Do you believe the Kingdom of God is within you?

[simpleas]

I think the answer to the first post is clear.

The Kingdom of God is a real place, not here on earth, but a thing of heaven. If you replace the word awareness for kingdom in the Bible or other texts, it doesn’t exactly fit.

“My kingdom is not of this world”

“The kingdom of God is not a matter of … righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit”

John in Revelation says it is visible “I saw a new heaven and a new earth” and from heaven " coming down out of heaven from God"

“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven”

Also it is something prepared
“inherit the kingdom prepared for you”

It is more than a realization, Jesus would have just called it so, instead he decided to say “kingdom”, which is bigger than just an awareness, though a certain attitude or awareness of this reality is required.

But,
it is also a state of grace, continuous help from God, not from our own efforts to be aware of God or Holy things etc. We can however cooperate with God to become more aware or our sin, God’s love, God’s will etc. In any case, awareness of God and the things of God is itself a grace, a gift of God, which prepares us for a life with God eternal. This life with God starts here but is not of this world, is not complete in this world, it is only perfected in the afterlife, and “eye has not seen, nor ear heard” what it is like.

I am wary of anything coming from CAC and those associated with Fr. Rohr, because I’ve seen consistently that rather unorthodox teachings, unfaithful to the Church have come from there on a regular basis. I have alerted the Bishop there to this situation but have yet to hear back from him one way or the other.

Thanks for your post.

Yes all those quotes you listed are very familiar.

One you left out was :

When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. 21Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

I’m thinking it’s both, it is within and a place we are journeying toward.

 

[simpleas]

Thank you. I have not read it. It is an excellent start for my research.

It is the journalistic Why? which started my curiosity about Jim Marion’s wonderfully insightful and contemporary suggestion in regard to the Kingdom of God. Why would someone remove the reality of the Kingdom of Heaven and call it a metaphor?

The journalistic What? has me wondering what would eventually happen if the state of the Kingdom of God – and the term state can be appropriate in reality – turned out to be nondual consciousness or unitive consciousness.

On the other hand, the spirituality aspects of the Kingdom of God seem endless.

Please refer to the informative post 20. It has lots of points that deserve expanding.

Author Jim Marion’s wonderfully insightful and contemporary suggestion

I think suggestion should be underlined, because that is all it is. A suggestion that opens the mind to think a little deeper…(for me anyway!)

I think the author was speaking of transformation from old ways of thinking, when this happens the world seems like a very different place.
The non separation between God and humans, I think, may be about Jesus’ teaching that he and the father are one.But I could be wrong, so don’t quote me on that…

 

[grannymh]

Thanks for your post.

Yes all those quotes you listed are very familiar.

One you left out was :

When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. 21Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

I’m thinking it’s both, it is within and a place we are journeying toward.

I agree with you that the Kingdom of God is both within and a place we are journeying toward.

It seems to me that the Kingdom of God within is necessary for our journeying to be successful.

 

[grannymh]

The difficulty with Jim Marion’s suggestion, and the numerous authors who are in step with him, is the possibility that leaving the old ways of thinking often includes dropping some of the old teachings of the Catholic Church. Obviously, the author of the meditation wants us to explore so that some of the annoying old teachings of the Catholic Church can be replaced. When our world seems like a different place, the solution is not to change Catholicism to fit someone’s modern tampering.

In Catholicism, what does Jim Marion’s “Kingdom of Heaven” actually teach? Does Catholicism teach that there is a separation (difference) between the Creator and the creature? A difference between the King and his people? If the Kingdom of Heaven is simply a metaphor for a human state of consciousness, why does Catholicism teach the necessity of a Divine Jesus? Certainly, a human prophet, like some modern humans, can address a state of “nondual consciousness” or “unitive consciousness.”

In plain English, if there is no separation between God and humans, what would be the purpose of morality? If there is no separation between God and humans, then we are currently living in heaven here on earth. Does the day’s breaking news confirm heaven on earth? Jim Marion’s tactic is to claim a human “state”. This is a good distraction. Humans can be in a variety of “states”. There is the State of Sanctifying Grace. There is the State of rejecting the Ten Commandments.

Personally, I think there is the state of exaggeration.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The human person is worthy of profound respect.

 

[grannymh]

Quick clarification regarding the first sentence, last paragraph in post 25.

The sentence "In plain English, if there is no separation between God and humans, what would be the purpose of morality? " is a conditional “if” something happens …

The “if” sentence is necessary because there are others besides Jim Marion, who work with some form of “non-dualism” and whatever else that represents.

The idea that the Kingdom of Heaven is really a metaphor for a state of consciousness should raise a red flag.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

If you are in Christ, then Christ is in you.

Being He is the King of Heaven and earth, His kingdom exist where ever He is.

St Teresa of Avila wrote about mental prayer, that when we pray, the King is in our presence, that is, within the depth of our being. She wrote that the King brings His court with Him, that is, His mother Mary our Blessed Mother, and the Saints.

So, the Kingdom of God dwells within and is presence to all those who are in union with our King, Jesus Christ.

Jim

 

[simpleas]

If you are in Christ, then Christ is in you.

Being He is the King of Heaven and earth, His kingdom exist where ever He is.

St Teresa of Avila wrote about mental prayer, that when we pray, the King is in our presence, that is, within the depth of our being. She wrote that the King brings His court with Him, that is, His mother Mary our Blessed Mother, and the Saints.

So, the Kingdom of God dwells within and is presence to all those who are in union with our King, Jesus Christ.

Jim

Thank you for your post.

Now if you could tell me in what way does the Kingdom dwelling within you effect your every day life, what is means to you, I would be grateful.

Should we say the kingdom of God is in everyone, baptised and unbaptised?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Thank you for your post.

Now if you could tell me in what way does the Kingdom dwelling within you effect your every day life, what is means to you, I would be grateful.

Should we say the kingdom of God is in everyone, baptised and unbaptised?

IT doesn’t, HE does.

Don’t misunderstand. It’s not a constant awareness of God’s presence, but it comes and goes daily.

However, the experience of Christ’s love, has a transforming effect, which is called transforming grace.

I’m a great sinner. But by the mercy and love of God in Jesus Christ, I have been redeemed.

Jim

 

[anon65111186]

Jim is right, it is not constant awareness every waking hour, because our attention goes to many different things. It is ideal to be aware of God as much as possible, and on “seek(ing) first the kingdom”, but I think even the Saints weren’t always aware of God the way they would have liked.

The Kingdom of God is also about the rule of the King, Jesus Christ. Following God’s rules and laws is one way we further the kingdom of heaven.

The kingdom as “place” or “goal” is not excluded from Jesus’s definition. But it is definitely more than that.

It is the influence of Jesus on our hearts, to do good and avoid evil.

It is a state of mind, being one with Jesus, and with all the saints who are in this kingdom.

It is the “the holy city, the New Jerusalem”, which is the Church here on earth and in Heaven.

It is a mystery, not a mystery to be solved but a mystery one must be a part of to understand fully. It has many aspects, and is an experience of God’s grace.

I hope that helps,
Tim

 

[simpleas]

IT doesn’t, HE does.

Don’t misunderstand. It’s not a constant awareness of God’s presence, but it comes and goes daily.

However, the experience of Christ’s love, has a transforming effect, which is called transforming grace.

I’m a great sinner. But by the mercy and love of God in Jesus Christ, I have been redeemed.

Jim

Thanks.

Yes I would agree with the experience of Christ within as being present and some times not, I think Christ is always present, but that we fail in our awareness to realise it fully.

 

[simpleas]

Jim is right, it is not constant awareness every waking hour, because our attention goes to many different things. It is ideal to be aware of God as much as possible, and on “seek(ing) first the kingdom”, but I think even the Saints weren’t always aware of God the way they would have liked.

The Kingdom of God is also about the rule of the King, Jesus Christ. Following God’s rules and laws is one way we further the kingdom of heaven.

The kingdom as “place” or “goal” is not excluded from Jesus’s definition. But it is definitely more than that.

It is the influence of Jesus on our hearts, to do good and avoid evil.

It is a state of mind, being one with Jesus, and with all the saints who are in this kingdom.

It is the “the holy city, the New Jerusalem”, which is the Church here on earth and in Heaven.

It is a mystery, not a mystery to be solved but a mystery one must be a part of to understand fully. It has many aspects, and is an experience of God’s grace.

I hope that helps,
Tim

Thanks.

In your post 20 I thought you were thinking that the Kingdom is a place, but it seems you think it is both too.

These two statements stand out for me :

It is the influence of Jesus on our hearts, to do good and avoid evil.

It is a state of mind, being one with Jesus, and with all the saints who are in this kingdom.

The first one seems easy to understand, Jesus as an influence to help guide us.
The second a little more difficult, being one with Jesus.
Can a person be one with Jesus, maybe there is different definitions for being one with Jesus, because Jesus seems so perfect as a human that one doesn’t always believe they could ever live up to his level of understanding, forgiveness and self sacrifice.
We try, and try very hard, but there seems to always be a fault somewhere.

 

[anon65111186]

Yes simpleas, but I think not a place on earth in the way we imagine, like my house or a park is a place. Perhaps I should have qualified that. It is of heaven, but we participate in it through Christ here on earth.

It is hard to get an exhausitive definition though, because it encompasses so much.

It is physical in the sense that we can have our glorified physical bodies there (heaven). But it is also beyond the physical, spiritual.

I think on the physical side of things, the kingdom is present in the Eucharist, His followers, sacred objects, sacred places, and wherever two or more of His disciples are gathered.

But again, the spiritual and the physical are one in us, just as the kingdom has a physical and spiritual aspect.

I think being one with Jesus is doing as He did, or would want us to do. It is imitating Christ, and therefore resembling Him in our character, our nature.

The more we are like Christ, the more we are one with Him.

Sameness is oneness in that way.

If people can see Christ in us, then we are one in Him, and He is one in us.

We are not perfect, but the more we are one with Christ, the more perfect we become, and the less error there is in us.

Anyhow, may God bless you, and Christ be one with you!
Tim

 

[Galnextdoor]

Thanks for your post.

Yes all those quotes you listed are very familiar.

One you left out was :

When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. 21Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

I’m thinking it’s both, it is within and a place we are journeying toward.

According to the Catholic Catechism the Kingdom of God is the Church. The church consists of those living on earth and those who have gone before us in Christ. The Church is Christ’s Bride.
://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p1.htm

CC 1026 “Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.”

The completion of the Kingdom of God is what the communion of saints is all about. Those who make it to heaven will be in communion with each other in a way that we could never experience here on earth. We here on earth are in communion with the saints when we pray to them, and pray for the souls in purgatory. But our communion will be perfect in the end when we are all united in the perfect Mystical Body of Christ. St. Pope John Paul II talked about this in “Theology of the Body.”

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

If so, is it easy to explain?

Is the Kingdom of God a place we might go to after death (Heaven).

Is it both?

This daily mediation does make one think deeply about what it means to follow the teachings of Jesus :

*Jesus himself specifically contradicts it when he says, “The Kingdom of Heaven is within you” (that is, here) and “at hand” (that is, now). It’s not later, but lighter—some more subtle quality or dimension of experience accessible to you right in the moment. You don’t die into it; you awaken into it.
*

Where is it, then? Author Jim Marion’s wonderfully insightful and contemporary suggestion is that the Kingdom of Heaven is really a metaphor for a state of consciousness; it is not a place you go to, but a place you come from. [1] It is a whole new way of looking at the world, a transformed awareness that literally turns this world into a different place.

Full mediation :

cac.org/the-kingdom-of-heaven-2017-04-11/

Oh goodness.

I checked the website and I see that Rev. Fr. Richard Rohr, OFM, is somehow part of this. I really am sorry to say this and I really do not like to put down a Catholic priest, but whenever and wherever I see him speak or write I see, in the wake of his words, a muddling of Church teaching to accommodate his idea of ecumenism he calls “The Perennial Tradition”:

The Perennial Tradition encompasses the recurring themes in all of the world’s religions and philosophies that continue to say:

- There is a Divine Reality underneath and inherent in the world of things,
- There is in the human soul a natural capacity, similarity, and longing for this Divine Reality, and
- The final goal of existence is union with this Divine Reality.

cac.org/living-school/program-details/the-perennial-tradition/

And it seems this muddling of “the Kingdom of God” into just “a state of consciousness” is another attempt to soften a Church teaching for such a purpose.

SO what is the Kingdom of God? First off, what is a kingdom? Isn’t a kingdom the place where the king reigns? Well, that’s what the Kingdom of God is: it is where God reigns as King. Pure and simple.

Now how can God’s reign “in you” as Jesus said?

Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, ‘Lo, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of other translations say within] you.” Luke 17:20-21

Let us read one of Jesus’s parables:

“A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they had not much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched; and since they had no root they withered away. Other seeds fell upon thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. Other seeds fell on good soil and brought forth grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. He who has ears, let him hear.” Matthew 13:3-9

Luckily, Jesus explains to His disciples and to us what the parable meant:

“When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.” Matthew 13:19-23

In other words, the Kingdom of God is in you when you listen to and understand Jesus Christ’s words through Scripture, prayer, and His Church’s teachings, and live those words. As the Catechism, through Galnextdoor’s post above, says,

CCC 764 To welcome Jesus’ word is to welcome “the Kingdom itself.”
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p1.htm

 

[simpleas]

Yes simpleas, but I think not a place on earth in the way we imagine, like my house or a park is a place. Perhaps I should have qualified that. It is of heaven, but we participate in it through Christ here on earth.

It is hard to get an exhausitive definition though, because it encompasses so much.

It is physical in the sense that we can have our glorified physical bodies there (heaven). But it is also beyond the physical, spiritual.

I think on the physical side of things, the kingdom is present in the Eucharist, His followers, sacred objects, sacred places, and wherever two or more of His disciples are gathered.

But again, the spiritual and the physical are one in us, just as the kingdom has a physical and spiritual aspect.

I think being one with Jesus is doing as He did, or would want us to do. It is imitating Christ, and therefore resembling Him in our character, our nature.

The more we are like Christ, the more we are one with Him.

Sameness is oneness in that way.

If people can see Christ in us, then we are one in Him, and He is one in us.

We are not perfect, but the more we are one with Christ, the more perfect we become, and the less error there is in us.

Anyhow, may God bless you, and Christ be one with you!
Tim

Thank you for your thoughts, they are much appreciated

 

[fhansen]

If so, is it easy to explain?

Is the Kingdom of God a place we might go to after death (Heaven).

Is it both?

This daily mediation does make one think deeply about what it means to follow the teachings of Jesus :

*Jesus himself specifically contradicts it when he says, “The Kingdom of Heaven is within you” (that is, here) and “at hand” (that is, now). It’s not later, but lighter—some more subtle quality or dimension of experience accessible to you right in the moment. You don’t die into it; you awaken into it.
*

Where is it, then? Author Jim Marion’s wonderfully insightful and contemporary suggestion is that the Kingdom of Heaven is really a metaphor for a state of consciousness; it is not a place you go to, but a place you come from. [1] It is a whole new way of looking at the world, a transformed awareness that literally turns this world into a different place.

Full mediation :

cac.org/the-kingdom-of-heaven-2017-04-11/

It’s kind of like asking, ‘Where is heaven-is it a state or a place or both?’ In any case it’s the “place” where God is, where we encounter Him, where we commune with Him, where we know Him. And we begin to encounter Him now, in this life, most completely via encountering Jesus. But that’s still not the be all and end all of it: “For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” 1 Cor 13:12. Our communion with God is only complete “then”, with the Beatific Vision, the full knowledge of God.

 

[grannymh]

In other words, the Kingdom of God is in you when you listen to and understand Jesus Christ’s words through Scripture, prayer, and His Church’s teachings, and live those words. As the Catechism, through Galnextdoor’s post above, says,
CCC 764 To welcome Jesus’ word is to welcome “the Kingdom itself.”
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p1.htm

Thank you for your post. I am learning.

When we examine this tread’s topic, we first need to study the relationship between the Kingdom of God and the human State of Sanctifying Grace. When we are in the State of Sanctifying Grace, do we share in God’s life? Is God’s life an essential component of the Kingdom of God?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

+JMJ+

In other words, the Kingdom of God is in you when you listen to and understand Jesus Christ’s words through Scripture, prayer, and His Church’s teachings, and live those words. As the Catechism, through Galnextdoor’s post above, says,

But the thing is listening to and understanding Jesus Christ’s words through Scripture, prayer, and His Church’s teachings, and living those words requires a particular “state of consciousness” that one can arrive at through grace. The “nondual” language can be misleading. It sounds like monism. But I think the reality is that we do participate in a divine unity but retain our individuality. We reflect the Holy Trinity in that way, the three who are one. But it takes an insight, a consciousness to see through plurality to unity (nondual) while at the same time fully appreciating our individuality. The more we can become transparent, the more our egos can sync with God, as the Son synced with the Father, the more we participate in God’s will and Kingdom.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I am wary of anything coming from CAC and those associated with Fr. Rohr, because I’ve seen consistently that rather unorthodox teachings, unfaithful to the Church have come from there on a regular basis. I have alerted the Bishop there to this situation but have yet to hear back from him one way or the other.

It may be a long wait. Let us know when you hear something.

I am currently reading his The Divine dance: The Trinity and Your Transformation.

I find it to be pretty refreshing. Of course it is impossible to speak about divinity without pushing language to its limits.

 

[Galnextdoor]

It may be a long wait. Let us know when you hear something.

I am currently reading his The Divine dance: The Trinity and Your Transformation.

I find it to be pretty refreshing. Of course it is impossible to speak about divinity without pushing language to its limits.

Before you give any credence to the “Divine Dance…” I suggest you dig up information on what the author has to say about the “Cosmic Christ.” This guy believes that Christ came twice, first in the Big Bang and then when he was born. He says that Christ is in the rocks, trees, grass and us, equally. He says that we are not superior to animals. He call the sun, Brother Sun and the moon, Sister Moon. He has elaborate solstice celebrations. He has been reprimanded for not teaching according to the Catholic Church. He agreed to move his teachings more in line with what the Catholic Church teaches, but he has not. Every time a piece of literature from his organization that is contrary to Catholic teaching gets posted and someone makes a link to it, the link gets broken or the link takes you to something else.

I posted about the author of the “Divine Dance” on this site before. My post was taken down and most of the links that I posted were broken within hours of my post. I don’t think CAF broke the links.

I know someone who was in IT for a large corporation. He said that large corporations sometimes employ an IT person to search the internet for negative things about the company and then crash the site or break the links. It’s called scrubbing the internet. A university in California tried to get the internet scrubbed of a certain incident, but were not successful because too many news outlets carried it. People accused the Republicans of scrubbing Melania Trump’s background info. from the internet. There are companies that advertise that they will scrub the internet for you. I would suspect that someone does this for the author, but I have no idea if he is aware of it.

Here is a review of the “Divine Dance…” The reviewer says that the author has taken Trinitarian terminology and applied it to his own brand of religion. I think the author does this with everything he writes. He takes Catholic terminology and uses it to mean something different than what the Catholic Church teaches.

thegospelcoalition.org/article/book-review-the-divine-dance

May God bless you and give you Grace to keep you on the right path.