Do you believe there is one true church?

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It was granted. I have posted a link to the documents; the safe-conducts are recorded in the documents, along with the dates.

A moot point; they were granted.

A moot point; they were granted.

His own theology was not substantially different from Catholic theology at that time. It was other Protestants who were denying the motherhood of Mary, reducing the Sacraments, insisting on the Bible alone, etc. - Luther still believed in the teachings of the Church.

Therefore, his motivation was not theology.

Calvin’s motive was theology, and Menno’s motive was theology, (and they disagreed with each other) but Luther’s motive was something else.

But we would not have had either Calvin or Menno without Luther.
Do I believe there is one true church? Absolutely, positively, without a shadow of a doubt. And that true church is founded on Jesus Christ with “Peter” as its head. “Peter” resides in Rome
and as one looks up from St Peters Sq, at the papal appartments and sees the light on, one is comforted in the knowledge that Peter is home and all is well and we are not “left orphans”
Grace Angel.
 
Is there only one true Christian church?

I would like your answer to this question.

In other words: Did Jesus intend for there to be so many different churches? Why / why not??
Is there only on true Christian Church? Yes

In other words: Did Jesus intend for there to be so many different churches? No

Why/Why Not?? The ‘why not’ is best answered with a question back. That question being ‘Why?’ Why would Jesus want a bunch of Churches? He built his Church on St. Peter. He TOLD us so. He sent out the apostles to set up, administer, and pass on HIS Church. So when asked why not, i.e. why wouldn’t he want all these churches, I can only ask back, why would he?? There is no satisfactory answer to that.

Every new splinter goup church since Luther and Calvin has taken something AWAY from the original Church set up by Peter and the Apostles. Only one Church has stood by the original concepts.

The good news is that all the various splinter Christian Churches are invited back to form the whole at any time! We KNOW that satan will not prevail against the Church established by Christ! Praise be to God. And since the one church will stand for the fullness of time, I have to believe that we will all be brought back together in the fullness of time.

As far as I can tell, from the theological information available, from prayer, from discernment, and bumping around a bit myself to a few Churches in my day, that FAITHFULLY practicing Jews, and FAITHFULLY PRACTICING Catholic Christians who are in communion with Rome are sitting pretty good when measured and tested against History, the Bible, the Apostles, and the Church Fathers. All other Churches SEEM to me, (just MY interpretation of things), to have too many flighty and changeable ideas and have all decreased in the practice of God’s word by degrees. It was making me a bit nervous, I know. I’m getting too old to goof around any more. The Catholic faith has a magesterium to keep us all viewing God’s desires in the SAME way. It has succeeded from the Seat of Peter, right on up to today.

There is some possibility that some of the other Churches are doing some most things right. Who will keep them that way if they are?? How do they know for sure, (or at least close enough to sure).

It’s wonderful that the other Churches keep most of God’s work alive, and we all agree on some of the principles that Jesus and his chosen taught, but it’s all a little to mysterious for me anymore. I’m through messing with it. I KNOW that the Catholics are following it all. I never have to worry or wonder. I have can have full faith, and find a zillion things to reassure me.

Peace to you. I hope some of the replies here on this thread answer some of your questions.

Yours in Christ,

Steven

Yours in Christ,

Steven
 
What sort of diversity are we talking about?
Thank you. Racial diversity is inevitable as the Church straddles the globe. It is good when it hits even a local church, which is more and more common.

I was thinking more however of the diversity of relationships with God, and beliefs in His power, might, love and care; the intimacy of one’s relationship with Christ; the presence or otherwise of the communion of saints and martyrs; the idea of priestly intercession or mediation by Christ; transubstantiation; divorce and annulment; authority and democracy in the application of church doctrine; our understanding of the OT intentions of God, and the NT’s description of the life, nature and mission of Christ himself. Each denomination has a different take on important aspects of belief, of faith, and I think it is this diversity that keeps interpretation clean, that allows those who have strong practical social consciences to join certain churches, and those who prefer to be led by strongly applied doctrine to join others.

A diverse home (in my Father;s house are many mansions, and if it were not so I would have told you) provides comfort, and a base for Christian action for people of diverse beliefs. Sort of like sociable weavers.
 
Yes, right. That’s an incredibly naive opinion. I don’t know of any serious Reformation historian who thinks that at this point there was any possibility that Luther’s ideas would have been taken seriously at Trent–any more than there was any possibility that the Protestants would have accepted the result of a General Council (however called) if it had contradicted the Gospel as they understood it.

Several other points to consider:
  1. Luther died a few months after the first session of Trent opened, and I don’t think the Protestant theologians were invited till later, but I could be wrong there.
  2. There was a debate among the Fathers of Trent as to whether Protestants should be given a safe-conduct to come to Trent. In the absence of such a safe-conduct, a condemnation of Protestant views as heretical (which as I said was pretty much a foregone conclusion by this point) would quite likely have been followed by the arrest and execution of the Protestant leaders. Even a safe-conduct wasn’t foolproof. Hus had been burned by the Council of Constance in 1415 in spite of an imperial safe-conduct (under almost exactly the same circumstances in which Protestants were being invited to Trent–the main difference was that the controversy wasn’t anywhere near as advanced or as inflamed in the case of Hus). Charles V, the reigning emperor, had refused to follow Emperor Sigismund’s dishonorable example when Luther came to Worms in 1521 (something you conveniently ignore, BTW–Luther put his life in grave danger on that occasion). But it was still iffy.
  3. Finally, Luther specifically had been under the ban of the empire ever since 1521, so again without a safe-conduct it would have been suicide for him to appear at Trent.
Your argument is self-serving special pleading. I continue to be amazed at how vitriolic you think you have to be toward Protestantism. The Pope doesn’t talk this way. Why would a former Protestant talk this way? Where’s all that Catholic boasting about how ex-Protestants aren’t anti-Protestant? It’s certainly not true in your case!

Rather, Luther had become convinced by the early 1520s that the Papacy and hence the Catholic Church as a whole had gone seriously off the rails doctrinally, and that these doctrinal errors were the cause for the abuses. From his point of view Trent was putting skin lotion on a cancer. The problem was that the Catholic Church had obscured, if not rejected the Gospel.

You don’t need to attack Luther’s motivation–such a tactic is dubious, distasteful, and pointless. All you need is to show that Luther was wrong in believing that the Catholic Church had abandoned or even seriously obscured the Gospel. I think Luther was wrong, and I think that’s good enough reason to question Protestantism. You don’t need to distort history and put the worst construction on Luther’s motivations–and if you did then it would mean that you didn’t have much of a case, so it would of course still be wrong!

Edwin
Thank you so much for this authoritative note, which has been needed for weeks. I could not do it, altough I posted a two pager on another thread. Some of us have have talked so long off the top of our heads about this that several decent discussions have been badly skewed by lack of knowledge of the events surrounding the schism, central to the history of our diverse universal church of Christ.

We too often attribute bad, self-serving, or indecent motives to people who in their own right were Christians of great merit.
 
There’s one Church (Matt. 16:18). But it is not Catholic, Lutheran, or otherwise. It is that Church composed of those who seek not to push a certain creed or doctrine, but who openly profess Yeshua Messiah, without shame. It is a Church composed of hearts washed clean by the Lamb’s blood … Hearts that are united in him. It is a Church of spirits who are light now, having lost the chains that formerly weighed them down. It is a Church declaring, “God is love! God is light! We, his sons and daughters, are his love made clear, and we are lights for him!”

One day soon, we’ll be able to see that all this time bickering, all this descent in the Church, only served to lose souls, and, in the end, solved nothing–nothing at all.
 
Councils don’t (didn’t) execute people. The Church was only authorized to question people, then tell the state whether or not they were heretics… The state then took it upon itself to punish the heretic as it saw fit. In those days, heretics were seen as being a threat to the stability of the state…If heresy was considered treason… well, then, Treason has always been an executable offense…
Sophistry? This is not helpful. And one of the concerns of the reformers was the intervention of civil authorities in the affairs of the Church.
 
I answered the core question. Perhaps my answer was not the answer you wanted. In which case you can provide your own answer. Fair enough?
I think perhaps that the answers, the discussion, that followed your posting are fair enough - they are informed, substantive and helpful in our understanding of the reformation and schism.
 
That is an interesting thesis. An athiest friend of mine argues that irreperable changes occur every 22-generations.

He argues vehemently that 22-generations x 100-1 * ultimately Christianity is doomed to fail as it will become so fragmented, watered down, no one will be able to recall what the original message was, much less so Christ on Whom it was founded :(*

I perpetrated these quotes in an attempt to define ‘the one true church’ in the original question. I have not had comments on my observations/understandings, and it would help. See # 233 and #235 above.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?
p=2122634#post2122634
 
And I completely agree, with you also. Where do these born again somethings think they get their scriptures from anyway?
Grace Angel.
Excuse me? This kind of cackled response from a Christian gives me shivers up and down my spine, raises my hackles, and offends my conscience. What would you do if you met someone who was *really *different from you?
 
A lot of Posters are hard on a lot of people.

It is possible to say contrary things in a charitable way… I would appreciate if everyone on this forum would try to be a little more “Christian” toward each other… whether they themselves are Christian or not… :rolleyes:
I see you are a new member. I have run the gauntlet during the past month, and barely made it past the trauma. I am not sure why I am still posting. Be strong, be courageous, ignore spiteful infighting, and look for the truths that are present everywhere for the looking. And try not to give up.

Love from Carol
 
Originally Posted by Traveller1534 View Post
well I guess you are in a state of extreme or should I call it magisterial denial about the travesties that MANY priests in your church have caused. If the numbers are so many less than other churches, then show me who else has over a billion dollars in lawsuits pending for sexually abusing children???"

Nobody says that members of the Catholic Church are saints. They most certainly are sinners otherwise Christ’s sacrifice on the cross is in vain and there wouldn’t be any necessatiy for Jesus’ suggestion for the Sacrament of reconcilliation to be established. If Churches were to be judged by what some of their leaders do, then all churches could not be trusted for each has its own share of some skeletons in her closet. The fact is the Catholic Church is Holy because the head, Jesus Christ is Holy.😃
 
Jack respectfully, its those born again somethings who come to this forum and sprout their beliefs. We who come here (me especially) come here because it is meant to be a fantastic catholic forum. this means like minded, or similar minded, or on the same journey and just needing direction, or just sharing a moment of life together etc.
There are several posters who simply post anti catholic diatribe and its not fair. I love being here and I hate seeing/hearing anti catholic rot.
Thank you.
Grace Angel.
Thanks Grace Angel. But if I find rolling laughing pink smiley heads, and think that that is the way a Catholic behaves, then my impression would not be that this is a seriously informed discussion. It makes my heart sad to see jibes made at this level at other Christians - many of them not here to defend the portrayal made of them. There are ways of behaving conscientiously, and ways of not behaving.

Blessings
 
Do I believe there is one true church? Absolutely, positively, without a shadow of a doubt. And that true church is founded on Jesus Christ with “Peter” as its head. “Peter” resides in Rome
and as one looks up from St Peters Sq, at the papal appartments and sees the light on, one is comforted in the knowledge that Peter is home and all is well and we are not “left orphans”
Grace Angel.
I would love to hear your comments on #233 and #235.
 
Thank you so much for this authoritative note, which has been needed for weeks. I could not do it, altough I posted a two pager on another thread.
It is not authoritative. In fact it was successfully refuted shortly after it was posted. It is merely a point of view which supports your own.

Luther’s primary objections were not to Church doctrines. His primary objections were to Church community. Why? Because community of any kind in which he was not personally in control was emotionally intolerable to him.

Although a lack of emotional balance began to emerge in his day-to-day life before the Wittenberg Plague (he overlooked his religious duties while juggling a grueling administrative schedule) it was the horror of mass suffering and death which he, as vicar, stood by and helplessly watched which imho sent him over the edge.

It is plausible that, at that time, he had a relapse into whatever condition led him to join the monastery in the first place (on which occasion he himself said he joined to save himself from regular, frequent, steadily escalating, and brutal beatings by both parents).

He jad been happy within the Church, thrived under Her healing protection, became well respected for his scholarship and diligent service, and was promoted through the ranks to take on ever-increasing responsibilities.

If his troubles were primarily over doctrine then one could have expected his explosion of raging invective to have commenced well before the point in time ten full years after his visit to Rome. But the visit to Rome – so highly touted by his son Paul as the turning point in Luther’s thinking – was if anything overlooked by Luther himself.

That is significant as Luther rarely flinched from justifying his own errors while aggressively insulting others for theirs – whether imagined or real.

The Plague saw Luther descending into the personal hell of scrupulosity. On the one hand, he broke rules and neglected his duties. On the other hand he punished himself for same by locking himself in his room for weeks; going without food, water, and sleep; and torturing himself with harrowing mortifications.

This was a clear indication that he sought his own counsel to interpret and displace the source of his torment from the authority figure of his father who was violent to the authority figure of the Church which was benign: a cognitive distortion on Luther’s part to be sure and one with tragic ramifications.

In other words – because of the disordered thinking which was now flowering unchecked as a result of the stressful conditions of his position – Luther, as his own counsel, rejected outright the structure and care of his community whom he could not bring himself to trust.

It was not because the friends in his community were untrustworthy. It was because he could not bring himself to trust anyone. This decision on his part only served to exascerbate the emotional storm which he was experiencing and which clouded his formidable faculties of reason.

The objections to doctrine which he lodged later were no more than justifications for his own destructive behaviour. The objections were the children of his scrupulosity, a condition which leaves the sufferer with the (wrongful) belief that the torments of guilt cannot be escaped.

Yes, some of his objections had merit for their own sake. But, as has been pointed out many times before, these objections were addressed by the Church and questionable practices were stopped.

Yet the Reformation plunged on heedless of any need for reconciliation and heedless of the fact that many folks would follow Luther’s example by taking advantage of the ensuing political chaos to grab whatever personal power they could.

And as a result, lives were lost.
 
I think perhaps that the answers, the discussion, that followed your posting are fair enough - they are informed, substantive and helpful in our understanding of the reformation and schism.
Maybe. Maybe not. The point was that I answered the core question.
 
Because of the fact that anyone can baptize, including an atheist, unbeliever, pagan, or heretic, as long as it’s in or with water, and in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, then it’s a valid baptism.

From that point on the person is a Christian and is bound by the laws of the New Covenant to go to Mass, receive the rest of the Initiation Sacraments when he or she is of the right age and has been duly prepared for them, and to go to Confession at least once a year, and so forth and so on - but instead of doing that, they instantly join with a heretical and/or schismatic group and follow the teachings of that group.

So, yes, they are validly baptized, but since they don’t then start doing their Christian duties but instead they do other things, then yes, they are separated from the body of the Church, and, if they participate in heresies, then yes, they are heretics.
Oh goodness me: where did this come from!? I thought you were getting your act together, but this is simply the kind of biased opinion that you were setting out a few weeks ago, on the basis of nothing.
 
:clapping:

A little blunt, but hey - sometimes we busy Americans don’t have time for “eloquence”…
Maybe no time for thinking either? Protestants do not believe in purgatory, so it must be populated solely by Catholics. Sad. Our heavenly Father waits.
 
In order to be a heretic, one must know the truth, then willfully turn to it. Most protestants have no idea that what they were taught is not consistent with the teaching of Jesus, and therefore, cannot really qualify for the term “heretic”.
It is not correct to say that ‘protestants have no idea that what they were taught is not consistent with the teaching of Jesus’. This is a gross generalisation, and not worthy of your usual insights.

Protestants have their own views about the teaching of Jesus which at times corroborates the interpretation of the Catholic Church, and at times diverges from it. There are reasons for that, particularly when one assumes that divine inspiration is not limited in any way to the Magisterium of the CC.
 
Thank you. Racial diversity is inevitable as the Church straddles the globe. It is good when it hits even a local church, which is more and more common.

I was thinking more however of the diversity of relationships with God, and beliefs in His power, might, love and care; the intimacy of one’s relationship with Christ; the presence or otherwise of the communion of saints and martyrs; the idea of priestly intercession or mediation by Christ; transubstantiation; divorce and annulment; authority and democracy in the application of church doctrine; our understanding of the OT intentions of God, and the NT’s description of the life, nature and mission of Christ himself.
Other than one’s level of intimacy with God (which certainly varies among Catholics, in all different directions) these are differences in doctrine. Doctrine is either correct or incorrect. One would not like to reach the Judgement Day having deliberately believed things that were not true.
Each denomination has a different take on important aspects of belief, of faith, and I think it is this diversity that keeps interpretation clean, that allows those who have strong practical social consciences to join certain churches, and those who prefer to be led by strongly applied doctrine to join others.
How does it “keep interpretation clean” to believe things that are not really true? :confused:
A diverse home (in my Father;s house are many mansions, and if it were not so I would have told you) provides comfort, and a base for Christian action for people of diverse beliefs. Sort of like sociable weavers.
Yes, there are many mansions. The Catholic Church is one in belief, but there are a great many possibilities for living them out. People of many different lifestyles and approaches to their faith can all worship in the same parish (mine, for instance) while all sharing the same essential set of beliefs. We don’t need to start believing things that aren’t true simply to take on a particular lifestyle.
 
Non-Catholic Christians ***might ***get into Heaven. BUT…they’ll probably have to do time in Purgatory for their heresy and schisms. Those whose traditions have institutionalized sin, such as the Mormons, but be directed ‘downstairs’, forever, straight-away. Sorry.👍
 
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