Do you believe that practicing ABC is morally permissible? Answer if your Catholic only please.

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Corki said:
The distinction being, “those teachings which require “divine and Catholic faith” can incur the penalty of heresy if denied.”

Question: What are “those teachings”?
**
Answer**: the teachings of the Church regarding faith and morals taught through the authority of the magisterim.

The teaching on contraception is one of these.
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humm…it is a bit more nuanced than such.

Here this will help from the CDF:

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFADTU.HTM
 
Corki said:
Who are y’all referring to as “he”?

If it’s me – I’m a girl! 😃
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Lol sorry! I thought you were a girl, but it sounded like Bookcat knew you or something so when he said “he” I went with it 🙂
 
Bookcat said:
Anyone read this yet?

ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/FLAVIN.HTM
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Never fear, your posting is not like a stone dropping into a vast cavern of uncaring emptiness. Pug has mostly read it. :yeah_me: Here is a quote:
Contraception is wrong, not because the Church says it is wrong (it was wrong before Christ established the Church); it is wrong because God Himself, through the revelation of His Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, has declared it to be wrong.
Since the author mentions revelation, I suspect he might be intending to say that the teaching on contraception is divinely revealed, part of Revelation, and hence for our thread, subject to heresy.

(Note: no one jump on this one way or the other. I did not say if I agreed with this possible stance or not.)
 
Bookcat said:
humm…it is a bit more nuanced than such.

Here this will help from the CDF:

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFADTU.HTM
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Good source. Notice that #6 is where the teachings on gain and morals come in Corki. These do not require divine and Catholic faith and are not proposed to be “the word of God” directly - as such, denying them does not constitute heresy, but merely dissent.
 
LaSainte said:
Lol sorry! I thought you were a girl, but it sounded like Bookcat knew you or something so when he said “he” I went with it 🙂
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Well heck…some think I am a she cause I like books and cats!

WELL there is certain person name Benedict who ordinarily is in Rome …who also likes cats and books…
 
The whole of course needs to be read and understood as a whole (which can take some time)…very rich text
 
LaSainte said:
Good source. Notice that #6 is where the teachings on gain and morals come in Corki. These do not require divine and Catholic faith and are not proposed to be “the word of God” directly - as such, denying them does not constitute heresy, but merely dissent.
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LaSainte …need to read the whole…
 
Bookcat said:
humm…it is a bit more nuanced than such.

Here this will help from the CDF:

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFADTU.HTM
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Actually, I think what I wrote fits pretty closely with your link
originally by LaSainte “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same”
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me Question: What are “those teachings”?
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Answer: the teachings of the Church regarding faith and morals taught through the authority of the magisterim.
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The teaching on contraception is one of these
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CDF document you linked. (bolding mine)
  1. The Magisterium of the Church, however, teaches a doctrine to be believed as divinely revealed (first paragraph) or to be held definitively (second paragraph) with an act which is either defining or non-defining. In the case of a defining act, a truth is solemnly defined by an “ex cathedra” pronouncement by the Roman Pontiff or by the action of an ecumenical council. In the case of a non-defining act, a doctrine is taught infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Bishops dispersed throughout the world who are in communion with the Successor of Peter.** Such a doctrine can be confirmed or reaffirmed by the Roman Pontiff, even without recourse to a solemn definition, by declaring explicitly that it belongs to the teaching of the ordinary and universal Magisterium as a truth that is divinely revealed (first paragraph) or as a truth of Catholic doctrine (second paragraph).** Consequently, when there has not been a judgment on a doctrine in the solemn form of a definition, but this doctrine, belonging to the inheritance of the depositum fidei, is taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium, which necessarily includes the Pope, such a doctrine is to be understood as having been set forth infallibly.17 The declaration of confirmation or reaffirmation by the Roman Pontiff in this case is not a new dogmatic definition, but a formal attestation of a truth already possessed and infallibly transmitted by the Church.
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Clearly, the teaching on contraception has been “confirmed or reaffirmed by the Roman Pontiff”, and “held definifinitively” even without a defining act. It then is considered as “belonging to the inheritance of the depositum fidei” and “understoond as having been set forth infallibly”.

Are you disagreeing that the teaching is infallible or disagreeing that rejecting it is heresy?
CCC 2089 … Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith …
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If the teaching is part of the depositum fidei, it must be believed with divine and cathoic faith. Right?
  1. With regard to the nature of the assent owed to the truths set forth by the Church as divinely revealed (those of the first paragraph) or to be held definitively (those of the second paragraph), it is important to emphasize that there is no difference with respect to the full and irrevocable character of the assent which is owed to these teachings. The difference concerns the supernatural virtue of faith: in the case of truths of the first paragraph, the assent is based directly on faith in the authority of the Word of God (doctrines de fide credenda); **in the case of the truths of the second paragraph, the assent is based on faith in the Holy Spirit’s assistance to the Magisterium and on the Catholic doctrine of the infallibility of the Magisterium **(doctrines de fide tenenda).
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The second paragraph referred to here includes teachings on faith and morals that are “taught infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Church as a “sententia definitive tenenda”.” “Whoever denies these truths would be in a position of rejecting a truth of Catholic doctrine16 and would therefore no longer be in full communion with the Catholic Church.”

The teaching on contraception is something that “must be believed” based on the Holy Spirit’s assistance to the Magisterium.
 
This is EWTN’s simplified summary of the document you posted.

ewtn.com/library/Theology/SUMMARY.HTM

Contraception falls under the second category
II. Definitively Proposed
Doctrines definitively proposed by the Church on faith and morals which are necessary for faithfully keeping and expounding the deposit of faith, even if they have not been proposed by the Magisterium of the Church as formally revealed.
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There is no difference with respect to the full and irrevocable consent which must be given to teachings set forth as I. divinely revealed and II. those proposed as to be definitively held.
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Bookcat said:
Well heck…some think I am a she cause I like books and cats!

WELL there is certain person name Benedict who ordinarily is in Rome …who also likes cats and books…
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LOL I used to call all my cats “she” and they were all male. 😉
 
LaSainte said:
Good source. Notice that #6 is where the teachings on gain and morals come in Corki. These do not require divine and Catholic faith and are not proposed to be “the word of God” directly - as such, denying them does not constitute heresy, but merely dissent.
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#6 is indeed where the teaching about contraception comes in. Note the last sentance
Whoever denies these truths would be in a position of rejecting a truth of Catholic doctrine16 and would therefore no longer be in full communion with the Catholic Church.
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and the first sentance of #8 which I already quoted
  1. With regard to the nature of the assent owed to the truths set forth by the Church as divinely revealed (those of the first paragraph) or to be held definitively (those of the second paragraph), it is important to emphasize that there **is no difference with respect to the full and irrevocable character of the assent which is owed **to these teaching.s
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LaSainte said:
Good source. Notice that #6 is where the teachings on gain and morals come in Corki. These do not require divine and Catholic faith and are not proposed to be “the word of God” directly - as such, denying them does not constitute heresy, but merely dissent.
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I’m trying to sort out the categories in that article.

#6 is not about religious assent, not that I can see. There are three categories/paragraphs. #6 is the middle category. Religious assent is in the bottom category. The word “dissent” typically is applied to someone who vocally supports not assenting to something from the religious assent category.

Also, I can’t tell if it is relevant to your post here, but moral teachings can fall into the top category. Thou shalt not kill (murder) is part of revelation, as far as I can tell. Somehow your post suggests to me that potentially you don’t see moral things as possible in the first category.
 
LaSainte said:
This forum has officially lost all credibility for me.

Your citation from LG actually backs up my point. “religious assent” and “religious submission of the mind and will” are NOT the same thing as “divine and Catholic faith”. Not by a long shot. The Church makes these distinctions for very important reasons.

The things that we are required to believe with “divine and Catholic faith” are not that numerous. A great summary of these things are found in, but not limited to, those statements in the Nicene Creed. For example, “we believe in one God” “we believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God”, “he was crucified, died and was buried”, “on the third day He rose again”. THESE are thing I must believe to the very core of my soul, or as the Church puts it, with “divine and Catholic faith”. If I am obstinate in not believing these things, I am a heretic.
"Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;

As you can see, ONLY the obstinate denial of the truth of matters such as those referenced above can rise to the level of heresy at all. Not contraception, not the rule about eating meat on Fridays.

Things such as the teaching on contraception require, as you so nicely pointed out from LG, “religious submission of the will and intellect”. The threshold is set much lower. In other words, I am not required to believe to the very core of my being that contraception is wrong. I am only required to submit to this teaching in practice, and to admit to myself that even if I do not believe in this teaching, the Church MAY still be right about it and I may be wrong or misunderstanding the teaching. That is all. Now, if I do not follow this teaching in practice, it is (according to the Church) a grave sin, but it is NOT , nor will it ever be “heresy”.

Let’s have an example:

If I do not believe in my heart and soul (a.k.a. with “divine and Catholic faith”) that Jesus Christ is the son of God, can I receive communion? Of course not. Even though I have not “committed” any grave sin, just not believing that Jesus is actually the son of God places me outside the Church, for such a belief is a heresy.

Now, if I do not believe in my heart and soul (with “divine and Catholic faith”) that contraception is wrong, but I do my best to follow the teaching in practice (I do not use contraception) and I am willing to allow that the Church may be right and that I may be misunderstanding the teaching (a.k.a. I give the Church a religious submission of will and intellect on the matter) can I receive communion? YES! I am not a heretic even though I do not believe this teaching with “divine and Catholic faith” because quite simply, I am not required to. While practicing contraception and shouting from the rooftops that the Church teaching on contraception is a load of baloney may pit me in a state of mortal sin and unable to receive communion as a result of said sin (according to the Church), it does NOT make me a “heretic” because the level of faith required for this teaching is simply not there.

Will someone who knows about this PLEASE back me up on this? It is the absolute truth.

Do not take my word for this! Ask any knowledgeable priest or canon lawyer or bishop or even BENEDICT himself.
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I think you know your wrong, but you like talking circles in order to confuse people.
 
That stuff is so confusing.

Why do people think they need a book or document or man or council to tell them how to act? Why does the Church essentially ask Her followers to ignore their conscience if it is in opposition to Church teaching? Why does the Church try to control people like that? Why do people let Her?
:confused:
 
Pug said:
I’m trying to sort out the categories in that article.

#6 is not about religious assent, not that I can see. There are three categories/paragraphs. #6 is the middle category. Religious assent is in the bottom category. The word “dissent” typically is applied to someone who vocally supports not assenting to something from the religious assent category.

Also, I can’t tell if it is relevant to your post here, but moral teachings can fall into the top category. Thou shalt not kill (murder) is part of revelation, as far as I can tell. Somehow your post suggests to me that potentially you don’t see moral things as possible in the first category.
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That’s not what I meant to say. Put more clearly, there is no knowledgeable priest, theologian or pope who believes that contraception falls into the first category of things which require “divine and catholic faith”. Ask any priest. It is simply not possible to disagree with this teaching and be branded a heretic.

You will not find ONE PERSON among every theologian, priest, etc. Who has come out in public and obstinate dissent against this teaching who has ever been branded a heretic and excommunicated for doing so. Simple as that.
 
LaSainte said:
That’s not what I meant to say. Put more clearly, there is no knowledgeable priest, theologian or pope who believes that contraception falls into the first category of things which require “divine and catholic faith”.
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Such would be an incorrect statement.
 
To all…please take some time to sit and read etc the document …maybe a couple of times …

before set your horses to run…
 
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