Do you believe that practicing ABC is morally permissible? Answer if your Catholic only please.

[LaSainte]

Where is it stated in Church documents that ABC is not an infallible teaching but rather a non-infallible teaching?

There are no documents to this effect, but the topic is a debated one. Either way, please see my post above as to why not believing the teaching does not rise to the level of heresy.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

Catholic Answers does not represent the average American Catholic family, so it isn’t an accurate poll.

I would agree somewhat with this comment. The results are of which are not likely to be inline with mainstream American Catholic practice. However, I would venture most Catholics in America are not catechised properly with regards to ABC practices.

 

[LaSainte]

From the Holy See…directed to all Priests…to guide them in hearing the confession of their penitents…

My understanding is that it is infallible via the Ordinary Magisterium. And heck it has been part of the teaching of the Church since the early days…

twas what I was taught for my degree in Catholic Theology…

Jimmy Akin makes a few comments about such:

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2004/11/contraception_i.html

It may very well be infallible and it may not. The Church has never come out and said directly, which would be helpful. Until then, it will continue to be debated among theologians, priests, bishops, cardinals, etc.

 

[Bookcat]

PS in the doctrinal note from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith of December 21 of last year…

It is interesting that they note regarding moral norm regarding contraception:

“This norm belongs to the tradition of the Church”

 

[white_sheep]

Truly shocking. It’s 98%! Absolutely horrendous!

Actually, it’s 87%. Don’t forget that a woman mustn’t necessarily be trying to prevent pregnancy. There’s an additional 11% who use no method.

Also, this data excludes women who are pregnant, post-partum, or trying to get pregnant, teenagers, and unmarried women.

 

[Debora123]

I voted yes, I believe it to be morally permissible. The poll should include a few options to help decipher one’s thoughts however. In my case, and yes, I consider myself a devout Catholic, as most of my friends and family think of me that way as well, I would need to include these caveats:

• The couple must obviously be married. Poll should state that.
• The couple must have been open to life in the past, or, of course, currently have children, and adding more would cause true financial or other hardship
• The “ABC” method must be non-abortive. i.e, barrier or withdrawl.

Agreed.

 

[michelleds]

I would like to understand how a Catholic can simultaneously hold the following apparent diametrically opposed beliefs: ABC is morally permissible and homosexual activities are morally impermissible.

It would appear to me that one of the strongest arguments against homosexual activities is that they are closed to life/procreation. if you agree with that, then how can you say that ABC is morally permissible? and alternatively, if you say that ABC is morally permissible even tho or in spite of closing the sex act to procreation, how then can you say that homosexual activity is immoral?

To me, both are impermissible. However, I have seen that some straddle this.

Thanks, michelle

 

[maryjk]

I would need to include these caveats:

• The couple must obviously be married. Poll should state that.
• The couple must have been open to life in the past, or, of course, currently have children, and adding more would cause true financial or other hardship
• The “ABC” method must be non-abortive. i.e, barrier or withdrawl.

Just to play devil’s advocated, what should a couple use that doesn’t already have children but don’t want to be open to life “right now?” Think those married college students that want to postpone having a child until after graduation.

(Before anyone jumps on me. I use NFP, I voted that ABC is NOT morally permissible and I am simply taking the above statement to another degree.)

 

[Corki]

Just to be clear, it is not heresy to believe that contraception is morally permissible. The teaching is not dogmatic and does not require full divine and Catholic faith, but, I believe, only that we as Catholics submit to the teaching.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

You are confusing assent with obedience.

It may very well be infallible and it may not. The Church has never come out and said directly, which would be helpful. Until then, it will continue to be debated among theologians, priests, bishops, cardinals, etc.

Heresy does not have to involve infallibe teaching. It is the willful and obstinate (Church’s word, not mine) rejection of a teching of the Church on a matter of faith or morals.

Catholics owe ‘assent of faith’ to the authoritative teachings of the Church. You either assent or dissent. If you dissnet on a matter of faith or morals, that’s heresy.

 

[LaSainte]

I would like to understand how a Catholic can simultaneously hold the following apparent diametrically opposed beliefs: ABC is morally permissible and homosexual activities are morally impermissible.

It would appear to me that one of the strongest arguments against homosexual activities is that they are closed to life/procreation. if you agree with that, then how can you say that ABC is morally permissible? and alternatively, if you say that ABC is morally permissible even tho or in spite of closing the sex act to procreation, how then can you say that homosexual activity is immoral?

To me, both are impermissible. However, I have seen that some straddle this.

Thanks, michelle

Well, the Bible specifically forbids homosexual intercourse in several places, whereas it does not forbid contraception. Some would cite the Onan story but I think most people agree that that reference is a stretch for the prohibition of ALL contraception in ALL corcumstances for ALL time.

 

[Corki]

Well, the Bible specifically forbids homosexual intercourse in several places, whereas it does not forbid contraception. Some would cite the Onan story but I think most people agree that that reference is a stretch for the prohibition of ALL contraception in ALL corcumstances for ALL time.

Well there’s also Galatians 5:20 where “pharmakeia” means potions and herbs used, among other things as contraceptives and to induce miscarriage.

Revelation 9:21 and 21:8 refer to the same.

Here’s an interesting link for the many Scriputural verses that support the Church’s position on contraception.

scripturecatholic.com/contraception.html

And then there are the Early Church fathers

catholic.com/library/Contraception_and_Sterilization.asp

Of course it’s not a scoreboard. Just because you count up more verses against homosexuality doesn’t mean that homosexual acts are bad but contraception is not.

 

[Veritatis3]

I cannot vote, but I will give my opinion which I believe reflects Church teaching. NO!

How can you receive the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ at the Mass, and then turn and thumb your nose at His Church?

 

[Seatuck]

Father Hardon reiterates that it is an infallible teaching.

catholic-pages.com/morality/fatal.asp

Primer on infallible teachings

ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/TRIGINFL.HTM

 

[lizaanne]

Why is it necessary for you to know who votes yes and who votes no? It is not relevant to the question, and will never get you an accurate result. I will never understand why people make polls public.

~Liza

 

[LaSainte]

You are confusing assent with obedience.

Heresy does not have to involve infallibe teaching. It is the willful and obstinate (Church’s word, not mine) rejection of a teching of the Church on a matter of faith or morals.

Catholics owe ‘assent of faith’ to the authoritative teachings of the Church. You either assent or dissent. If you dissnet on a matter of faith or morals, that’s heresy.

Canon 750

§ 1. Those things are to be believed by divine and catholic faith which are contained in the word of God as it has been written or handed down by tradition, that is, in the single deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and which are at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn Magisterium of the Church, or by its ordinary and universal Magisterium, which in fact is manifested by the common adherence of Christ’s faithful under the guidance of the sacred Magisterium. All are therefore bound to avoid any contrary doctrines.

§ 2. Furthermore, each and everything set forth definitively by the Magisterium of the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals must be firmly accepted and held; namely, those things required for the holy keeping and faithful exposition of the deposit of faith; therefore, anyone who rejects propositions which are to be held definitively sets himself against the teaching of the Catholic Church.

"Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;*

Contraception does NOT fall under that which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith and not believing in the Church’s teaching regarding contraception cannot constitute heresy.

 

[LaSainte]

Well there’s also Galatians 5:20 where “pharmakeia” means potions and herbs used, among other things as contraceptives and to induce miscarriage.

Revelation 9:21 and 21:8 refer to the same.

Here’s an interesting link for the many Scriputural verses that support the Church’s position on contraception.

scripturecatholic.com/contraception.html

And then there are the Early Church fathers

catholic.com/library/Contraception_and_Sterilization.asp

I think those were probably referring to miscarriage/abortions. Strong’s definition doesn’t even include abortion, but sorcery in general (searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5331). In fact, I can’t find a single non-catholic source that uses this word for anything even resembling contraception. And as far as the Church fathers go, Augustine and Gregory the Great were also against sex for any reason other than procreation. NFP would have been a major no-no.

 

[Bookcat]

NFP would have been a major no-no.

Setting aside the question of what they knew or thought or what have you according to the knowledge of their time…

Given the rest that we know of them…if you took them for a ride in the TARDIS to the 21st Century …and asked them “Do you accept NFP as something that can be legit in marriage?” They would then in turn ask? What does the Church teach about it? What does Peter say? And then having been informed…they would respond “then so say I!”

 

[LaSainte]

Setting aside the question of what they knew or thought or what have you according to the knowledge of their time…

Given the rest that we know of them…if you took them for a ride in the TARDIS to the 21st Century …and asked them “Do you accept NFP as something that can be legit in marriage?” They would then in turn ask? What does the Church teach about it? What does Peter say? And then having been informed…they would respond “then so say I!”

What do you mean “setting aside the question of what they thought”? Their writings are plain as day. They are very clear that sex is for procreation ONLY and is otherwise sinful, period.

You can’t use the Fathers to defend the Church’s position on contraception and then simply throw everything else they taught about marital sex out of the window. Best not to use them as an argument at all, since their teachings about contraception are the very same teachings that refute any sort of sex for non-procreative purposes. These teachings are one in the same.

 

[Little_One0307]

I cannot vote, but I will give my opinion which I believe reflects Church teaching. NO!

How can you receive the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ at the Mass, and then turn and thumb your nose at His Church?

I will tally your vote as no, this poll will not close, so when you go to new member you can vote on it.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

God bless.

 

[Little_One0307]

Why is it necessary for you to know who votes yes and who votes no? It is not relevant to the question, and will never get you an accurate result. I will never understand why people make polls public.

~Liza

Liza,

See post #33.

And I quote

I had posted something that answered this, but I can’t seem to find the post anywhere. Ideally the ideal would be to get a list of all the Catholics in the world and poll them. But as that is impossible to do, and no particular group represents Church Universal, I thought to poll here at CAF, becuase it is a pool that is accessible.

I am not going to make because CAF voters voted this way, it holds true across the boards in the Catholic Church. That was not the intent of the poll. I just thought I had Catholics here, here’s a pool that is manageable, and so let’s go with it.

So the only conclusion that I can say is out of those who voted here on this poll at CAF such and such a percentage believes…

So this is why this thread was started.

God bless.

God bless.