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teachccd
Guest
That still doesn’t invalidate MY opinion…teachccd
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PJM
Guest
While the answer is clearly NO! I do not make light of the issue.
I had a younger brother who was gay [may he rest in peace] so I have studied the issue.
The consensus seems to be invironement and parental influence play signifiant roles.
I suspected the answer to be “No” simply because it seems to my limited understanding, to be an unfair CROSS if actually predestined. Still God allows many to be born with heavy crosses to bear.
I do know that God because “God is every good thing perfectly” provides sufficent grace for everyone, especially those with extrodinary crosses to bear, to still say “yes to God’s Will” and get to heaven. Not everyone accepts these graces.
Love and prayers friends,
N
NoWhereMan
Guest
We get varying opinions on all these threads, each of us see things differently whether we are all Catholics or not. I talk to Catholics outside of church who attend church but do not believe half of its teachings, we are all in a different stage of our spiritual growth, No two people are on the same level as far as spiritual growth is concerned & the worse sinners can become the greatest saints
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AndyF
Guest
distracted:
No. That would be impossible because it would mean that some are at the same time destined to be an abomination (Leviticus), AND created in the image of God.
As an aside on the same issue some key points to remember.
These people are acting out a sin, just like someone would be acting out theft. The thief does not “become” the sin. In other words he does not “become thievery” and in this typical example we have no problem in recognizing that the person has an “out” if he so chooses to take this route. It is not ever a case where there is no way out, at least not while here in exile. (Kleptomania and the like being an exceptional case of course.)
It is an error to assign a label, as one who “IS gay”, as if one were resigned to this permanent state. This is why the Church says they should resist identifying with the sin. If they do, and the devil wishes them to identify with it and give up the pursuance of change, then society should ignore the attitude and adopt a remedial position as is a typical stance in any habitual sin. There is no guarantee these caring people will not be met with hostility either, such is the depth of deception the afflicted find themselves in.
Your friend’s success story proves this out and is inspiration.
We can see from these successes of many that this is a cunning and subtle ruse played on mankind.
AndyF
No. That would be impossible because it would mean that some are at the same time destined to be an abomination (Leviticus), AND created in the image of God.
As an aside on the same issue some key points to remember.
These people are acting out a sin, just like someone would be acting out theft. The thief does not “become” the sin. In other words he does not “become thievery” and in this typical example we have no problem in recognizing that the person has an “out” if he so chooses to take this route. It is not ever a case where there is no way out, at least not while here in exile. (Kleptomania and the like being an exceptional case of course.)
It is an error to assign a label, as one who “IS gay”, as if one were resigned to this permanent state. This is why the Church says they should resist identifying with the sin. If they do, and the devil wishes them to identify with it and give up the pursuance of change, then society should ignore the attitude and adopt a remedial position as is a typical stance in any habitual sin. There is no guarantee these caring people will not be met with hostility either, such is the depth of deception the afflicted find themselves in.
Your friend’s success story proves this out and is inspiration.
We can see from these successes of many that this is a cunning and subtle ruse played on mankind.AndyF
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thistle
Guest
There is no such thing as a gay gene and NO scientist has proven there is one.
People become gay as a result of one or more of upbringing/environment/choice.
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crazzeto
Guest
my religion as stated in my profile is Roman Catholic.
I believe it is quite possible that many Gay people (not necessarly all who claim to be) are born that way. When a person says this is just how they naturally feel, and it is something they’ve struggled with I have no reason to doubt them.
However I dont’ think this in anyway minimizes homosexual activity as a sin. I also don’t think it’s “mean” or “wrong” of God to place this cross upon the backs of some. I think that for purposes known only to God, the cross of homosexuality was placed upon the backs of a few. Perhaps if the rest of us merly have to carry our crosses to Calvery to die, maybe born homosexuals are scourged as our Lord was, then asked to carry their cross. I feel in life it must be a terrible burden, to know you must completely deny your nature, and more over also be denyed holy orders (assuming your open).
But I also believe God when he says that “the least shall be greatest and the greatest shall be least in the kingdom”. I think that, for those few (these days probably very few) born homosexuals who do manage to live a good, ritchous life to the fullest extent possible, there will be reward in heaven equal to their cross.
And for the record, no I’m not gay lol
But this is the best reasoning I have based on all the available evidence and what I know of God. I’m looking foward to reading through the thread and seeing what others have to think.
I believe it is quite possible that many Gay people (not necessarly all who claim to be) are born that way. When a person says this is just how they naturally feel, and it is something they’ve struggled with I have no reason to doubt them.
However I dont’ think this in anyway minimizes homosexual activity as a sin. I also don’t think it’s “mean” or “wrong” of God to place this cross upon the backs of some. I think that for purposes known only to God, the cross of homosexuality was placed upon the backs of a few. Perhaps if the rest of us merly have to carry our crosses to Calvery to die, maybe born homosexuals are scourged as our Lord was, then asked to carry their cross. I feel in life it must be a terrible burden, to know you must completely deny your nature, and more over also be denyed holy orders (assuming your open).
But I also believe God when he says that “the least shall be greatest and the greatest shall be least in the kingdom”. I think that, for those few (these days probably very few) born homosexuals who do manage to live a good, ritchous life to the fullest extent possible, there will be reward in heaven equal to their cross.
And for the record, no I’m not gay lol
But this is the best reasoning I have based on all the available evidence and what I know of God. I’m looking foward to reading through the thread and seeing what others have to think.
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crazzeto
Guest
You do realize, it doesn’t have to be a gene for it to be the “way they were born”. Any number of factors, which are not genetic, could be at play.
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Matrix_Refugee
Guest
Speaking as a bicelibate Catholic woman… I don’t know if people are “born gay” or if they develop same-sex tendencies due to environmental matters. I know I haven’t had the best of relationships with my father (ie. he worked a lot when I was a kid growing up, so I didn’t see him much except on Sundays and in the evening and sometimes not even then, plus when I got into my teen years, he somehow got it into his head that I was going to be a “wild thing” and started getting control-freakish with me – when anyone who really knew me, knew that I was a card-carrying geek-type, and that I was anything but wild) and thus a lot of my emotional support came from my mother. This may have contributed to the fact that I sometimes find my jaw dropping and my heart going pitter-patter at the sight of an especially pretty and attractive woman.
Maybe there is a genetic trigger for being SSA, but we aren’t a slave to our genetics, are we?
Maybe there is a genetic trigger for being SSA, but we aren’t a slave to our genetics, are we?
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system
Guest
Are people born gay? Nope. Folks,please check out this site at www.johnthebaptist.us. It is hosted by a Catholic man.
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crazzeto
Guest
Ultimatly no, none of us are. We can all make more ritcheous choices. Some one who is primarly attracted to same sex partners can choose abstiance, unless they happy to find an opposite sex partner that does attract them. All of us could (should) be choosing abstiance before marriage, despite our genetic programming for sexuality.
Pop psychobabble about “not denying nature” basically just wants to make us a slave to "our nature’, or more specifically sin. God made us better than that, anything less is a disservice to what we are.
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tjm190
Guest
You asked us for data to support our positions, where’s yours?
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Angel_Face
Guest
I do believe I understand, at least to a certain degree, that it has to be a very hard and heavy cross to handle for a gay person.
I know a young man who has reached out to his mother; talked to her over and over about his true feelings and that he, indeed is gay, rather or not he wants to be …
and still to this day, his mom can’t wait for him to marry a nice a young lady.
Now that is so, so sad! I do pray for this young man!
I pray for you too,“NoWhereMan”, whatever you mean by living it*! It can not be an easy cross! I do believe Jesus is with you!
I also believe Jesus is watching over this young man who is struggling not only with his personal life, but with his mother who is in denial.
God Bless All,
Angel Face
*
I know a young man who has reached out to his mother; talked to her over and over about his true feelings and that he, indeed is gay, rather or not he wants to be …
and still to this day, his mom can’t wait for him to marry a nice a young lady.
Now that is so, so sad! I do pray for this young man!
I pray for you too,“NoWhereMan”, whatever you mean by living it*! It can not be an easy cross! I do believe Jesus is with you!
I also believe Jesus is watching over this young man who is struggling not only with his personal life, but with his mother who is in denial.
God Bless All,
Angel Face
*
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Captain_America
Guest
As the twig is bent, so grows the branch.
I believe it’s a complex brew of various things at work.
I believe it’s a complex brew of various things at work.
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teachccd
Guest
I agree with you 100%. But when judgments are made about a certain group of people without discerning these comments then there is a problem. Spiritual development is one thing and plain old ignorance is another…teachccd
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camerong
Guest
I’m a former fundamentalist, turned liberal Quaker-ish, now Catholic. My opinion at all points has been well-summed up by a paragraph from the APA’s website:
There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.
Two facts are undeniable: most self-identified homosexuals fervently claim that no matter how hard they try, they cannot cease feeling same-sex attractions. This includes a number of people well-versed in Catholic morals of sexuality. This can be seen in a significant number of Catholic homosexuals who remain celibate forever. If they could become straight, surely, surely they would do so, rather than remain celibate forever. And the fact that they remain celibate despite what must be overwhelming urges speaks to their deep understanding of Catholic morality, so we cannot attribute their feelings to been lost in sin.
The second undeniable fact is that some people, albeit far less than the above group, claim to have “switched” preferences, or can satisfactorily ignore one preference over another. For such people, homosexuality is pretty clearly some manner of choice.
This leaves us to agree with the predominant psychological model today–sexual orientation, by which I mean one’s uncontemplated attractions, occurs on a spectrum from fully heterosexual (I myself have never felt any same-sex attraction) to fully homosexual (people, such as a Catholic friend of mine, who swear to have only felt same sex attractions, no matter how hard they try), and then people in between who are able to exert some control over their feelings.
This all, of course, is completely separate from what is sinful. Have sex outside of a marriage between a man and a woman is a sin, period. I make a choice to cheat on my wife, in the same way as a homosexual makes a choice to have sex with another man. Each choice is sinful in much the same way. And while it is likely easier for me to avoid my sin than a homosexual his, that is simply the cross we have to bear. Just as saying homosexuality is a sinful choice ignores a broad base of evidence, saying that because it is not chosen, giving in to same-sex attraction it must not be a sin, ignores a broad base of morality. Frankly, I think the CCC has settled this issue quite well.
There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.
Two facts are undeniable: most self-identified homosexuals fervently claim that no matter how hard they try, they cannot cease feeling same-sex attractions. This includes a number of people well-versed in Catholic morals of sexuality. This can be seen in a significant number of Catholic homosexuals who remain celibate forever. If they could become straight, surely, surely they would do so, rather than remain celibate forever. And the fact that they remain celibate despite what must be overwhelming urges speaks to their deep understanding of Catholic morality, so we cannot attribute their feelings to been lost in sin.
The second undeniable fact is that some people, albeit far less than the above group, claim to have “switched” preferences, or can satisfactorily ignore one preference over another. For such people, homosexuality is pretty clearly some manner of choice.
This leaves us to agree with the predominant psychological model today–sexual orientation, by which I mean one’s uncontemplated attractions, occurs on a spectrum from fully heterosexual (I myself have never felt any same-sex attraction) to fully homosexual (people, such as a Catholic friend of mine, who swear to have only felt same sex attractions, no matter how hard they try), and then people in between who are able to exert some control over their feelings.
This all, of course, is completely separate from what is sinful. Have sex outside of a marriage between a man and a woman is a sin, period. I make a choice to cheat on my wife, in the same way as a homosexual makes a choice to have sex with another man. Each choice is sinful in much the same way. And while it is likely easier for me to avoid my sin than a homosexual his, that is simply the cross we have to bear. Just as saying homosexuality is a sinful choice ignores a broad base of evidence, saying that because it is not chosen, giving in to same-sex attraction it must not be a sin, ignores a broad base of morality. Frankly, I think the CCC has settled this issue quite well.
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puzzleannie
Guest
I don’t have an opinion and I won’t form an opinion until science gives us a reliable answer, which it is still unable to do. When I do form an opinion it will be on reliable scientific evidence, not on anecdotal experience of a few people, or “gays I have known”.
I am far more concerned with ways to reach out in pastoral care to anyone who is experiencing a movement toward conversion from whatever condition and for whatever reason, to assist them in responding to that movement of the Holy Spirit. I do that by doing what I am paid and commissioned to do, teach the truths of the Catholic Faith as revealed by God and assist them in applying that teaching to their own situation, and making sure they have the pastoral guidance of a reliable priest in matters which belong in the confessional and are none of my business.
I am far more concerned with ways to reach out in pastoral care to anyone who is experiencing a movement toward conversion from whatever condition and for whatever reason, to assist them in responding to that movement of the Holy Spirit. I do that by doing what I am paid and commissioned to do, teach the truths of the Catholic Faith as revealed by God and assist them in applying that teaching to their own situation, and making sure they have the pastoral guidance of a reliable priest in matters which belong in the confessional and are none of my business.
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NoWhereMan
Guest
Thank You! I can tell you are an Angel! This world needs more people like YOu!
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NoWhereMan
Guest
When You attain a certain height of Spiritual maturity, then the Judgment stops. Being of human nature, we tend to be judgmental & mean sometime, that
s why we have to replace debase human nature with divine nature. When we reach higher levels of spirituality, it changes us to see God in every Human being, no matter what lifestyle they live. We are ALL Gods children, no matter what. He created us all , not the devil. Every one is not gifted the same, some are strong, some are weak, some are endowed with high intelligence, others are not. We are not all created equal, so we all cannot think the same about certain issues. We are all works in progress,which will never stop till our dying day
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distracted
Guest
i find myself admiring attractive women… I coiuld call myself gay because of that… and make a whole lifestyle of that thought… or whatever.
but you couldn’t find someone more heterosexual than i am… I just think that God did something wonderful when he created the female body… made for nurturing life… made for love…
some women just seem to make a life out of that kind of thing… it is a CHOICE…
i could be wrong but i think it is at least 98% choice… There may be some inclination in a person that is stronger than in most but an inclination does not make your destiny. Choice does…
Choice is what life is all about.
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distracted
Guest
i was born with an inclination to be selfish.
and as we all know, that inclination never leaves anyone.
but again…
Choice…
and as we all know, that inclination never leaves anyone.
but again…
Choice…
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