Do you believe this? Really?

[Iron_Donkey]

I’m not saying they marked days and nights on a calendar but, if they were conscious and experienced feelings of suffering or relative bliss, as the Rich man and Lazarus suggests, then surely some form of time would be involved since they had these experiences for extended periods covering their death to the time of Jesus’ death. They were conscious of their surroundings. Not sure how you could actually argue otherwise.

Sounds fine. There an issue with this? Presumably, there was some level of experience, but a) we have no particular reason to assume that it is the same kind of experience we have now, and b) even if it were (which is not something we assume), while you have asked if we believe it, you haven’t either asked for any details or proposed an objection.

I would love to get into a more in depth discussion, but we need to see what you’re getting at to see how to respond. As it is, we’ve been mostly pointing out things that seem interesting and mildly related, but don’t actually make much difference, such as the fact that a thousand years could very well be precieved as a day (or as an elephant for that matter, we don’t know much about time or any analogous ways of percieving things after death).

While true, there wouldn’t really even be a logical issue with a day in our time being experienced as a million years - the righteous were dead, and were not ready to enter heaven, and so could not until God made them so. And God was not under obligation to do so at all, much less within a certain time frame. So there is no reason to consider a wait to be problamatic.

Note also that questions along the lines of “why didn’t God do this sooner” are not actual objections unless they come with an argument for why He should have done so for us to pick apart. There is no garuntee that we will be able to understand all the reasons why God does what He does, though we can for the most part show that any argument purporting to show that some such thing is irrational fails to do so.

 

[Simca]

I really think there is so much we don’t understand about what happens after death.

Before Jesus died there was the Transfiguration - when Moses and Elijah appeared to talk with Jesus. So where did they come from? ( I know that Elijah did not die, but was taken bodily into heaven.)

Our tradition about Jesus descending into the realm of the dead, I believe, comes from I Peter 3:18-20, where it says that after his death, Jesus went and preached to THE REBELLIOUS, who at the time of the flood, did not believe. I don’t see any reason for Jesus to preach to the righteous because they were already waiting for Heaven to be opened.

You said, 'Then why wouldn’t Jesus rescue them right there and then? Did Jesus say “Hi, sorry you’ll have to wait here a few thousand years till some people kill me before you can leave.” Jesus was the first to enter Heaven** in bodily form**. He was the first to be resurrected because he was ‘The first fruits of all creation’. He was the sinless offering who cleansed us once and for all, so he was the only one who could bodily enter heaven.

I don’t know if Jesus’ parable about the rich man was appropriate to his time only, or if it was meant for all generations-thus pre-figuring every generation before and after his death.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Ad-hominems are always easier than actually dealing with difficulties.

Oh, I think I got a bite. Must be using the right type of bait.

 

[vicwestlad]

zz912:

1. The Patriarchs, the righteous in the time before Christ, and others known only to God.

Ok, so this would have included Moses and Elijah one would guess?

zz912:

1. Some certainly. We don’t know which particular saints appeared. We don’t know if they were known saints from the stories in the Scriptures, or if they were saints that were personally known to those living in Jerusalem at the time of Christ.

I’m not sure which “saints” would personally be known to those living in Jerusalem.

The term “saints” would normally refer to Jewish heroes. So it’s quite a thought that people like Joshua, Noah and Abraham were walking the streets of Jerusalem appearing to people. Any idea why the writers of Mark, Luke, John and Acts never bothered to mention this rather amazing sight, Jewish heroes being brought back to life and appearing to people?

Well after Jesus’ resurrection, both Paul and Peter were trying to convince people that resurrections could happen. Any idea why neither of them pointed to these saints coming back to life and appearing to people in Jerusalem as rather good evidence?

 

[vicwestlad]

JimG:

No, what I am saying is that they may not have experienced time in the same way they did in the temporal realm. Jesus, at the point he ‘descended into hades,’ could have intersected their ‘timeline’ at any point. So that Abraham, or Adam or Moses, might have met Jesus at the moment of their own death, for all I know. It wasn’t that they waited for HIS death. It’s that those two moments could have been simultaneous in the afterlife.

This is getting even more confusing that the point we started at. How did people experience suffering or relative bliss in Abraham’s bosom if they never actually existed there?

And second, if they were met by Jesus at the point of their death and Jesus had died for their sins and so could rescue them but hadn’t even lived yet and therefore hadn’t died yet I’m not sure how this works. You say they would have been met at the point of their death, but thousands of years after Adam and Eve lived, Jesus went to the trouble of descending to Hades to rescue them because they’d been held captive there according to your tradition.

“Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him” (paragraph 635).

This isn’t squaring with your apologetic positon.

JimG:

And keep in mind that the parable of Lazarus was a parable and not a description.

That’s actually highly debated in Christian circles. There are many who say it wasn’t a parable because Jesus doesn’t use names in parables.

 

[vicwestlad]

zz912:

Second, in the Gospel story where Jesus is talking about Lazarus, he mentions that Lazarus is being comforted while waiting there. What is problematic about that?

Some would have been waiting there for thousands of years, like Abraham. What do you think they were doing?

zz912:

Luke 16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.

Why would the rich man be in agony if the final judgement hasn’t even taken place yet?

 

[vicwestlad]

Ophelia23:

I think this is well stated. The point is, it is not “problematic” as stated by the OP. Rather, it is simply mysterious. Outside of our knowledge. Outside of our reasoning. Outside of our time. In other words, it is for God to know intimately and for us to wonder infinitely.

In other words, you can’t make sense of it. I don’t know if the above is really much different than the usual saying “God works in mysterious ways” which has never been a strong position to take.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Jesus told his disciples that, just as Jonah was in the belly of a fish for three days and three nights, Jesus would be in the “heart of the earth” for three days and three nights (Matthew 12:40).

Ever thought about what he was doing during this time? Well, you don’t have to. The Catechism is pretty clear. It says he went to a temporary realm of the dead called Hades (or Sheol) to free those who had been kept there in captivity (many evangelicals believe this too).

This solves a well known Christian problem: If Jesus is the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the father except through Him, what happened to good people, such as Joshua or Abraham, who died before Jesus came to save the world? Jesus himself gives us a clue in Luke:

It appears, from Jesus story, that there are two parts of Hades, a place of torment where bad people went, and a place of non-suffering where the souls of good people went. So the tradition is that Jesus went to bring up the spirits of good people from Hades between his death and resurrection.

Here are some key quotes:

Paragraph 633 of the catechism tells us:

In a letter to his friend Evodius, Augstine said:

So the question is, do you really believe this?

Of course. I’m happy that you have discovered this; it is part of the Apostles’ Creed. Check out line four:

Apostles’ Creed

1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:
3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:
4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:
5. The third day he rose again from the dead:
6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:
7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:
8. I believe in the Holy Ghost:
9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:
10. The forgiveness of sins:

1l. The resurrection of the body:

1. And the life everlasting. Amen.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Based on the evidence of reason? Ok, well let’s see. Who do you think would be in the good part of Hades? Noah? Adam and Eve? How about good people who lived in China or what we now call America? Would they be there too?

What do you think they all were doing for thousands of years?

A Beginner’s Guide to Hell

The Jews envisioned the “underworld” as being made up of She’ol and Gehenna.

She’ol
Also known as Hades, this might correspond to purgatory in Catholic theology. She’ol was divided into four levels:

Upper Upper She’ol
Lower Upper She’ol
Upper Lower She’ol
Lower Lower She’ol

Gehenna
Hell as we understand it today; this is as bad as it gets.

 

[GEddie]

What makes you think they experienced “time” in terms of linear years after the conclusion of their earthly lives?

ETA: Or “space” in a 3-dimensional existence, for that matter?

Indeed, collinear time that we experience is a side-effect of the entropy cooking off in our heads, bodies, and the physical world.

The afterlife domains presumably have no time in the collinear sense, which is why repentance after death does not work.

ICXC NIKA

 

[SuperLuigi]

Based on the evidence of reason? Ok, well let’s see. Who do you think would be in the good part of Hades? Noah? Adam and Eve? How about good people who lived in China or what we now call America? Would they be there too?

What do you think they all were doing for thousands of years?

Catholic teaching covers a couple of concepts here that deal with vincible and invincible ignorance.

People who have lived and not heard the Gospel are not automatically condemned for that.

Catholic teaching also describes the good fate of those who lived before Christ:

newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm

 

[Tom_Baum]

Ever thought that when it says that Jesus went to hell, it means quite simply just what it says?

I have been taught that Jesus died for our sins and that He “paid in full” (It is finished) for our ransom on the cross, anyone else been taught that?

Ever given any thought to the fact that there was much more going on at the cross than just the physical death of Jesus?

 

[tominator2]

1 Peter 3:18-20:

For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit. In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.

When we say “hell” in the Apostle’s Creed, that is a translation of “Hades” which means the abode of the dead, it does not necessarily mean the lake of fire. Jesus descended to the dead (as we say in the Nicene Creed at Mass) and, did what it says he did above. He did not “Preach” to the souls in hell (lake of fire) as there is no hope of salvation for those souls. Christ preaching to them would be a bit like an esochatological end zone dance (if I may say). The spirits in heaven do not require preaching - they enjoy the presence of God.

So, there is some place which is not heaven, which is not hell, and which apparently is not purgatory either. There is a name which some theologians call this place and I forget what it is.

It is not surprising that God has not elected to enlighten us on every aspect of the universe - natural nor supernatural.

May God bless you.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Why would you think that hell and the “lake of fire” are one and the same?

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Trolling on internet forums maybe?

You are an oldcatholicwiseguy, and I like you!

 

[Ion]

If you can’t imagine hell, no problem, you are not the only one.
I’m not even curious…

 

[Della]

Ok, so this would have included Moses and Elijah one would guess?

Yes.

I’m not sure which “saints” would personally be known to those living in Jerusalem.

They would be those known to have led saintly lives.

The term “saints” would normally refer to Jewish heroes. So it’s quite a thought that people like Joshua, Noah and Abraham were walking the streets of Jerusalem appearing to people. Any idea why the writers of Mark, Luke, John and Acts never bothered to mention this rather amazing sight, Jewish heroes being brought back to life and appearing to people?

The Gospel writer doesn’t specify who was raised from the dead–that wasn’t his purpose. He simply offered it as a witness to Jesus’ being the Messiah. The Gospel writers weren’t comparing notes. They included/excluded various incidents because each author wrote his Gospel for a specific audience and for a specific purpose. You might want to consult a good concordance about this issue.

Well after Jesus’ resurrection, both Paul and Peter were trying to convince people that resurrections could happen. Any idea why neither of them pointed to these saints coming back to life and appearing to people in Jerusalem as rather good evidence?

Probably because they died again like Lazarus did. The resurrection the Peter and Paul wrote about is the final resurrection from the dead of which Jesus was the “first fruits” or first person who rose from the dead to die no more.

 

[vicwestlad]

Della:

Yes

So Moses and Elijah were in Hades but they came out for a little while to chat with Jesus on the mountain at the transfiguration? Just want to be clear on your thinking here.

Della:

The Gospel writer doesn’t specify who was raised from the dead–that wasn’t his purpose. He simply offered it as a witness to Jesus’ being the Messiah. The Gospel writers weren’t comparing notes. hey included/excluded various incidents because each author wrote his Gospel for a specific audience and for a specific purpose.

But they all wrote with the purpose of demonstrating that Jesus was a god. This astounding event would have been arguably the most convincing evidence of what they were trying to demonstrate. It’s rather doubtful that most of them wouldn’t have mentioned this as evidence had they known about it. And no other Jewish writer of the time mentioned long dead Jewish saints alive again appearing to people.

Della:

Probably because they died again like Lazarus did. The resurrection the Peter and Paul wrote about is the final resurrection from the dead of which Jesus was the “first fruits” or first person who rose from the dead to die no more.

If they died again of natural causes, like Lazarus, they would have been alive for quite a while, some perhaps for decades.

What do you think they would have been doing for this time back on earth after having been dead, in some cases for hundreds or thousands of years?

And this event would have been known to a great many people. How could you bring a freshly raised Joshua, Noah, and Abraham round to show everyone. Paul and Peter would have been well aware of the power of this event in demonstrating that resurrections happen.

Also, you’re dealing with my responses to zz912 here. But my post back to you included the question about good people who died in other parts of the world, like China and South America, who had never heard of Jesus. Did they go to Hades when they died too?

 

[ahs]

I’m not saying they marked days and nights on a calendar but, if they were conscious and experienced feelings of suffering or relative bliss, as the Rich man and Lazarus suggests, then surely some form of time would be involved since they had these experiences for extended periods covering their death to the time of Jesus’ death. They were conscious of their surroundings. Not sure how you could actually argue otherwise.

What makes you think I am arguing otherwise? I am asking what makes you think they experienced time and space as we (who are here and now) experience time and space.

GEddie explains:

Indeed, collinear time that we experience is a side-effect of the entropy cooking off in our heads, bodies, and the physical world.

The afterlife domains presumably have no time in the collinear sense, which is why repentance after death does not work.

ICXC NIKA

So Moses and Elijah were in Hades but they came out for a little while to chat with Jesus on the mountain at the transfiguration? Just want to be clear on your thinking here.

Why would this not be possible?

But they all wrote with the purpose of demonstrating that Jesus was a god. This astounding event would have been arguably the most convincing evidence of what they were trying to demonstrate…

Just to clarify, not “a god”, but the Word of God Incarnate.

It’s speculative that this would “arguably [be] the most convincing evidence”. I find it more convincing that, despite a lack of information given by the first witnesses on this particular event, that they, along with thousands of other martyrs for the faith, were willing to be put to torturous deaths for their faith in Christ, and that Christianity has survived 2,000 years of persecution, outliving every major empire. That, to me, is more convincing.

 

[zz912]

Ok, so this would have included Moses and Elijah one would guess?

Yes.

I’m not sure which “saints” would personally be known to those living in Jerusalem.

“Saint” is from the root word “sanctus”, which means holy. So it would be the holy ones who had lived during their times possibly. Many people are think that “saints” only includes those who have been canonized by the Church, or the righteous from the OT. It includes anyone who has made it to heaven, and sometimes refers to those living who are in a state of grace with God.

The term “saints” would normally refer to Jewish heroes. So it’s quite a thought that people like Joshua, Noah and Abraham were walking the streets of Jerusalem appearing to people. Any idea why the writers of Mark, Luke, John and Acts never bothered to mention this rather amazing sight, Jewish heroes being brought back to life and appearing to people?

Well the Gospel of Matthew is aimed at an audience of Jewish people, with emphasis on those living around Jerusalem. As such, the reference could have been to give extra emphasis so that the reader could interview those who were around at the time and could back up what was said. As the other books mentioned were not aimed at a Jewish audience, and not at one in Jerusalem, it makes sense that they wouldn’t reference something their audience could verify by interviewing witnesses.

Well after Jesus’ resurrection, both Paul and Peter were trying to convince people that resurrections could happen. Any idea why neither of them pointed to these saints coming back to life and appearing to people in Jerusalem as rather good evidence?

Probably didn’t feel it necessary. Or some other reason known to God. Both Peter and Paul both had miracles of their own that testified to the truthfulness of their testimony.