Do you believe the Flood was a historical event?

[buffalo]

It took 50 years or so for geologists to admit to the Missoula flood. Since then many more catastrophic floods have been added to the list.

Mainstream geology has moved away from uniformatarianism to neo-catastrophism.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Luke 2:1-3: " And it came to pass that in those days there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that the ** whole world ** should be enrolled. This enrolling was first made by Cyrinus, the governor of Syria. And all went to be enrolled, every one into his own city."

Do we take the whole world here literally? Of course not. Neither do we have to take the flood as a literal worldwide flood either.

 

[tabycat]

The Bible tells you how to go to heaven, not how the heavrns go.

 

[HalynaHanya]

I always take the bible literally.
I’ve studied biblical prophecy for many years. All those who said John was on drugs because of his fantastic visions I would say…if you lived in 70AD how would you describe a drone, a nuclear blast, a submarine, …
Just because all is not clear to us now, it will become clear to us.
Yes, the flood did occur just as described.
And as In The days of Noah…
He will not destroy the world with water (instead fire)
What was the days of Noah…homosexuality, prostitution, abortion…
Do you thin we have ADVANCED in these centuries?

 

[farpinho]

You know, I always questioned myself IF the Garden of Eden was in this planet or somewhere else… what if some stories of the Genesis didn’t take place on Earth… remembering human beings were immortal before the Original Sin and we all know that every being (fossil or not) on Earth is/was mortal…
what if Adam and Eve were born outside this world and after they sinned the human souls got transferred to mortal Homo sapiens existing in this Earth?
Isn’t it a little bit weird that Homo sapiens exist for thousands of years and they just started a culture and civilization about 10,000-15,000 years ago? What if these “apes” were lacking a soul?

 

[Farsight001]

It took 50 years or so for geologists to admit to the Missoula flood. Since then many more catastrophic floods have been added to the list.

Mainstream geology has moved away from uniformatarianism to neo-catastrophism.

As a geologist, I can assure you most emphatically that it has done nothing of the sort and that this claim is nothing but a lie.

 

[Jehannette]

As a geologist, I can assure you most emphatically that it has done nothing of the sort and that this claim is nothing but a lie.

Does it matter? Ever hear of “Last Tuesdayism” or “Last Thursdayism”? (Of course, such would depend on the day of the week!) The One and Triune God, being an Infinite Being, could have wiped out life on the surface of the World and simply brought it back – “twinkle, twinkle…” And, such a miracle could have been performed in such a way as to leave no “evidence” whatsoever.

 

[Farsight001]

Does it matter? Ever hear of “Last Tuesdayism” or “Last Thursdayism”? (Of course, such would depend on the day of the week!) The One and Triune God, being an Infinite Being, could have wiped out life on the surface of the World and simply brought it back – “twinkle, twinkle…” And, such a miracle could have been performed in such a way as to leave no “evidence” whatsoever.

Yes, I’ve heard of it. I love that concept. However, I’m not entirely certain of the point you’re trying to make.

 

[Jehannette]

Yes, I’ve heard of it. I love that concept. However, I’m not entirely certain of the point you’re trying to make.

The Deluge was a worldwide event per the unanimous teaching of the Fathers. QED.

 

[RobbyS]

Luke 2:1-3: " And it came to pass that in those days there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that the ** whole world ** should be enrolled. This enrolling was first made by Cyrinus, the governor of Syria. And all went to be enrolled, every one into his own city."

Do we take the whole world here literally? Of course not. Neither do we have to take the flood as a literal worldwide flood either.

On the other hand, we ought to keep our minds open. Darwinism was proposed by an Englishman to whom “gradualism” was a cultural imperative. The Crust of the earth is relatively a thin, unstable layer and we ought not to rule out cataclysms even in relatively recent times. Reproduced to scale, a highest mountains would be barely discernible to our fingers on a twelve inch globe and our oceans but a dampness.

 

[InJesusItrust]

Everything except modern science points to it, even warnings by Mary in Akita talk about a punishment worse than the deluge. People ask where the water comes from, and the bible says from the foundations of the earth. We know more about deep space than what lies beneath our feet.

Besides which, an all powerful God can make the impossible happen. If He can fill Egypt with darkness and yet allow Israelite to have light He can do anything. The Resurrection is also scientifically impossible, yet it happened.

 

[fisherman_carl]

On the other hand, we ought to keep our minds open. Darwinism was proposed by an Englishman to whom “gradualism” was a cultural imperative. The Crust of the earth is relatively a thin, unstable layer and we ought not to rule out cataclysms even in relatively recent times. Reproduced to scale, a highest mountains would be barely discernible to our fingers on a twelve inch globe and our oceans but a dampness.

I understand that. But for cultural reasons, more than scientific, it is more likely to me that it was a local flood. People use to believe the sun went around the earth. The bible seems to imply that. The church used to teach that, not as dogma, but because that is what the culture as a whole believed. Even the Church Fathers would have believed the sun revolved around the earth. Thus, we can not take the Church Fathers to know anything beyond the understanding of the time when it comes to scientific knowledge.

Similarily we can not think the concept of the whole world meant anything beyond the known world of the author at the time it was written. I mean North America wasnt even discovered until the 15th century. And, they didnt even know the world was round in ancient times.

 

[Farsight001]

The Deluge was a worldwide event per the unanimous teaching of the Fathers. QED.

No it wasn’t, and even if they were unanimous on this point, theirs is not doctrinally binding and they are not scientists, if by 2000 year old standards, let alone today. So what reasonable, clear-thinking person would ever consult them for a scientific concept?

And what did this have to do with last Thursday-ism?

 

[Farsight001]

On the other hand, we ought to keep our minds open. Darwinism was proposed by an Englishman to whom “gradualism” was a cultural imperative. The Crust of the earth is relatively a thin, unstable layer and we ought not to rule out cataclysms even in relatively recent times. Reproduced to scale, a highest mountains would be barely discernible to our fingers on a twelve inch globe and our oceans but a dampness.

But we can rule out cataclysms like world wide floods when literally thousands of studies have been done that pretty much prove that, barring a miracle of God where he made it look like it didn’t happen when it really did, there was no world wide flood.

 

[Crumpy]

global warming is not new. I think it’s been going on for some time (like thousands of years) and the flood may have referred to an area of land that is now underwater.

 

[Prieldedi]

I understand that. But for cultural reasons, more than scientific, it is more likely to me that it was a local flood. People use to believe the sun went around the earth. The bible seems to imply that. The church used to teach that, not as dogma, but because that is what the culture as a whole believed. Even the Church Fathers would have believed the sun revolved around the earth. Thus, we can not take the Church Fathers to know anything beyond the understanding of the time when it comes to scientific knowledge.

Similarily we can not think the concept of the whole world meant anything beyond the known world of the author at the time it was written. I mean North America wasnt even discovered until the 15th century. And, they didnt even know the world was round in ancient times.

Mount Ararat is mentioned as the resting place of Noah’s ark. It’s 16945 feet high and the surrounding plains are 2000 to 3000 feet high. When referring to local flood, which geographic area in that region would be low enough to be covered with water, to navigate that inland sea for several months and see no land whatsoever?

Everybody in ancient times “saw” the sun revolve around the earth, they didn’t believe it went around the earth, they “saw” it go around. Hey! even today everybody “sees” the sun go around the earth! This hasn’t changed, the sun it comes out in the east, goes up and around noon is at the highest and then sets in the west. Isn’t this what we all “see” everyday?

A flood is completely different from orbiting celestial objects. If seeing no land (mountains) for months inside an inland see is a local flood, how big a sea are we talking about? Genesis is explicit:

“On the first day of the tenth month the mountain tops could be seen.” Genesis 8:5

This doesn’t sound “cultural” to me, the top of a mountain is the top of a mountain.

Some of you say we should not take the story literally, so when dealing with the flood perhaps we can find a solution for you who put science first. Just like you do with the Creation story, you shouldn’t take the number of days of rain literally. Instead of 40 days think it was 40 weeks, or 40 months, or 40 years. Really, if in Genesis the six “days” creation means for science billions of years, the 40 “days” flood can also mean a very, very long time for you. That way it is possible to accommodate you who put science first, as a flood of that proportion and for so long would eventually cover the whole earth.

Would you accept the scientific possibility of raining for so long on a global scale? I think it’s possible. Jupiter has a storm that has lasted since it was seen for the first time hundreds of years ago. You also believe an asteroid hit the earth 65 millions ago that was capable of killing all the dinosaurs on the face of the earth… not one of them survived! I believe scientists can come up with a theory that can be scientifically strong to support a downpour of global magnitude. I’m not a scientist but I can give you a head start:

Scientists say the earth has been hit by asteroids like forever, right? Well, in Noah’s time a rain of super asteroids of ice crashed into the earth, the friction of entrance melted the ice, part of it fell as rain, part of the resulting water evaporated from the heat, forming rain clouds around the whole world, a cover of clouds of a global scale that lasted years, decades, raining so hard and for so long that it covered the entire earth… and there you have your flood. One asteroid killed the dinosaurs, a rain of ice asteroids caused a global flood. Is this scientifically impossible? Scientists can do the math as to how much ice was needed, this would be no problem for them.

In this way science will not let you down, but you’ll have to admit you were wrong and admit that the flood is scientifically possible. To us, the Genesis story of the flood would still hold its ground. And what I like even better, Moses would be vindicated as no cultural reason can be attributed to his account of Noah, because he was telling the truth.

 

[Jehannette]

No it wasn’t, and even if they were unanimous on this point, theirs is not doctrinally binding and they are not scientists, if by 2000 year old standards, let alone today. So what reasonable, clear-thinking person would ever consult them for a scientific concept?

And what did this have to do with last Thursday-ism?

The Deluge was a miracle. Think of it this way – one minute the Earth existed, the next minute, it did not. How could science ever explain such an event per the conservation laws of nature, the conservation of energy, in particular??? That’s what makes “Science science,” the assumption, observation, belief, etc., that energy is conserved, always and everywhere. With miracles, such is not the case; with a miracle, energy is not conserved.

Think of our Lord Jesus Christ’s Accession. His transformed, glorified body ascended out of the gravity well of the earth under its own volition in full view of those assembled, which means that photons of light were being reflected off of His body. No rockets, no propellers, no hot-air balloon, but all on its own our Lord’s glorified body “defied” the universal law of gravitation. Where’s F=MA in all of this?! If Newton’s Laws do not always apply, ditto for the Deluge, which means that such an event, in spite of its happening, can never be described by the tools of science. It was a miracle which has been revealed to us.

The same is true of Last Tuesdayism/Thursdayism. If the Universe was created 5 days ago and all of the memories that you and I have were planted in our heads, how could you ever disprove such an assertion??? Of course, you can’t! However, we know from Revelation and theology that the One and Triune God is a Perfect Being, and as such, He cannot lie, ever, which means, that He would never plant “false memories” in a person’s head, so Last Tuesdayism/Thursdayism are not true, even though we can never prove “scientifically” that such is not true.

In the end, the Triune God requires faith, and with faith, comes the acceptance of His Revelation to Us as being the ultimate and final authority, in spite of what the ever-changing “science” may “tell” us as being the ultimate truth.

 

[pnewton]

The same is true of Last Tuesdayism/Thursdayism. If the Universe was created 5 days ago and all of the memories that you and I have were planted in our heads, how could you ever disprove such an assertion??? Of course, you can’t! However, we know from Revelation and theology that the One and Triune God is a Perfect Being, and as such, He cannot lie, ever, which means, that He would never plant “false memories” in a person’s head, so Last Tuesdayism/Thursdayism are not true, even though we can never prove “scientifically” that such is not true…

I agree with this. I take it one step further. I do not believe that God would create/plant, false evidence designed to mislead us in the geological or cosmological record, for the same reason you gave. I do not think anyone here is questioning God’s ability to do anything, including literal creation. The question instead is what actually did happen. I have no problem going where the evidence takes me, both Scripture and science. I do not see the conflict between the two while acknowledging the limitation of science.

 

[Jehannette]

I agree with this. I take it one step further. I do not believe that God would create/plant, false evidence designed to mislead us in the geological or cosmological record, for the same reason you gave. I do not think anyone here is questioning God’s ability to do anything, including literal creation. The question instead is what actually did happen. I have no problem going where the evidence takes me, both Scripture and science. I do not see the conflict between the two while acknowledging the limitation of science.

As the late Carl Sagan used to say (a phrase he borrowed), “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” We have evidence of the Deluge, from Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the unanimous teachings of the Fathers.

 

[Farsight001]

The Deluge was a miracle. Think of it this way – one minute the Earth existed, the next minute, it did not. How could science ever explain such an event per the conservation laws of nature, the conservation of energy, in particular??? That’s what makes “Science science,” the assumption, observation, belief, etc., that energy is conserved, always and everywhere. With miracles, such is not the case; with a miracle, energy is not conserved.

Think of our Lord Jesus Christ’s Accession. His transformed, glorified body ascended out of the gravity well of the earth under its own volition in full view of those assembled, which means that photons of light were being reflected off of His body. No rockets, no propellers, no hot-air balloon, but all on its own our Lord’s glorified body “defied” the universal law of gravitation. Where’s F=MA in all of this?! If Newton’s Laws do not always apply, ditto for the Deluge, which means that such an event, in spite of its happening, can never be described by the tools of science. It was a miracle which has been revealed to us.

The same is true of Last Tuesdayism/Thursdayism. If the Universe was created 5 days ago and all of the memories that you and I have were planted in our heads, how could you ever disprove such an assertion??? Of course, you can’t! However, we know from Revelation and theology that the One and Triune God is a Perfect Being, and as such, He cannot lie, ever, which means, that He would never plant “false memories” in a person’s head, so Last Tuesdayism/Thursdayism are not true, even though we can never prove “scientifically” that such is not true.

In the end, the Triune God requires faith, and with faith, comes the acceptance of His Revelation to Us as being the ultimate and final authority, in spite of what the ever-changing “science” may “tell” us as being the ultimate truth.

I have little objection to this. Taking it as an opportunity to express your faith and to consider it a miracle is fine. But people here are claiming that there is scientific evidence for this global flood, and that is a lie.