Do you believe that the SSPX will eventually become officially canonically recognized?

[commenter]

“…Organizations are founded for a purpose, but after a few decades the organization, itself, becomes the main purpose. Even good and decent people, in administration, fight tooth and nail to preserve the organization’s existence, specifically the positions in the SSPX hierarchy. This was not the case in the 1970s and 1980s SSPX but is now.” from Commenter

There was a time when I viewed the SSPX as you do, but I changed my mind. You are entitled to your opinion of course.

Thank you for your gentle reply. My mind is open to new conclusions based on new data. Please note that in my last para I didn’t label the leaders as bad people. Sometimes organizations, even those with good people, take on a life, a momentum of their own.

 

[Denise1957]

“…Organizations are founded for a purpose, but after a few decades the organization, itself, becomes the main purpose. Even good and decent people, in administration, fight tooth and nail to preserve the organization’s existence, specifically the positions in the SSPX hierarchy. This was not the case in the 1970s and 1980s SSPX but is now.” from Commenter

Thank you for your gentle reply. My mind is open to new conclusions based on new data. Please note that in my last para I didn’t label the leaders as bad people. Sometimes organizations, even those with good people, take on a life, a momentum of their own.

Thanks for noting that you didn’t label the leaders as bad people. I agree that organizations can sometimes take on a life or momentum of their own. I think that this has happened to a certain extent in the SSPX, but it can’t really be helped, given what they stand for. Bishop Fellay has stated that their situation isn’t really a long-term solution (or words to that effect), and that it isn’t a good thing to be in their situation. He knows the problems associated with being in an irregular status. Hopefully, the conditions for reconciliation will be more favorable at some point in the future.

 

[Denise1957]

Thanks! I had forgotten the correct term. Yes, it’s possible that they’d still need the bishops permission. It’s been awhile since I’ve studied how the prelature status works. I’ll try to look up and do some research to see how other personal prelatures currently work exactly, regarding the need for the bishop’s permission.

In doing a little research on the subject, I think that the local ordinary would indeed have to approve a personal prelature in his diocese. But now that I think about it, I don’t think that this would work for the SSPX. I could be wrong, but I think that the Pope or CDF would have to come up with a specific design of a prelature for the SSPX, as it did for the Anglican ordinariate in 2009, which seems to have been tailored for their specific situation.

 

[TMC]

…

Organizations are founded for a purpose, but after a few decades the organization, itself, becomes the main purpose. …

Good comments all, but this sentence in particular is true in so many ways for so many organizations.

 

[ProVobis]

The SSPX leaders now give a much higher priority to the continuation of the SSPX organization structure than to the other things. It’s not a means to an end, it’s an end in itself. They don’t want “the dust to settle”. As long as SSPX leaders nurture uncertainty in the mind of the laity, most of them will perpetuate the SSPX structure. Thus, there’s always going to be more dust in the air. They will see to it. Official statements by Vatican officials directly involved, are ignored.

Can’t the same be said for some religious orders? What about the Jesuits who at one time were suppressed by the Church, until a later Pope restored them? What were they doing for those 40 years? Weren’t they still saying Masses, baptizing, etc.? If they weren’t they would have completely disappeared without support, no?

 

[ChurchSoldier]

I think as the Christian persecution in the West becomes more formalized and many nominal Catholics choose the secular side of the situation, those remaining Roman Catholics and those in the SSPX will be much closer in agreement than things are now. That might allow reconciliation.

 

[commenter]

Can’t the same be said for some religious orders? What about the Jesuits who at one time were suppressed by the Church, until a later Pope restored them? What were they doing for those 40 years? Weren’t they still saying Masses, baptizing, etc.? If they weren’t they would have completely disappeared without support, no?

Jesuits who were priests continued serving as priests in the interim, but not as Jesuit priests. They never were out of obedience to their bishops and pope. They functioned in the Church itself. So the situation is not comparable to the SSPX.

 

[commenter]

I think as the Christian persecution in the West becomes more formalized and many nominal Catholics choose the secular side of the situation, those remaining Roman Catholics and those in the SSPX will be much closer in agreement than things are now. That might allow reconciliation.

I see Catholics falling into 2 groups: those who are loyal and obedient to the Magisterium, including their current pope and bishop; and on the other side, those who are not obedient. It doesn’t matter much why people are disobedient, terms like “liberal” or “conservative” are not useful. They all end up outside the Church.

 

[ProVobis]

Jesuits who were priests continued serving as priests in the interim, but not as Jesuit priests.

Thank you. Just as those who broke off and became FSSP et al.

But I believe my point about maintaining the structure still holds. Actually I’m agreeing with you.

 

[commenter]

Thank you. Just as those who broke off and became FSSP et al.

But I believe my point about maintaining the structure still holds. Actually I’m agreeing with you.

Which “structure” do you mean?

During the time when the Jesuits were suspended, they did maintain, within the “structure” of the Catholic diocese. Individual priests ministered under their local bishop, to congregations of laity who were also “maintained” under their local bishop, within the structure of the diocese. The Jesuits didn’t maintain laity in a holding pattern apart from the local diocese, for 40 years. Laity who were attached to the Jesuits prior to, and during their suspension, remained fully in union with their bishop, with non-Jesuit clergy, and with other laity in their area. They weren’t isolated.

Yes, Jesuits tried to keep up contact with other Jesuits as much as possible. That did not affect laity attached to ministries the Jesuits were involved with. Compare the situation of laity attached to ministries of those men, back then, with the situation of laity now attached to chapels and ministries of SSPX.

 

[ProVobis]

Which “structure” do you mean?

The one you referred to in post #43.

But as I see this is turning into a circular argument and we may be talking past each other, I will kindly refrain from further trying to put things into perspective here. As I’ve stated before, I have no dog in this fight, as I don’t plan to be visiting SSPX chapels anytime soon. I have my own reasons for doing so, however.

 

[codefro]

The SSPX almost came into an agreement with Rome in 2012. I’m not too sure if negotiations are still going on between the Society and Rome. Do you believe that the SSPX will eventually become officially canonically recognized?

I’m sure people thought the Orthodox would be reconciled shortly, but alas…

 

[pnewton]

First, I want to acknowledge that I do not think I (or anyone here) has the ability to have a strong opinion on this subject. We all have varying degrees of ignorance. Also, the Holy Spirit can accomplish the impossible as easily as He can the difficult or the easy. That being said, I think the last and best chance for the SSPX to be incorporated into the Church intact came and went with Pope Benedict. Within a generation, those that will return, will do so out of the SSPX, leaving the SSPX without its more moderate members.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

First, I want to acknowledge that I do not think I (or anyone here) has the ability to have a strong opinion on this subject. We all have varying degrees of ignorance. Also, the Holy Spirit can accomplish the impossible as easily as He can the difficult or the easy. That being said, I think the last and best chance for the SSPX to be incorporated into the Church intact came and went with Pope Benedict. Within a generation, those that will return, will do so out of the SSPX, leaving the SSPX without its more moderate members.

I don’t know. Under Francis we have a Bishop who called them “Catholic” and an SSPX who sought the help of a Bishop…We also have a Pope who seems to tolerate viewpoints that even he may believe are wrong for the sake of unity. And we have the word “mercy” being thrown around a lot. Not to mention that Pope Francis has said he thinks his papacy will be short. No doubt calling their best shot at reconciliation behind them is premature at best.

 

[pnewton]

No doubt calling their best shot at reconciliation behind them is premature at best.

Perhaps. Like I said, all opinions are rather speculative. I only addressed their coming in as a* group *though Surely there might be many ways mercy could be extended and perhaps even some creative ways to accomplish the most good with this rather innovative pontiff.

 

[Thomas_White]

I don’t know. Under Francis we have a Bishop who called them “Catholic” and an SSPX who sought the help of a Bishop…

Once a Catholic, always a Catholic (in the eyes of the Church). The Sacrament of Baptism is inviolable. Even the excommunicated remain Catholic.

My guess would be that more SSPX members will return to the Church, and the society will in time just fade away. I tend to doubt the society itself with reconcile with the Church since it has been in opposition to Rome since its inception. But that is only a guess.

 

[commenter]

My guess would be that more SSPX members will return to the Church, and the society will in time just fade away. I tend to doubt the society itself with reconcile with the Church since it has been in opposition to Rome since its inception. But that is only a guess.

I agree there likely will be a slow leak of members to rejoin their local diocese and a parish.
Historically, different kinds of organizations broke with Rome for various reasons. They try hard not to “fade away”. Even if the original grievance can no longer “fill the pews”, they try to attract other people, with different grievances, to take the place of those who leave. There is a small denomination with “Catholic” in its name locally that was founded many years ago for one reason. It uses the word “Catholic” constantly, but now “reaches out” to recruit diverse Catholics who seem to have nothing in common with each other, or the reason the denomination was founded, except a complaint against the local diocese, or they want to use contraceptives, or want to get divorced/remarried, or their parish closed, or the new bishop is too liberal or conservative for them, or, or…

from 1953 movie, the Wild One:
“Mildred: Hey Johnny, what are you rebelling against?
Johnny: Whadda you got?”

 

[Ignatius]

Do you believe that the SSPX will eventually become officially canonically recognized?

The door is wide open, but I don’t think there will be any more initiatives from The Church toward them. Pope Benedict did a great deal to conciliate and bring them home, but he was rebuffed. I wouldn’t expect any future popes to extend such gestures.

As I say, the door is open.Hopefully they’ll take advantage of that, but it is entirely up to them now.

 

[Silver_Thread]

Like what are the teachings of VaticanII? Ecumenism…laughable! The modernists will lose in the end!

 

[pnewton]

Like what are the teachings of VaticanII? Ecumenism…laughable! The modernists will lose in the end!

Those who understand the Church’s teaching on ecumenism ( I will not falsely label them as modernists) are not the ones left without any ministry within the Catholic Church. The teaching of Vatican II, on ecumenism and everything else, is neither modernism, or something one should laugh at.