Do you believe people are born gay?

[djeter]

I think I might be that person… I come onto these forums every few months after being very active here a while back… and every time I come back I am saddened and dissapointed in the hate in some peoples comments in relation to homosexuality. Not all people of course, but there seems to be a real hate surrounding this issue that I do not see in for example… unmarried straight sex… it saddens me, and it is true that I have to remind myself that some peoples comments do not represent the whole. But it does distance me somewhat from interacting with religion as I am. I find this is impossible and so I am not engaging at all at this time.

And what is strange about the heat generated is that nowhere does the Church cite same sex attraction as a sin but the behaviors associated with it: sodomy, anal sex, etc. Yet these behaviors are not uniqe to homosexuality.

But to use that as an excuse not to “interact with religion” as you say (what a weird phrase BTW). Michael Heller (payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/11/03/fr-michael-heller/) writes: "“Science gives us knowledge, but religion gives us meaning,” he says. “Science without religion is not meaningless, but lame…. And religion without science [slides] into fundamentalism,” he says. Heller draws on deep understanding of cosmology, religion, and philosophy to tackle questions such as, “Does the universe need to have a cause?” and “Why is there something rather than nothing?”

Do you let the negativism of others ruin your day? Have you given up reading and going to art museums as well?

dj

 

[Dousias]

Sorry I didn’t paste your comment before, so I felt I had write this again with a paste of your comment so you would notice it.

Study 1:
85.5 % of women and 75% of men have been faithful (haven’t committed adultery) to their partners in heterosexual marriages, while only 4% of homosexual marriages have been faithful in monogamy.

Study 2:
In the late 1970s, A.P. Bell and M.S. Weinberg, in their classic study of male and female homosexuality, found that 43 percent of white male homosexuals had sex with 500 or more partners, with 28 percent having 1,000 or more sex partners. In the late 1990s, a study of the sexual profiles of 2,583 older homosexuals published in Journal of Sex Research, found that only 2.7 percent claimed to have had sex with one partner only. The most common response, given by 21.6 percent of the respondents, was of having a 101 to 500 lifetime sex partners

See for many other great statistical references:
frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS04C02

Dousias, what do you think?

Hi Michael,

Thanks for quoting sources. I checked out the FRC page and boy does it provide references! But… I’m quoting experiential data, not statistical data. I don’t have the time available to refute the FRC and prove my case by statistical metrics. I don’t doubt the accuracy of individual data groups as stated on their website. That said, I observe the FRC has an agenda and that slants the data as a whole. One study is what, thirty years old? How valid is that in 2009? 28% had 1,000 partners? Hmmm, that is really a lot of partners!

The couples I know don’t fit the stats stated. These are real people with real lives and real commitments.

Blessed be, Dousias

 

[michael7777]

Well thank you Dousias for at least looking at those surveys. I was told all those statistics by a professor who was greatly known for supporting “gay rights and equality” on campus; her only agenda was to support gay rights (she hung rainbow flags from her door). If those statistics are wrong, they are in most college Sociology textbooks. My professor wouldn’t have included those statistics if there was bias, she was a stickler about such things.

Since you know only 12 couples, maybe you just don’t know enough gay people. Maybe, you need a larger sampling population for your experiential data. (Sociological Chortle!).

Pax,
Michael.

PS Since you don’t have time to refute those surveys, I can find out if they are biased. Give me some time to do so. But let me state, those are professional surveys… meaning they are not supposed to have population bias (they control for such things) and since they interviewed thousands of white males, I think that is a large enough survey group to be statistically representative.

 

[Dousias]

Dousias- The sad part is you’re serious. Truth is a not subjective -nor does it originate within a system of beliefs. Truth exists. It is. This reality is why Jesus called HImself the Truth, the Way and the Life. There is no other.

St. Paul teaches us to “be ready to give reason for the light within you.” The Catholic Church Has ALWAYS done just that. None of her teachings are contrary to reason or natural law. That is precisely why I encourage you to read her official and authoritative writings more sincerely. Leave your hatred of the so-called “system” you think she represents at the door and scrutinize her every word with an open mind and heart. I guarantee you will find nothing that goes against logic or reason.

You will however find much that goes against the thinking of this world. And that is just as it should be, just as Our Lord promised the apostles it would be.

In fact dear Dousias, it is when your thinking aligns with the modern world that you should be most concerned for your immortal soul. I know I am.

Hi again,

Oh, I’m pretty sure Catholicism misses the mark on a number of natural laws and logical states! Just my opinion… but all there is is natural law. There is no such thing as the realm of the supernatural or paranormal. It’s all normal! There is no such thing as fate. The world around you (and me) operates under physical laws that are the same today as they were at the “Dawn of Time.” That said, we are infants in our understanding of this world we exist in. We know a lot about atoms, but quantum physics is bringing as many questions as answers. The same can be said about this thing or energy we call God. We see and feel it but have no clue as to what it really is. Like the sun, we feel it’s energy and presence but most people have no clue how it works! (Hydrogen fusion btw…)

The important thing to remember is that the world operates independent of what we think and feel. The same can be said about our particular belief in God or Spirit. It doesn’t matter what we think God is or does. Or even if we believe in God at all. God works in our lives independent of our thought because God just is. Just as natural as gravity or quantum physics or what causes a coin to come up heads about as often as tails.

Religion is a system of values shared. The scary fact is those values can get skewed and then thought of as shared values. You are asking me to step inside a system that devalues people based on sexual conduct. No, I already understand what the church teaches about this subject.

Blessed be, Dousias

 

[CarlaOLS]

Thank you. You have spoken as a true man of no faith. At least now those following your posts will understand you and consider the source.

Nuff said.

 

[djeter]

Religion is a system of values shared.

‘Science gives us knowledge, but religion gives us meaning.’ – Michael Heller, 2008 Templeton Prize winner

More here

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/11/03/fr-michael-heller/

Imagine how your world would change if you could only look at “religion” differently.

dj

 

[Dousias]

Thank you. You have spoken as a true man of no faith. At least now those following your posts will understand you and consider the source.

Nuff said.

Carla, there is always more to say! LOL!

The statement you just made is so true. Absolutely true. Faith is different than gnossis or knowledge. The world is a very knowable concept and faith is not required!

Blessed be, Dousias

 

[Dousias]

‘Science gives us knowledge, but religion gives us meaning.’ – Michael Heller, 2008 Templeton Prize winner

More here

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/11/03/fr-michael-heller/

Imagine how your world would change if you could only look at “religion” differently.

dj

Hay DJ,

Thanks for the link, it’s a long read but worthy of the time investment. Thanks for reminding me to check out the John Templeton Foundation too. Sir Templeton had keen insight into understanding our world and our place in it. We are at a crossroads between old ways of understanding and new knowledge. The resulting fusion between the two will yield a world that is better in many ways then what we have now.

Peace, Dousias

 

[Dousias]

Well thank you Dousias for at least looking at those surveys.

Since you know only 12 couples, maybe you just don’t know enough gay people. Maybe, you need a larger sampling population for your experiential data. (Sociological Chortle!).

PS Since you don’t have time to refute those surveys, I can find out if they are biased.

Hi again,

I think all surveys are biased in one form or another. Is the quote, “All statistics lie, but they do it with authority!” LOL!

But… If I personally know twelve couples, that’s twenty four people. The stat was more than twenty five percent have more than 500 partners. That means six people should have had more than 500 contacts. But none do. Zero. The stated stat is not supported by my real-world data. That said, it’s true that gays, broadly speaking, seem more promiscuous than straights. I have heard that is because gays are better at hooking-up than straights are.

But aren’t we going off on a tangent with the statistics?

The point is really how we best serve society and create safe space to form families. That is a stated goal of religion and that meshes well with forming and maintaining a stable society. But culture seems to afford that stability only to certain people and denies it to others. That is called discrimination and discrimination is always wrong. The bottom line is some religions, thankfully not all, use their teachings as a form of discrimination.

If forming families is so important to the church then why not embrace gay marriage?
Or multiple partner families? Or intentional families?

If society benefits from the stability of family formation the I ask: Why not?

What exactly would the downside to alternate families be?

Please share what the downside might be.

Blessed be, Dousias