Do you believe people are born gay?

[Magnus1981]

According to the Catholic Medical Association, people are not born gay.

narth.com/docs/hope.html

Also, through a non-scientific vote, gay activists had Homosexuality removed as a disorder from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual in 1973.

Peace,
Ed

What is also interesting to note is that the World Health Organisation considered homosexuality as a psychological disorder until 1992. The only reason it was “overturned” was due to pressure from equal rights lobbyists and gay activists.

 

[Lynxdk]

What is also interesting to note is that the World Health Organisation considered homosexuality as a psychological disorder until 1992. The only reason it was “overturned” was due to pressure from equal rights lobbyists and gay activists.

It’s interesting how people still jump on that bandwagon because it supports their personal beliefs. It was taken off because it’s not a mental illness.

 

[John_Pascendi]

First of all for those of you who are catholic (as am I) and claim that homosexuality is a sin, need to go back and re-read the catechism. Homosexuality itself is not a sin…homosexual acts ARE.

We, as loving catholics are supposed to offer support to homosexuals, not discriminate against them, etc. You know, love they neighbor…

As to whether they are born with this affliction…no one knows for sure. I totally agree with the poster who mentioned those who lead a most righteous life while bearing a heavy cross will be greatly rewarded in heaven.

…then tell me…would you force the boy scouts to recruit or hire or let join those who are turned on sexually only by those of the same sex…in other words, do you believe that homosexuals should be allowed to be boyscout masters and thus go on over nite field trips with the young boys? I used to tell my students…"I dont care what you do to your self,(in a way) from friday nite to sunday nite…re juice yourself up,drugs,booze etc…but if on monday morning your still stoned and you drive a school bus with my kids on it,I am…well;,kinder concerned…so freedom extends only as far as your clenched fist and my cute little nose…get the picture?.’…your other points well taken…Pas

 

[aussie_jaz]

…then tell me…would you force the boy scouts to recruit or hire or let join those who are turned on sexually only by those of the same sex…in other words, do you believe that homosexuals should be allowed to be boyscout masters and thus go on over nite field trips with the young boys? I used to tell my students…"I dont care what you do to your self,(in a way) from friday nite to sunday nite…re juice yourself up,drugs,booze etc…but if on monday morning your still stoned and you drive a school bus with my kids on it,I am…well;,kinder concerned…so freedom extends only as far as your clenched fist and my cute little nose…get the picture?.’…your other points well taken…Pas

firstly homosexuals and peadiphiles are two different things. secondly why are the students driving the school bus ?

 

[Kevin42]

…then tell me…would you force the boy scouts to recruit or hire or let join those who are turned on sexually only by those of the same sex…in other words, do you believe that homosexuals should be allowed to be boyscout masters and thus go on over nite field trips with the young boys? I used to tell my students…"I dont care what you do to your self,(in a way) from friday nite to sunday nite…re juice yourself up,drugs,booze etc…but if on monday morning your still stoned and you drive a school bus with my kids on it,I am…well;,kinder concerned…so freedom extends only as far as your clenched fist and my cute little nose…get the picture?.’…your other points well taken…Pas

You know, I was a boyscout, and my friends mother was one of the group leaders. She went on camping trips and we spent alot of time of at her house. And guess what, she never once molested us. She is attracted to men, yet somehow she never once did anything immoral. On the other hand, you seem to be implying that somehow homosexual men are all pedophiles and if you let be around kids, they will sexually molest them or something. As a homosexual myself, I am extremely offended and hurt that you would imply that I cannot be trusted to be around kids (especially young boys). You know, it’s bad enough that being gay, I get to struggle with homosexuality and people talking about how I am a bad person on a daily basis - but it’s even worse when people like you say that simply for being a homosexual (NOT A PEDOPHILE) that I shouldn’t get to be around kids. For your information, I love being around children and I would sooner have someone shoot me than for me to harm a child in any way. I will probably never get to have children, but I still want to work with children one day…maybe as a teacher or something…I want to be able to experience on a personal level how it is to be there and help children grow and learn. For you to imply that I should not be allowed that is because I am a homosexual and by default probably a pedophile is ignorant, hurtful, discriminatory, and calumnious. Statements like this are why so many homosexuals hate and feel completely unwanted by Christianity.

 

[Dousias]

So all you people out there that are trying to take hope away from people struggling with SSA should seriously look at which side you are on. Are you on the side of holiness? Or are you siding with satan who is desparately trying to drag people into the pit? Or perhaps if you admitted that change was possible, you would have to re-examine your own life.

Hi John,

I tend to look at the straight/gay debate from a Pantheistic/Spiritual secularist perspective so my opinions differ from the mainstream out here. The question of whether people are born one way or another is basically irrelevant to the fact that people can be attracted to either gender and be happy with that choice.

This issue, and the marriage issue connected with it seems to create a big schism between the church and the secular world. It seems to be such a personal choice issue that should be left to the individuals themselves.

Is the church spending too much time and energy peering into people’s bedrooms?

Blessed be, Dousias.

 

[edwest2]

Hi John,

I tend to look at the straight/gay debate from a Pantheistic/Spiritual secularist perspective so my opinions differ from the mainstream out here. The question of whether people are born one way or another is basically irrelevant to the fact that people can be attracted to either gender and be happy with that choice.

This issue, and the marriage issue connected with it seems to create a big schism between the church and the secular world. It seems to be such a personal choice issue that should be left to the individuals themselves.

Is the church spending too much time and energy peering into people’s bedrooms?

Blessed be, Dousias.

I think the better question is why kids in Massachussetts are being forced to read gay storybooks. The State has set up a system to normalize homosexual behavior. This is forced indoctrination. Leave the kids alone. Wait until they are mature enough to understand and don’t force their parents out of it. “This is not a parental notification issue.” It certainly is.

Happiness is not the end goal here. Serving the flesh leads to corruption. No one is perfect. God knows, I’m not.

Peace,
Ed

 

[pzona]

Many people believe being gay is a sin simply because it is in the Bible. However, one must consider the idea that the Bible only says this because it was written by men (not God) from a primitive culture which did not understand homosexuality.

Homosexuality is not only present in humans. The behavior that characterizes it has been observed in many species of animals (which suggests it is a positive evolutionary trait, which is another matter entirely), so are these animals sinning?

I base my ideas on this topic not on science, but on personal experience. Sexuality is developed. It isn’t an intrinsic property and it certainly isn’t a decided behavior. Sexuality is developed through experience, environment, personality, etc. If God said that this is a sin, then God is unreasonable, and I have to disagree with Him.

 

[teachccd]

Many people believe being gay is a sin simply because it is in the Bible. However, one must consider the idea that the Bible only says this because it was written by men (not God) from a primitive culture which did not understand homosexuality.

Our God is a God of order. He ordered the periodic table of elements, the cosmos, cells, and so on. Homosexuality is a disorder. That can be visually ascertained by observing how the reproductive process works. Our reproductive organs are not ordered for same sex intercourse. Perhaps the writers of scripture did not understand the complexities of many medical disorders but they still had the concept that they were physical disorders.

Homosexuality is not only present in humans. The behavior that characterizes it has been observed in many species of animals (which suggests it is a positive evolutionary trait, which is another matter entirely), so are these animals sinning?

Animals do not have eternal souls and were not given the gift of reason that humans have. Animals are incapable of sinning since their thought process cannot know God to the extent that we do nor can they reject God. Yes, animals eat their young but I find it hard to justify a human doing that with your argument.

I base my ideas on this topic not on science, but on personal experience. Sexuality is developed. It isn’t an intrinsic property and it certainly isn’t a decided behavior. Sexuality is developed through experience, environment, personality, etc. If God said that this is a sin, then God is unreasonable, and I have to disagree with Him.

I like that." If God says that this is a sin, …I have to disagree with Him." Well you can disagree with the Creator of the universe and the Creator of yourself but that won’t take you very far. God is not unreasonable and that is exactly why He is God. Each individual is known by God and is judged better than we could ever even judge ourselves. God is love. He is mercy. We are to know and follow His will but we are to never presume His judgment or His mercy. We are to, first and foremost, do anything within our power to return the Love that He gives to us and know that God would find anything to find us in eternal life with Him.

So, yes, homosexual acts are sinful (not homosexual orientation) because they promote a disordered use of our sexuality and therefore cannot align with the will of God. It is a cross to bear no different than a man born with a physical disablity but in this case they would have to overcome this disorder in the choices that they make…teachccd

 

[Dousias]

I think the better question is why kids in Massachussetts are being forced to read gay storybooks. The State has set up a system to normalize homosexual behavior. This is forced indoctrination. Leave the kids alone. Wait until they are mature enough to understand and don’t force their parents out of it. “This is not a parental notification issue.” It certainly is.

Happiness is not the end goal here. Serving the flesh leads to corruption. No one is perfect. God knows, I’m not.

Peace,
Ed

Hay Ed,

I think schools are in the business of teaching, not moralizing. Being gay as a kid has to be pretty tough, don’t you think?

“Serving the flesh?” What on earth does that mean? We are here to be joyful, live in love and be the creative arm of God herself! (Yes, we really are perfect. Especially in God’s eyes!)

Blessed be, Dousias.

 

[CarlaOLS]

Lynx - Know first that you are in my daily prayers. I tell you this so you will understand how much I love you.

I would like to clarify the term “reaparative therapy.” Reparative therapy has become a catch-all term in this debate on the side of gay activists, who very often have little understanding of what course is involved for a person determined to control and overcome same sex attraction. There is NO SET Formula for change and like Alcoholics Anonymous the chance for healing is ENTIRELY dependent on the individual. His committment, his perseverance, his support system, his faith and more all play a vital part in his ability to root out the causes of his SSA, to control the passions and habits associated with his SSA, to recognize and fill his needs in legitmate ways. So called therapy with a professional or within a group may be a very small part of the healing process, which is why some individuals fail to respond to so-called reparative therapy while some others enjoy great peace and success.

One more clarification - the answer to homosexuality is NOT heterosexuality. NO legitimate plan for helping someone overcome SSA, involves trying to cultivate a heterosexual desire. Such a plan would be ridiculously misguided, especially as the guts of SSA have little to do with sexual desire. NO the answer to homosexuality is wholeness and holiness.

I believe ALL things are possible with God. I believe He wants to heal every hurt, and fill every need. I believe God wants us to live a chaste life according to our state.

I also believe that same sex attraction is one of the heaviest crosses one could bear. And the heavier the cross, the greater His Glory.

God has great plans for you!

God bless you Lynx and others who live everyday with this struggle. - C

Dousias - You asked if the Church was spending too much time in the bedroom or something to that extent. I hope you don’t belive the Church has no business in teaching morality or that its concern as the Body of Christ somehow stops at the bedroom door. Say it isn’t so and I will believe you, for every Christian should be glad of admonishment from the Church as she cares for our immortal souls.

 

[Christopher68]

You know, I was a boyscout, and my friends mother was one of the group leaders. She went on camping trips and we spent alot of time of at her house. And guess what, she never once molested us. She is attracted to men, yet somehow she never once did anything immoral. On the other hand, you seem to be implying that somehow homosexual men are all pedophiles and if you let be around kids, they will sexually molest them or something. As a homosexual myself, I am extremely offended and hurt that you would imply that I cannot be trusted to be around kids (especially young boys). You know, it’s bad enough that being gay, I get to struggle with homosexuality and people talking about how I am a bad person on a daily basis - but it’s even worse when people like you say that simply for being a homosexual (NOT A PEDOPHILE) that I shouldn’t get to be around kids. For your information, I love being around children and I would sooner have someone shoot me than for me to harm a child in any way. I will probably never get to have children, but I still want to work with children one day…maybe as a teacher or something…I want to be able to experience on a personal level how it is to be there and help children grow and learn. For you to imply that I should not be allowed that is because I am a homosexual and by default probably a pedophile is ignorant, hurtful, discriminatory, and calumnious. Statements like this are why so many homosexuals hate and feel completely unwanted by Christianity.

Kevin42,

I know that could not have been a easy post to write, as you included many personal details. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts on this topic.

 

[JRPO]

Hay Ed,

I think schools are in the business of teaching, not moralizing. Being gay as a kid has to be pretty tough, don’t you think?

“Serving the flesh?” What on earth does that mean? We are here to be joyful, live in love and be the creative arm of God herself! (Yes, we really are perfect. Especially in God’s eyes!)

Blessed be, Dousias.

Dousias
Don’t be a bone head! Anyone knows what “serving the flesh” means.

The point being made here is Its OK to be gay. Its not OK to indulge in sins of the flesh.

and governments should stay out of these issues.

And spell Pantheistic right. The “e” comes before the “i”

 

[Ridgerunner]

Homosexuality is not only present in humans. The behavior that characterizes it has been observed in many species of animals (which suggests it is a positive evolutionary trait, which is another matter entirely), so are these animals sinning?

/QUOTE]

I have never been convinced of this. I have been around animals all my life and have raised hundreds of them; maybe thousands, particularly cattle. I have seen people assume, e.g., that the frequently-observed bovine practice of “bulling” is an exhibition of homosexuality. On the surface, one could imagine that. It’s the tendency female cattle have to mount another female in heat.

But it can also be observed that bulls in a herd are quick to observe “bulling”, and will almost immediately go to the cow that’s in heat when it sees “bulling”. It serves the useful purpose, then, of “notifying” the bull that one of the cows is in heat; one that the bull might not otherwise realize was in heat. Cows can get missed in an open pasture. I strongly suspect that the other instances of seeming homosexuality in animals is no more an exhibition of real homosexuality than is “bulling.” Never, ever, ever have I seen a truly homosexual animal, in the sense that it exhibits a preference for its own sex over a receptive member of the opposite sex. Never.

I realize I will get blasted for this, but can we assume that people are “born” to be pedophiles or porn-addicted or inclined to violence in sex? In some sense, yes, in that we are fallen creatures and can take wrong turns into perverted sexuality that we later find difficult to escape. To me, homosexuality is not different from any of the other forms of sexual perversion. The difference is only that this society is not yet ready to accept those others as “variants of normal” the way it is presently willing to accept homosexuality.

 

[Lynxdk]

Lynx - Know first that you are in my daily prayers. I tell you this so you will understand how much I love you.

Backatcha =)

I would like to clarify the term “reaparative therapy.” Reparative therapy has become a catch-all term in this debate on the side of gay activists, who very often have little understanding of what course is involved for a person determined to control and overcome same sex attraction.

Never hurts to clarify. I have a background in Linguistics and Computer Science with a penchant for trying to teach computers to talk as people do, so include in there having to study child development, anthropology, history, religion, philosophy, morals and ethics, et al… and I often find one of the biggest barriers to communication being that people simply don’t understand what someone else means when they say “X”, because to someone else “X” may mean “Y” or “X+Y”, etc… so without an ability for telepathy, misunderstandings happen.

Many words are catch all terms, on every side of every debate, and they all mean something different to other people, causing things from simple temporary confusion (“Oh! Now I get it!”) to hard feelings and accusations (“You Lie!” or “You’re Wrong!”) and sometimes, much much worse…

So we can only say what we mean in so far as we have the vocabulary to describe it. “Reparative Therapy” has different meanings to different people, some positive (that might help me) some negative (that might hurt me), “Homosexuality” has different meanings to different people in the same way.

The answer to homosexuality is wholeness and holiness.

That’s pretty much the answer to everything, but that’s a lotta stuff, and we could be here all day

I believe ALL things are possible with God. I believe He wants to heal every hurt, and fill every need. I believe God wants us to live a chaste life according to our state.

I agree.

I also believe that same sex attraction is one of the heaviest crosses one could bear. And the heavier the cross, the greater His Glory.

Not interested in glory, really, just that people understand each other and stop hurting each other. I don’t really find it to be a burden, in and of itself. The burden comes with people who don’t understand it and choose to remain ignorant about it because “they feel it’s wrong” or “God says so” and leaving it there without question, rather than knowing that it’s perfectly natural and fits into God’s Plan… But then we have to go back to “meaning” to explain… which takes forever because we lack the vocabulary to explain that fully and completely in a way that everyone else can understand due to the differences in their vocabulary… and generally, it seems, the best people can do is just to keep from being at each others throats while they wait for Jesus to come back… which I’m not really one to sit on my thumbs and say nothing in the mean time. I’d rather get this sorted out before we ~all~ get in trouble =P

 

[JRPO]

Hi John,

It seems to be such a personal choice issue that should be left to the individuals themselves.

Is the church spending too much time and energy peering into people’s bedrooms?

Blessed be, Dousias.

This comment by Dousias is an insult to human intelligence.

On this earth we have always had to abide by rules. Rules of government like having to pay your taxes we dont decide what we pay the government does.

We have to abide by the law we don’t decide for ourselves what laws we will follow otherwise we finish up in Jail.

we drive on the road we have to abide by the rules of the road we dont make up the rules of the road as we go along.

as children our parents make up rules and if we misbehave we are in trouble children don’t make up rules for themselves.

We simply cannot be left to our own devices and we all know how human we can be . Moral choices are not for the individual to decide, what an unbearable world it would be if we could all have our own say on whats moral and whats not moral.

Dousias! , that comment is complete and utter stupidity.

 

[Abira]

Very well said and I could not agree with you more. I was commenting on what I am observing in the posts not judging souls. If my maturity level has not reached past racist comments, for example, it does not make my comments any less ignorant.

I admire your seeing the diversities but that does not excuse one from making statements that can be hurtful as I have seen here. I am the least perfect person here and I will be the first to admit that. I have a whole journey ahead of me but I can still discern whether or not a comment of mine may be distasteful or hurtful.

If you were a young person fighting with same-sex attraction would you see every post here as pastoral and Christ-like? Well, there might be someone like that who is reading through this thread. And to that person the poster’s spiritual level is not taken into account but his/her words are…God bless…teachccd

I think I might be that person… I come onto these forums every few months after being very active here a while back… and every time I come back I am saddened and dissapointed in the hate in some peoples comments in relation to homosexuality. Not all people of course, but there seems to be a real hate surrounding this issue that I do not see in for example… unmarried straight sex… it saddens me, and it is true that I have to remind myself that some peoples comments do not represent the whole. But it does distance me somewhat from interacting with religion as I am. I find this is impossible and so I am not engaging at all at this time.

 

[Abira]

/QUOTE]
I realize I will get blasted for this, but can we assume that people are “born” to be pedophiles or porn-addicted or inclined to violence in sex? In some sense, yes, in that we are fallen creatures and can take wrong turns into perverted sexuality that we later find difficult to escape. To me, homosexuality is not different from any of the other forms of sexual perversion. The difference is only that this society is not yet ready to accept those others as “variants of normal” the way it is presently willing to accept homosexuality.

To compare homosexuality within a loving and mutual relationship to paedophilia where there is an abuser and someone being abused against their wishes and at such a young age… well it’s disgusting that you compare the two.

The reason that society is beginning to accept homosexuality is because the two people both give consent, both love each other in long term relationships and have full knowlwdge of what is happening.

The reason society will never accept an adult raping or abusing a child is because the child cannot give consent, they are not in a loving long term relationship with any commitment to each other and the child does not have full knowledge of what is happening or how this may impact their development.

I do not see why this is a difficult thing to understand!

 

[Lynxdk]

This comment by Dousias is an insult to human intelligence.
On this earth we have always had to abide by rules. Rules of government like having to pay your taxes we dont decide what we pay the government does.

Some people pay taxes out of fear of getting punished, and have no understanding of what taxes are for, or what they’re meant to be for. Some people avoid paying taxes. Some people cheat the system. Some people understand that taxes are (or are supposed to be) for sustaining government and community to provide law and balance so that we have a society where we can live together without others taking advantage of others and doing whatever they want and feel is right for themselves at others expense.

We have to abide by the law we don’t decide for ourselves what laws we will follow otherwise we finish up in Jail.

We all decide what laws we follow. Many follow just laws, but don’t follow unjust ones. Many follow laws out of simple fear of punishment, and many other follow laws with more understanding of why a law is right or wrong. Some follow laws that they know are wrong out of fear of punishment, and some stand against laws they know are wrong in an effort to change them.

we drive on the road we have to abide by the rules of the road we dont make up the rules of the road as we go along.

We have laws of the road so everyone is on the same mental page, so people can have some security knowing and trusting other people are following the same rules of the road to prevent accidents, etc. Sometimes we all (or mostly) agree to abide by the same rules out of saftey.

as children our parents make up rules and if we misbehave we are in trouble children don’t make up rules for themselves.

Children ~always~ make up rules for themselves. They choose, or not, to obey their parents based on what they know and learn to be right or wrong vs what is correct or incorrect, vs obeying out of fear or understanding. Abused children, for example, get in trouble with their parents for telling the truth.

We simply cannot be left to our own devices and we all know how human we can be . Moral choices are not for the individual to decide, what an unbearable world it would be if we could all have our own say on whats moral and whats not moral.

All moral choices are up to each and every individual to decide. Some will choose “right” and some will choose “wrong” some say things are wrong that others say are right, and ~everyone~ chooses and decides for ~themselves~ what they see as moral, correct, right vs immoral, incorrect and wrong.

Some people choose to follow “a higher code” one that comes from outside themselves, sometimes simply because they feel safer doing so, they see it as a more objective view. Some people choose to follow an outside authority for the same reasons, but it’s still a choice. Choosing to follow something wrong doesn’t make it right. Choosing ~not~ to choose is still a choice.

Some people choose to follow such codes and trying to learn and understand why they’re right, and examine what might be wrong about them, rather than just follow out of fear of punishment, or because they don’t want the responsibility of having to figure out what is really right or wrong about them.

Dousias! , that comment is complete and utter stupidity.

And some people choose to be angry and insulting, and choose not to try to understand what other people have to say and why.

 

[edwest2]

There is no scientific evidence that people are born gay. Second. People are doing whatever they want in the privacy of their own homes around the world right now. But don’t try to change society by indoctrinating little kids. And don’t ask for ‘we make it up as we go along’ laws either. A functioning civilization is civilized. Anarchy is not a good idea.

Peace,
Ed