychiatrists who crafted the latest A.P.A. statement.

Dr. Nicolosi said the new A.P.A. statement is evidence that gay activists have positioned themselves as spokesmen for the psychiatric profession. “Naturally,” he said, “this issue is of great political and personal importance to gay activists. But science can’t be led by the interests of any one group on any divisive issue. Nor can it allow that group to shut down the scientific discussion.”

I also want to say emphatically that finding out the whys (plural beacuse there are always a number of conspiring factors) IS absolutely connected to overcoming SSA. SSA is not the flip side of the normal heterosexual attraction that we feel. Any ex-gay can confirm that, but he/she couldn’t when they were blinded by and slave to their emotions and needs. Forgive the analogy, (they always fall short) but a cleptomaniac typically has NO idea why he takes pens everytime he picks one up. YET after he is helped or helps himself to dig deeper and discover why he does it, he is better able to control the impulses that drive him. Eventually, if he doesn’t give up, he is cured. He thinks before he acts, and sets about fulfilling the need he has in legitmate ways he has learned.

Please watch this video of an ex-gay I personally know.
ONE MAN’S JOURNEY
Gary tells us by nuisance he means the attractions are now no more than swatting an occasional fly. He continues to heal and to grow, as do all of us Christians.

Peace

 

[Flopfoot]

People may or may not be born gay, I’m pretty sure we don’t have enough scientific evidence to support either side. IMO some gays are born that way and some aren’t. I’m a Catholic btw. Anyway from the point of view of moral theology, it doesn’t really matter whether people are born gay or become that way. For whatever reason they are gay, they are under no obligation to try and change their orientation. Nor are they bound to any special rules. Whatever acts are forbidden for gay people are forbidden for straight people also.

 

[Lynxdk]

Chrys- one must consider the source. The APA is so tainted on this issue it’s not even funny. They caved 30 years ago to gay lobby pressure and have never looked back. That’s why NARTH was born.

NARTH is about as fact based as the Church of Scientology. They also use the same sort of rhetorical claims in their arguments.

 

[chrysostim83]

CarlaOLS—

While I happen to believe that NARTH’s claims are false and even dangerous, the point of my last post was only to show people where they can explore the APA’s claims. This is important, because in my experience, folks normally side with one these organisations without considering the arguments of the other. The way they dismiss the claims of the other is invariably linked to its alleged political motivations. Thus, someone who sides with the APA will forget about NARTH because of the latter’s links to the Christian Right.

The issue of where homosexuality comes from really is distinct from the question of change. There is no way, for example, that anyone could forget his or her mother tongue, even though speech is clearly a learned behavior. Or again, there is no way for someone to unlearn his or her handedness. Thus, it is quite possible that sexual orientation is immutable, regardless of whether is comes from nature or nurture. I’ll leave it to you to find examples that show it might be changeable no matter where it comes from.

I don’t want to derail this thread, but I want to add, as regards anecdotal evidence that people have become ex-gay, that it needs to be weighed against anecdotal evidence that the attempt to change has been ineffective or harmful. It would be easy for me to give you names of people who have attempted this kind of therapy and failed to change despite their best efforts; I could also give you the name of someone who suffered from major depression and suicide ideation after attempting to change.

 

[Dr_MWJ]

Homosexual protests demanding gay marriage equality are adult versions of temper tantrums by little children playing house. In order to secure equal rights and thereby be entitled to receive equal benefits, one must bring to the table equal (name removed by moderator)uts. Homosexuals and lesbians cannot bring to the* marriage table *any children of their own creation. The children of a homosexual marriage can only come from a heterosexual union. Never in five-plus millenia of recorded history has it been noted that two males or two females have conceived. To be born gay ultimately means that the human race was created to exterminate itself. That is intellectual drivel of the first order! In short, homosexuals are demanding equal outputs for unequal (name removed by moderator)uts.

 

[camerong]

CarlaOLS—

While I happen to believe that NARTH’s claims are false and even dangerous, the point of my last post was only to show people where they can explore the APA’s claims. This is important, because in my experience, folks normally side with one these organisations without considering the arguments of the other. The way they dismiss the claims of the other is invariably linked to its alleged political motivations. Thus, someone who sides with the APA will forget about NARTH because of the latter’s links to the Christian Right.

The issue of where homosexuality comes from really is distinct from the question of change. There is no way, for example, that anyone could forget his or her mother tongue, even though speech is clearly a learned behavior. Or again, there is no way for someone to unlearn his or her handedness. Thus, it is quite possible that sexual orientation is immutable, regardless of whether is comes from nature or nurture. I’ll leave it to you to find examples that show it might be changeable no matter where it comes from.

I don’t want to derail this thread, but I want to add, as regards anecdotal evidence that people have become ex-gay, that it needs to be weighed against anecdotal evidence that the attempt to change has been ineffective or harmful. It would be easy for me to give you names of people who have attempted this kind of therapy and failed to change despite their best efforts; I could also give you the name of someone who suffered from major depression and suicide ideation after attempting to change.

Well-put. The issue is not whether one is born gay, or learns to be gay–“nature vs. nurture” is commonly misunderstood as applied to this topic. The real question that most people have, and I suspect the OP had, is whether someone is *involuntarily *gay.

As to the anecdotal evidence, I think there is undeniable evidence that some people (probably most) cannot change no matter how hard they try, no matter how pure and Godly their morals, etc. And there appears to be very strong anecdotal evidence that some people CAN change, or chose. It is worth noting that gay-rights advocates do not dispute the latter assertion. To dispute the former intolerably strains credibility, as it ignores an overwhelming body of scientific, psychological, and anecdotal evidence.

 

[Lynxdk]

While an anecdote should never take the place of facts, as I homosexual, I will tell you in brief what I know. First of all, I grew up in a very loving and functional household and both of my parents have always been there for me. We have had no major family problems ever. Secondly, I can never remember not being attracted to other men. I have never been physically attracted to women, nor have I been interested in being in a long term relationship with them. Third, through prayer and my own efforts I tried unsuccessfully since I was 13 to change my sexuality - no luck there though (yet, at least). Fourth, I am a faithful Catholic, and am very educated in the faith. I have been very interested in Catholicism since I was young, and for a while considered being a priest (until I decided that was probably not very prudent for now).

I have done a research paper for one of my classes, and while I don’t have it available with me at this time, I can say that my findings indicated that people just really don’t know what causes it. The ideas that a dysfunctional family, overbearing mother/not there father, being abused, and etc. are not very favoured by the scholarly community as far as I could see. At the same time, there is little valuable evidence to support that it is genetic. There are recent studies underway that may indicate a genetic predisposition passed down with the mother’s X chromosome. However, as far as I could tell, these are not anywhere close to being definitive studies, and more work is being done. My personal theory developed through my research though is that people have a genetic predisposition, and then something in their environment will “pull the trigger”.

I also must say that “opinions” on this issue are really irrelevant, and perhaps even dangerous. It is unclear to scientists what causes homosexuality, and people should simply accept that to be the case. It is foolish to say, “I think X.” If there is no evidence to support what you are saying, then your “opinion” is pretty much useless. The Church recognizes that the cause is unknown, and we should maintain this open-mindedness until science gives us more definitive answers.

I just went back and read this. This is one of the most clear ways I’ve seen expressed over the issue. I have spent years of my life asking to be changed and be like “normal” people, but I only ever found peace in learning to accept myself as God made me, instead of trying to change myself to fit other peoples idealistic beliefs. You can’t fix me, because I’m not broken; God doesn’t make mistakes.