Do you believe this? Really?

[ProdglArchitect]

So Moses and Elijah were in Hades but they came out for a little while to chat with Jesus on the mountain at the transfiguration? Just want to be clear on your thinking here.

Why is that difficult to believe? They were not damned souls, so why shouldn’t they get to leave if it served God’s purpose?

But they all wrote with the purpose of demonstrating that Jesus was a god. This astounding event would have been arguably the most convincing evidence of what they were trying to demonstrate. It’s rather doubtful that most of them wouldn’t have mentioned this as evidence had they known about it. And no other Jewish writer of the time mentioned long dead Jewish saints alive again appearing to people.

So, because you perceive it to be super important, they should have as well? His miracles were also excellent evidence of his divinity, as was the fact that he was able to bestow his miraculous abilities on his apostles, which was well written about. You cannot presume to know what would be most effective. To do so is intellectually dishonest; perhaps they assumed that it would be discounted by their audience, and chose not to include it because they did not believe its inclusion would accomplish anything. You are not a writer of the gospel, and really have no business faulting them for their chosen focuses.

Also, Moses and Elijah never came down from the mount, and only Jesus, Peter, James and John saw it, and they told of it, otherwise we wouldn’t be aware of it.

Also, you’re dealing with my responses to zz912 here. But my post back to you included the question about good people who died in other parts of the world, like China and South America, who had never heard of Jesus. Did they go to Hades when they died too?

Prior to Jesus, everyone went to Hades. Some went to Hell as we understand it, and some went to Abraham’s Bosom. Those who were innocently ignorant of God were likely judged based on how they lived their lives. Those who were not were likely judged on how well they followed God’s laws. I don’t see why this causes you problem; It’s the same judgment we would receive today if we died, with the same eventual outcome. Once you’re dead, time doesn’t really mean much.

 

[zz912]

Some would have been waiting there for thousands of years, like Abraham. What do you think they were doing?

Why would the rich man be in agony if the final judgement hasn’t even taken place yet?

Again, as has been stated many times, you have trouble comprehending the concept that time is not the same for those after death as compared to us on earth. Is this really something you are having trouble understanding?

And I think you are confused about Particular Judgment and Final Judgment. They are not the same thing. The rich man may have had his Particular Judgment already. Or he is not in hell, but in a waiting place before his particular judgment before going to hell.

 

[zz912]

Ever thought that when it says that Jesus went to hell, it means quite simply just what it says?

No. What is “says” is a translation into English. The original says “hades”. The word for what we think of hell is “gehenna”.

I have been taught that Jesus died for our sins and that He “paid in full” (It is finished) for our ransom on the cross, anyone else been taught that?

“It is finished” (one of the seven last sayings of Christ on the cross) is in relation to the Last Supper, the Paschal sacrifice, and the completion of these. It is why He drank (“I thirst”) the “fruit of the vine” on the cross, b/c He was completing the Last Supper with the 4th Cup.

Ever given any thought to the fact that there was much more going on at the cross than just the physical death of Jesus?

Of course there was. I would hope that every Christian has. It is intimately and completely connected with the Last Supper, the Eucharist, the Pascal sacrifice, the Passover, the suffering in the Garden, His torture and humiliation, and much more.

 

[Della]

So Moses and Elijah were in Hades but they came out for a little while to chat with Jesus on the mountain at the transfiguration? Just want to be clear on your thinking here.

It has nothing to do with “my thinking,” so let’s get that out of the way. Moses and Elijah were delivered from Sheol/Abraham’s bosom when Jesus entered it to free all the souls there. This took place outside of time and space. What is so hard to understand about that? Others have already explained that there is no time, as we understand it, for the dead. They weren’t noshing in Sheol one minute and then with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguartion another and then back in Sheol. Their souls were in God’s care no matter what label we might give to “where” they were.

But they all wrote with the purpose of demonstrating that Jesus was a god.

Ah, no. Jesus is not “a” god. He is the God-man. And they weren’t writing their Gospel solely for the purpose of “proving” this or anything else. They were giving eyewitness accounts of what they were inspired to write. There’s a huge difference in approach, which is why they included some things and left out others.

This astounding event would have been arguably the most convincing evidence of what they were trying to demonstrate. It’s rather doubtful that most of them wouldn’t have mentioned this as evidence had they known about it. And no other Jewish writer of the time mentioned long dead Jewish saints alive again appearing to people.

Astounding events only need to be written about for posterity if people think no one will remember them not as proofs for anything. We remember 9-11, not because it proves we had to go to war with radical Islam, but because it happened. Not every writer of our era has seen fit to write about it in everything they have written. Your proposition isn’t logical.

If they died again of natural causes, like Lazarus, they would have been alive for quite a while, some perhaps for decades.

And were no doubt witnesses to the people of their time that Jesus is the Messiah. Again, I emphasis the word “witness” not prove producers. No doubt a good many people came to believe because of their lives.

What do you think they would have been doing for this time back on earth after having been dead, in some cases for hundreds or thousands of years?

When I get to heaven I’ll ask them. What does it matter to you or me?

[And this event would have been known to a great many people. How could you bring a freshly raised Joshua, Noah, and Abraham round to show everyone. Paul and Peter would have been well aware of the power of this event in demonstrating that resurrections happen.

We don’t have any evidence that the people you mention were among those raised from the dead. Not all of them were buried in the area around Jerusalem. The people of the times didn’t seem to think it such a radical event that it had to be trumpeted, so why do you?

Also, you’re dealing with my responses to zz912 here. But my post back to you included the question about good people who died in other parts of the world, like China and South America, who had never heard of Jesus. Did they go to Hades when they died too?

We cannot be certain of their fate, or that of any other human being, believer or not. But, we do know that God does not expect people to answer for what they could not know. Even so, St. Paul addressed this issue when he wrote that they had creation to tell them there is a God and that they owed him their worship. If they gave him worship, as they understood him, he would accept it. You really need to read the Catechism to see the mind of the Church here.
[/quote]

 

[Gorgias]

No. What is “says” is a translation into English. The original says “hades”. The word for what we think of hell is “gehenna”.

In 1 Peter 3:19, we have * ἐν φυλακῇ πνεύμασιν πορευθεὶς ἐκήρυξεν* (he preached to the souls in prison). In the Apostles Creed, we have “descendit ad inferos” (decended into hell), but scholars believe that many parts of this Creed are derived from Scripture; in this case, they point to Ephesians 4:9 – κατέβη εἰς τὰ κατώτερα μέρη τῆς γῆς (he descended into the lower regions of the earth).

 

[AnimalSpirits]

I don’t get why this particular belief is being singled out as outrageous. In the context of Christianity, it doesn’t seem particularly crazy to me.

 

[vicwestlad]

ahs:

What makes you think I am arguing otherwise? I am asking what makes you think they experienced time and space as we (who are here and now) experience time and space.

In Hades, they have consciousness, which is obvious from the fact that they either suffer or relative bliss. They can communicate as per Luke 16. They have been conscious from the time they died until the time Jesus descended to Hell for three days.
The Catechism says the following:

“Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him” (paragraph 635).

If they had been held captive “in bonds” and “lived” in darkness and then were subsequently freed, I don’t see you can act like some form of conscious time could not have been involved. Since they “lived” “in bonds” until freed at the time of Jesus death, then I’m asking what they were doing during this time.

ahs:

Why would this not be possible?

Didn’t say it was “impossible”. But I would suggest it’s rather strange to think of Moses and Elijah in Hades with Adam and Eve “in bonds” and then let out for a brief period and sent back down to serve out their “captivity” down in Hades.

ahs:

I find it more convincing that, despite a lack of information given by the first witnesses on this particular event, that they, along with thousands of other martyrs for the faith, were willing to be put to torturous deaths for their faith in Christ, and that Christianity has survived 2,000 years of persecution, outliving every major empire. That, to me, is more convincing.

Two things. You should read The Myth of Christian Persecution by Candida Moss to see how exaggerated claims of martyrdom are.

But, more importantly, this “evidence” is easily refuted. If dying and facing torture for one’s faith proved its veracity, then the Muslim faith, the Bahai faith, and others would be true. Since they cannot all be, the logic here does not work.

 

[vicwestlad]

z912:

As the other books mentioned were not aimed at a Jewish audience, and not at one in Jerusalem, it makes sense that they wouldn’t reference something their audience could verify by interviewing witnesses.

Sorry but the reasoning here seems more than a little suspect.

Premise 1: Books about Jesus not aimed at a Jewish audience would not include something that could not be verified by interviewing witnesses, no matter how powerful that evidence for Jesus was

Premise 2: Mark, Luke and John, and Acts and Paul’s letters were not aimed at Jewish audiences.

Conclusion: Therefore, it is not surprising that they didn’t mention a whole bunch of Jewish heroes of the past coming out of their graves, walking into town and meeting people.

The argument is massively flawed but let’s look at the reasons premise 1 fails. There is no reason to assume that non-Jews would be unable to interview people who had seen all these fresh corpses of saints living among the people of Jerusalem. If this had happened, it would have been kinda big news. Imagine a bunch of American presidents, like JFK, Reagan, and George Washington all climbing out of their graves simultaneously appearing to people all over DC. I think it’s safe to say this would appear in all history books of the time whether aimed at Americans, Canadians, or British people.

Second, non-Jews would have been just as unable to verify the virgin birth or turning the water into wine by interviewing witnesses.

I could go on but you see why this argument doesn’t work.

 

[vicwestlad]

ProdiglArchitect:

Why is that difficult to believe? They were not damned souls, so why shouldn’t they get to leave if it served God’s purpose?

But according to Catholic doctrine, those spirits in Hell, like Adam and Eve, were held captive in bonds even though they were good people who would be released by Jesus after his suffering and death. It’s rather strange to say they were kind of let out for a little while so they could have a chat with Jesus.

They don’t seem at all startled to be suddenly back on earth after thousands of years in darkness and bondage. It’s all a little farfetched Pordigl. I understand this involves faith. That’s why the thread asks if you really believe it.
ProdiglArchitect:

So, because you perceive it to be super important, they should have as well?

Oh come on now, Prodigl. It’s not that I personally “perceive” it as important. A bunch of saints coming out of their graves after being dead for ages and walking into town and having a chat with the locals is not something you can downplay as unimportant.
ProdiglArchitect:

You are not a writer of the gospel, and really have no business faulting them for their chosen focuses.

I’m quite entitled to think about them critically. You’re entitled to exercising this option as well if you choose.
ProdiglArchitect:

Prior to Jesus, everyone went to Hades. Some went to Hell as we understand it, and some went to Abraham’s Bosom. Those who were innocently ignorant of God were likely judged based on how they lived their lives.

So before Jesus came, people could escape Hell just by living a good life and being a good person? Makes you wonder why Jesus’ suffering was necessary at all if you could just be good and avoid Hell.

And second, what is the point of the final judgement if everyone’s been judged by God already when they died? After all, it’s not possible he could have made a mistake.

 

[vicwestlad]

Della:

It has nothing to do with “my thinking,” so let’s get that out of the way. Moses and Elijah were delivered from Sheol/Abraham’s bosom when Jesus entered it to free all the souls there. This took place outside of time and space. What is so hard to understand about that?

Let’s see, Moses and Elijah went to Hades, a dark place of bonds when they died, which was thousands of years ago. At the same time they went there, they were freed by Jesus because he had died on the cross and suffered. But he hadn’t lived yet and hadn’t suffered yet…but he had. Moses and Elijah were conscious in Hades in relative bliss compared to those in the bad part of Hades, but they were never there. They came out of Hades for a brief time to chat with Jesus but went back there but they were never there. Then, a little later, they were by Jesus but they were never actually there.

Yeah, why am I confused? Perhaps you could explain this a little more substantively than just rhetorically asking why someone would find it confusing?

Della:

And were no doubt witnesses to the people of their time that Jesus is the Messiah. Again, I emphasis the word “witness” not prove producers. No doubt a good many people came to believe because of their lives.

Oh they could be powerful witness but if they were not “prove producers” no need to mention these Jewish heroes who all crawled out of their graves simultaneously and lived among the normal people for years? The people fed by fishes and loafs, and the people who drank the water turned into wine were also not “prove producers” so no need to mention these miracles either? Sorry but your reasoning doesn’t appear consistent.

Della:

When I get to heaven I’ll ask them. What does it matter to you or me?

I’m asking you to speculate. At some point they would have had to earn a living or perhaps they just did speaking engagements for food. Do you think they got married, had kids? On the surface this seems absurd. That’s why I ask, do you really believe this? Since you do, the question stands. What do you think these freshly risen corpses were doing for decades after they all came back to life?

Della:

We don’t have any evidence that the people you mention were among those raised from the dead.

But, Della, if these Jewish “saints” were not the likes of Joshua, Abraham, etc, then who? Who else could it be but them?

And, more importantly, why do you object to it being the likes of Noah, Adam and Eve, etc? Why is it a more credible story if it was lesser Jewish known saints that were resurrected? You may want to seriously consider this.

Della:

Even so, St. Paul addressed this issue when he wrote that they had creation to tell them there is a God and that they owed him their worship. If they gave him worship, as they understood him, he would accept it.

So if people understood God to be a sun god, this would be ok as long as they understood him in their way? Nature worship would also qualify since it embodies the awe of creation. I’m wondering what the boundaries of acceptance are here.

Della:

You really need to read the Catechism to see the mind of the Church here.

I was raised Catholic and studied it as a teenager.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Oh come on now, Prodigl. It’s not that I personally “perceive” it as important. A bunch of saints coming out of their graves after being dead for ages and walking into town and having a chat with the locals is not something you can downplay as unimportant.

How would it be unimportant? These people were known and honored, according to the (extra-Biblical) early writings of the Church, and lived long lives, into the reign of the Emperor Hadrian.

The early Church fathers discussed this. We have no idea how many years these people had been dead. From what was written, these appear to have been physical resurrections, like Lazarus, (not “ghosts” or “spirits”) and many of them lived many years before passing away (again).

Papias, the Bishop of Hieropolis and an early Father of the Church, wrote a book (“Exposition of the Logia of the Lord”) that, sad to say, exists only in fragments and in references to his works in other, later authors. That’s really, really unfortunate, as Papias’s book would be one of our best sources on the origin of the Gospels. He was personally acquainted with the daughters of Philip (mentioned in Acts 21:8-9), from whom he gained most of his information about the events and writing of the Gospels. We’re not even sure exactly when Papias’s book was written, but some have suggested c. 130 A.D. Papias quoted 1 Peter and 1 John, and was familiar with the Book of Revelation, so the dating for this seems reasonable.

Papias collected the orthodox oral traditions (or as we would say, the Deposit of Faith) from those who had been around Jesus. He described his research technique thus:

I will not hesitate to add also for you to my interpretations what I formerly learned with care from the Presbyters and have carefully stored in memory, giving assurance of its truth. For I did not take pleasure as the many do in those who speak much, but in those who teach what is true, nor in those who relate foreign precepts, but in those who relate the precepts which were given by the Lord to the faith and came down from the Truth itself. And also if any follower of the Presbyters happened to come, I would inquire for the sayings of the Presbyters, what Andrew said, or what Peter said, or what Philip or what Thomas or James or what John or Matthew or any other of the Lord’s disciples, and for the things which other of the Lord’s disciples, and for the things which Aristion and the Presbyter John, the disciples of the Lord, were saying. For I considered that I should not get so much advantage from matter in books as from the voice which yet lives and remains.

Irenaeus, later in the 2nd century, wrote that Papius was “a hearer of John, and companion of Polycarp, a man of old time.” (Adversus Haereses V 33.4), so he seems to have been a good source.

The early 5th century writer Philip of Side, who apparently did have a copy of Papias’s book, wrote in The History of the Church according to Philip of Side, Codex Baroccianus 142 (Lightfoot-Holmes 5) that Papius wrote that those who were raised from the dead by Jesus survived to the reign of the Emperor Hadrian (circa 117-138 A.D.):

“Concerning those resurrected by Christ from the dead, that they lived until Hadrian.” ( και Παπιας δε περι την χιλιονταετηριδα σφαλλεται, εξ ου και ο Ειρηναιος.)

textexcavation.com/papias.html#fragment5

Eusebius also attributes a similar statement to Quadratus of Athens, another second-century author. This could be a corroborative statement, or Philip of Side may have confused Papias’s writing with that if Quadratus.

Eusebius wrote in his Ecclesiastical History, Book IV, chapter 3:

1. After Trajan had reigned for nineteen and a half years Ælius Adrian became his successor in the empire. To him Quadratus addressed a discourse containing an apology for our religion, because certain wicked men had attempted to trouble the Christians. The work is still in the hands of a great many of the brethren, as also in our own, and furnishes clear proofs of the man’s understanding and of his apostolic orthodoxy. 2. He himself reveals the early date at which he lived in the following words: But the works of our Saviour were always present, for they were genuine:— those that were healed, and those that were raised from the dead, who were seen not only when they were healed and when they were raised, but were also always present; and not merely while the Saviour was on earth, but also after his death, they were alive for quite a while, so that some of them lived even to our day. Such then was Quadratus.

newadvent.org/fathers/250104.htm

It’s not fully clear if Quadratus and/or Papius referred solely to those three people who are named in the Gospels that Jesus raised from the dead, pre-crucifixion (Lazarus, the 12-year old girl who died in bed, and the only son of the widow of Nain), or additionally to those who were raised from the dead after his crucifixion. So we have at least one, possibly two extra-Biblical sources suggesting that these may have been post-crucifixion appearances that were physical resurrections, not metaphorical or merely spiritual, “ghost-like” appearances, but quite long-lasting ones) on the nature of Lazarus.

 

[ahs]

In Hades, they have consciousness, which is obvious from the fact that they either suffer or relative bliss. They can communicate as per Luke 16. They have been conscious from the time they died until the time Jesus descended to Hell for three days.
The Catechism says the following:

If they had been held captive “in bonds” and “lived” in darkness and then were subsequently freed, I don’t see you can act like some form of conscious time could not have been involved. Since they “lived” “in bonds” until freed at the time of Jesus death, then I’m asking what they were doing during this time.

You are assuming that their form of consciousness is identical to ours. I don’t assume that. The reason I don’t assume that is because we live a “material”, per se, life. We have bodies that require “space” and which exist in a linear time line. I don’t believe my soul, which is “spirit”, requires this “space” and “time” as I experience it here. You assume that it does.

Didn’t say it was “impossible”. But I would suggest it’s rather strange to think of Moses and Elijah in Hades with Adam and Eve “in bonds” and then let out for a brief period and sent back down to serve out their “captivity” down in Hades.

I don’t think it’s strange at all, and I also don’t think it is a matter of getting out for a bit and then going back in to this Hades. I don’t assume that they are in “time” and “space” equal to what I know here and now. In other words, I accept the fact that there may be things outside of my material human existence which I simply don’t know or understand yet. Do you not believe that there may be things you don’t know or understand yet? Or do you believe you already know all there is to know?

Two things. You should read The Myth of Christian Persecution by Candida Moss to see how exaggerated claims of martyrdom are.

But, more importantly, this “evidence” is easily refuted. If dying and facing torture for one’s faith proved its veracity, then the Muslim faith, the Bahai faith, and others would be true. Since they cannot all be, the logic here does not work.

I’ve not found any credible evidence that there is an exaggeration of martyrs for Christianity in the first generation of believers, up to modern times.

No, it’s not refuted. The Muslims don’t seem to have any actual witnesses who have been martyred. Christ led by example, and his closest followers and those who actually witnessed the events recorded in the Gospels gave up their lives believing in the Resurrection. Muhammad had how many first-hand witnesses die for him? Sure, subsequent generations die for Islam in an act of “witnessing”. But they aren’t being hunted down and killed these days, they are committing murder-suicides. It’s the Christians who are being hunted down and killed as true martyrs. Your example makes a false correlation…it’s faulty logic.

 

[Gorgias]

So Moses and Elijah were in Hades but they came out for a little while to chat with Jesus on the mountain at the transfiguration? Just want to be clear on your thinking here.

Be careful – when your snark reveals the fact that this isn’t about ‘understanding’, but rather, about ‘ridiculing’, it’s a lot more difficult to take you seriously. (Trust me – I’ve been there; I know…)

Here’s the thing: In the days before the concept of ‘eternal bliss’ or ‘eternal punishment’ was revealed by God, people understood death to be the end – period. Therefore, the notion of the ‘abode of the dead’ – Hades, or Sheol, or whatever – was used to describe ‘where’ the souls of people went once they’d died. That’s already a problematic assertion: we all know where the corpse is, but what about the notion of ‘whereness’ for a soul? Nevertheless, the notion of an abode of the dead is a helpful one in coming to terms with an understanding of human existence following physical death.

Later, the Israelites started to become aware that there wasn’t just an undifferentiated final destination, but rather, there was a distinction between eternal bliss and eternal punishment. From a historical perspective, the notion of the ‘bosom of Abraham’ developed at this point. In this context, the notion wasn’t that people were in ‘heaven’ (or, more to the point, eternally in the presence of God), but rather, that there was an eternal resting place that was a place of comfort and happiness. However, as language use tends to go, the old categories – Hades / Sheol – continued to be used when making an undifferentiated description of post-death reality.

Now, to your snark: no, it doesn’t stretch the imagination to think of a ‘good part of Hades’ and a ‘bad part of Hades’. In fact, all you’re doing in this case is being anachronistic, using a more archaic term in order to make fun of a later eschatological understanding. And, no, it doesn’t stretch the imagination to presume that those in the ‘bosom of Abraham’ might appear in the Transfiguration: after all, their appearance was an instance of an eternal reality being witnessed in our space/time. Does that mean that Moses and Elijah were given a free afternoon to ‘pop off to earth’? That’s just silly; do you really want a serious answer to an attempt at ridicule? Again, your assertion that saying that Moses and Elijah were ‘in bonds’ means that they were in eternal punishment is a crass misunderstanding. Rather, it means that they – who were just, and were awaiting Christ’s salvific sacrifice – were in bondage only inasmuch as they weren’t yet in heaven. It doesn’t imply that they were in hell.

And, let’s talk about the notion of time. We seem to conflating the issues of ‘consciousness’ and ‘space/time’ in this thread; the two are not equivalent. In our physical bodies, our consciousness is intimately intertwined with our temporal/spatial existence and experience. However, if we exist – as souls – without spatial extension, how can we understand temporal extension in that context? Does that mean, then, that we have no consciousness? I would think not. (Rather, it might be akin to the feeling of “being in the zone” – we’re so intensely in the moment, that we do not notice the passage of time.) I think that the Catholics who suggest that there’s instantaneous realization (whoops! I’m in the Bosom of Abraham! Whoops! I’m immediately in Heaven!) aren’t quite on the right track, either… but that doesn’t give you carte blanche to presume that arguments against temporal extension are therefore arguments against consciousness!

Finally, with respect to the “corpses walking around Jerusalem” thing: I would assert that your Scriptural exegesis is faulty. One interpretation of Matthew’s statements is that there were dead people walking around Jerusalem on Good Friday. However, that’s a rather naive reading and requires us to make a whole boatload of assumptions that aren’t really forced upon us by the text. After all, the narrative of the crucifixion is put on hold in verse 53 – we move from the events of Good Friday to events “after his resurrection”! And then, in verse 54, we’re back at the foot of the cross! So, I ask you: what does it mean that “bodies… were raised” in the context of a moment when “the earth quaked” and “rocks were split”? What is “the holy city”? (Hint: is it necessarily Jerusalem, or could it be the heavenly city?) You see, to buy into your skepticism, we have to accept your interpretation of Matthew 27:51-53. I don’t; therefore, your presumptions have no real argumentative force.

But my post back to you included the question about good people who died in other parts of the world, like China and South America, who had never heard of Jesus. Did they go to Hades when they died too?

Of course: Hades was the place where all the dead souls ended up – when there was the notion of undifferentiated eternity. Later, Christians believed that good people, born before the Incarnation, were able to attain to heaven. I’m presuming that’s where you’re going with this. Don’t worry… we’ve already got it figured out…

 

[mikekle]

I cant recall where I heard this, nor the actual verse, but I do remember the inside of the ‘whale’, Jonah was in, was described as being made of metal, or bronze, anyone know what Im referring to?

If I am thinking of the same thing, I believe this was an argument that Jonah was actually inside a kind of craft or ship, and not a living whale, how else could a whale have insides made of metal or bronze?

 

[Gorgias]

You’ve been watching too much ‘Ancient Aliens.’ As memory serves, they made this claim about the whale and bronze, and then used the claim to support the argument that Jonah traveled in a submarine.

Unfortunately, they’re way off base, and as usual, they’re jumping to conclusions. The reference to the whale comes not from Jonah but from Job, who is describing great creatures made by God in Job chapter 40. There’s a beast called ‘Behemoth’, who’s described more like a land animal than a sea animal, and he’s the one that has bones ‘like tubes of bronze.’ (Note that he’s not even saying that they’re bronze, but that they’re like bronze.) Take a look at the rest of the description – feeding on grass, strength in his loins, power in his belly, the muscles in his thighs like cables, limbs like iron rods. Well, it’s pretty clear that Job is talking about something more like a hippo than like a whale!

Anyway, once you realize that the reference isn’t talking about a whale – let alone Jonah’s whale! – you realize that the whole ball of wax is a pretty poor example of reading Scripture in context…!

 

[ProdglArchitect]

But according to Catholic doctrine, those spirits in Hell, like Adam and Eve, were held captive in bonds even though they were good people who would be released by Jesus after his suffering and death. It’s rather strange to say they were kind of let out for a little while so they could have a chat with Jesus.

They don’t seem at all startled to be suddenly back on earth after thousands of years in darkness and bondage. It’s all a little farfetched Pordigl. I understand this involves faith. That’s why the thread asks if you really believe it.

It is not that they were “in bonds,” they were there because the gates of Heaven hadn’t been opened yet. I really don’t understand why you find it difficult to believe that God would have sent them to Earth to serve his purposes. They were not outside of the reach of God, as evidenced by the fact that they were blissful, even in their state of not having the beatific vision. If they were within reach of God, then they had the capacity and the desire to do His will.

also… why would they be startled? It’s not like they wouldn’t have had a warning…

Oh come on now, Prodigl. It’s not that I personally “perceive” it as important. A bunch of saints coming out of their graves after being dead for ages and walking into town and having a chat with the locals is not something you can downplay as unimportant.

They weren’t walking around town, they were on the mountaintop, talking with Christ. Even if others had arisen from their graves, how would people have known it was them? There were, to my knowledge, very few paintings / engraving made of the OT Prophets, so there was very little way to corroborate that they were who they said they were. Since they were coming from God, they would likely have been given perfected physical forms, meaning that they wouldn’t have appeared as decrepit, decaying corpses, but rather of perfect specimens of physical and spiritual health. While uncommon, their appearance would not have been particularly noteworthy to anyone who rejected that they were who they said they were. Since most historians of the time wouldn’t have accepted the notion of a resurrection, they likely dismissed them as crazy people, much in the same way we would dismiss anyone in our day and age who claims to be King David, Moses, or pretty much any other long-dead historical figure. It’s really not a stretch to conclude that they weren’t talked about simply because people thought they were crazy.

I’m quite entitled to think about them critically. You’re entitled to exercising this option as well if you choose.

I do exercise that option, I was simply stating that you lack the requisite knowledge to judge their motives and decision beyond anything other than a cursory personal judgment based on your own opinions. I also lack that knowledge, as does everyone on Earth who isn’t an Author of one of the Gospel.

So before Jesus came, people could escape Hell just by living a good life and being a good person? Makes you wonder why Jesus’ suffering was necessary at all if you could just be good and avoid Hell.

It was more than living a “Good life.” Natural law is inscribed in the hearts of all people, and everyone can come to know it through honest reflection and discernment. We cannot claim to know anyone’s particular judgment, but it is my personal supposition that people who lived by the Natural Law, being God’s laws as they had been revealed and inscribed into the souls of all men, would have received a favorable particular judgment. Those who did not (who gave in to greed, lust, violence, etc.) would have received an unfavorable judgment. Jesus came to impart the fullness of the Truth so that everyone would have a greater chance of knowing and living it. His coming improved the odds of everyone, because it gave us a more complete understanding of what it took. Greater knowledge can only improve our chances of choosing correctly.

And second, what is the point of the final judgement if everyone’s been judged by God already when they died? After all, it’s not possible he could have made a mistake.

The final judgement does not change anyone outcome. It is when both your sins and good deeds will be laid bare before humanity. I’m not super well versed in it, but my understanding is that it will be the final demonstration of God’s justice, showing all why the damned were damned and why the saved were saved; and making us once and for all fully aware of how our choices affected those around us (I don’t think that’ll happen at the particular judgment, but I’m not positive…)

 

[Usagi]

Vicwestlad, I’m not understanding the basis of your issue here. Could you perhaps state your objections in a declarative way instead of continuing to ask suggestive questions?

Catholic teaching is that no one could go to Heaven (that is, the direct presence of God) before Jesus died and rose again. Those who trusted in God in earlier times, and those who were ignorant of the true God but accepted what grace they were given by pursuing what they understood of the Good, are generally understood to have been admitted after death to a place or state variously called “'hades,” “the bosom of Abraham,” or “the limbo of the fathers.”

As Jesus noted in the parable of Lazarus, this would have been a place of comfort compared to our own existence, perhaps the “next best thing” to Heaven. But it could also be described as a place of “darkness and bondage” because it was not truly Heaven, the direct experience of God for which all souls long.

I’d prefer to avoid, for the most part, the rather convoluted discussion of how the souls in that state would have experienced time. You are right that the notion of waiting for something better implies some kind of passage of time, but that does not necessarily mean those souls experienced every single day of centuries or millennia as we would. The truth is that we simply don’t know.

Your primary incredulity seems to involve how the souls in waiting occupied themselves during whatever passage of time they experienced. Once again, aside from “waiting” and “being comforted,” we have not been told. It seems they were able to interact with other deceased folk, presumably including relatives they’d missed and honored ancestors like Abraham.

Elijah and possibly Moses (along with the little-mentioned Enoch) may be a special case. Enoch and Elijah were taken to the afterlife bodily, apparently without dying in the usual sense. Moses died normally, but God took custody of his body and there are hints (the New Testament book of Jude relates a story from a non-canonical work entitled The Assumption of Moses) that his body and soul also were reunited “early,” much as Catholics believe later happened to Jesus’ mother Mary. Whether those guys also went to hades/limbo or whether an exception was made and they were admitted straight to Heaven, we do not know. In either case, they were notably different from every other departed soul, which may be part of the reason why they and not, say, Abraham and Isaiah, appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration.

As for the “bodies of the saints” that rose up and walked after Jesus’ crucifixion, we’re told nothing of who they were or how long they remained alive. I would be inclined to think they were local holy people of recent years rather than Old Testament celebrities, precisely because their raising was given only a passing mention. If Father Abraham lived a second life in the first century A.D., that would be worthy of considerable detail. It does amuse me to think of Elijah walking bodily around Jerusalem and slipping into some surprised family’s Passover Seder to take “his” place at the table, though!

While the earlier fellow was an ex-Christian implying that all of Christianity is equally or more ridiculous and I disagree with that, I must join him in asking why this, of all things, is something you seem to find especially unbelievable.

Usagi

 

[vicwestlad]

Arizona Mike:

How would it be unimportant?

I said just the opposite.
Arizona Mike:

These people were known and honored, according to the (extra-Biblical) early writings of the Church, and lived long lives, into the reign of the Emperor Hadrian.

Thank you for making this point. So these Jewish heroes of the past all coming back to life at the point of Jesus’ death and still alive to talk about what it was like being dead for hundreds or thousands of years would have made extremely powerful evidence for Jesus’ divinity. Yet they are not mentioned anywhere outside of one solitary gospel, not in Acts when Peter and Paul were trying to convince their audience that resurrection was possible, not in any of Paul’s letters. Silence. It’s more than a little suspect if you’re thinking critically.
Arizona Mike:

Concerning those resurrected by Christ from the dead, that they lived until Hadrian."

Of course, this more likely refers to Lazarus, and the other two raised by Jesus. The saints who came back at the point of Jesus death wouldn’t have been raised by Jesus since Jesus had just died.
Arizona Mike:

those that were healed, and those that were raised from the dead, who were seen not only when they were healed and when they were raised, but were also always present; and not merely while the Saviour was on earth, but also after his death, they were alive for quite a while, so that some of them lived even to our day. Such then was Quadratus.

Yep, I’m familiar with that quote and it, once again, demonstrates the problem of Paul and Peter trying to convince their audience that resurrections were possible and yet never referred to these Jewish heroes who all came back to life and lived on for ages.

Tell me, Mike, do you think these once long dead saints got jobs, got married, had kids?

 

[vicwestlad]

ahs:

You are assuming that their form of consciousness is identical to ours. I don’t assume that. The reason I don’t assume that is because we live a “material”, per se, life. We have bodies that require “space” and which exist in a linear time line. I don’t believe my soul, which is “spirit”, requires this “space” and “time” as I experience it here. You assume that it does.

Nope. Doesn’t have to be exactly the same.

And you just keep asserting the same thing without addressing the points I make or explaining what you could be referring to. Look at what I wrote:

me:

In Hades, they have consciousness, which is obvious from the fact that they either suffer or relative bliss. They can communicate as per Luke 16. They have been conscious from the time they died until the time Jesus descended to Hell for three days.
The Catechism says the following:

If they had been held captive “in bonds” and “lived” in darkness and then were subsequently freed, I don’t see you can act like some form of conscious time could not have been involved. Since they “lived” “in bonds” until freed at the time of Jesus death, then I’m asking what they were doing during this time.

I’ll add this quote:

“Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him” (paragraph 635).

They were conscious since death till Jesus freed them from where they had been held captive. As per Luke 16 they could interact and communicate as well as suffer. If Adam and Eve were held captive, this means it involves time. And if people were suffering on an on-going basis this involves time. I don’t see how you can argue otherwise, and in fact you actually haven’t. I haven’t heard an actual argument from you yet, despite all the points I keep bringing up. Repeating assertions isn’t making an argument.

ahs:

I don’t assume that they are in “time” and “space” equal to what I know here and now. In other words, I accept the fact that there may be things outside of my material human existence which I simply don’t know or understand yet.

Here’s something you may not have realized. Church fathers believed Hell was below the earth and Heaven was above. That’s why Jesus descended into Hell before rising to heaven. Here are some quotes from church fathers:

From Tertullian

“By ourselves the lower regions (of Hades) are not supposed to be a bare cavity, nor some subterranean sewer of the world, but a vast deep space in the interior of the earth, and a concealed recess in its very bowels; inasmuch as we read that Christ in His death spent three days in the heart of the earth, Matthew 12:40 that is, in the secret inner recess which is hidden in the earth, and enclosed by the earth, and superimposed on the abysmal depths which lie still lower down” (chapter 55).

From Hippolytus of Rome

“Hades is a place in the created system, rude, a locality beneath the earth, in which the light of the world does not shine; and as the sun does not shine in this locality, there must necessarily be perpetual darkness there.” - Against Plato, On the Cause of the Universe

From St. Jerome

“by the heart of the sea hell is signified for which we read in the gospel, the heart of the earth, for, as the heart of an animal is in the midst thereof so hell is supposed to be in the middle of the earth.” - qtd. In History of the Apostles Creed, by Lord Peter King, John Woods Publishing, first American edition, 1804, p.193

I could add more

In his supplement to Summa Theologica entitled, “Whether the fire of hell is beneath the earth?” (Question 97, Article 7) Aquinas noted a rather morbid objection which claimed the interior of the earth would not be able to contain the large number of people destined for hell. Aquinas countered that God has sufficient power to create a “hollow” large enough “within the bowels of the earth."

So it’s not just in the universe, it’s below or in the heart of the earth. That’s why Jesus said he would be three days and three nights “in the heart of the earth”. So your idea of this being on some other dimension without time doesn’t comport with tradition.

ahs:

I’ve not found any credible evidence that there is an exaggeration of martyrs for Christianity in the first generation of believers, up to modern times.

That’s because you haven’t read her book, as I’ve suggested. Candida Moss is a believer and wrote the book, as she says, to combat those who so commonly exaggerate Christian martyrdom as you did above.

ahs:

No, it’s not refuted. The Muslims don’t seem to have any actual witnesses who have been martyred. Christ led by example, and his closest followers and those who actually witnessed the events recorded in the Gospels gave up their lives believing in the Resurrection. Muhammad had how many first-hand witnesses die for him? Sure, subsequent generations die for Islam in an act of “witnessing”. But they aren’t being hunted down and killed these days, they are committing murder-suicides. It’s the Christians who are being hunted down and killed as true martyrs. Your example makes a false correlation…it’s faulty logic.

I’ll make it clear where your logic is lacking. Here’s your argument in syllogistic form.

Premise 1: If a person believed they witnessed something and was willing to die for that belief, that belief has to be true.

Premise 2: People who claim to have witnessed Jesus alive after his death were willing to die for this belief.

Conclusion: Jesus rose from the dead.

Let me ask you this. Is there not one single other person in history that claimed to have witnessed an event and was willing to die for this belief other than Christian martyrs?

I’ll let you think about that.

 

[vicwestlad]

Georgias:

In this context, the notion wasn’t that people were in ‘heaven’ (or, more to the point, eternally in the presence of God), but rather, that there was an eternal resting place that was a place of comfort and happiness.

First of all, I’m not sure what “rest” could mean in this context. Not sure you could make sense of that. Second, it wasn’t just a place of comfort and happiness. There was also a part where people were suffering.
Georgias:

And, no, it doesn’t stretch the imagination to presume that those in the ‘bosom of Abraham’ might appear in the Transfiguration

Well specifically Moses and Elijah. It may not stretch your imagination but then anyone can rationalize anything they want to.

So, Moses and Elijah were “resting” in Hades. Then suddenly they’re back on the earth on a mountain talking with Jesus as if they know him well. Then, apparently, after a talk (hope that’s not offensive) they are put back into this shawdowy realm where they’re held “in bonds” like Adam and Eve for a few more days till Jesus takes them out again. If would be fascinating to know what they talked about. Hmmm….

Jesus: “So how’s it going in Hades?”
Moses: “Well it’s a bit dark and shadowy but at least I’m comfortable. When are you coming to get us again?”
Jesus: “Just a few more days. I have to be tortured and killed first, then I’ll come down and get you”

You may think the above is “snarky” sarcasm but given the scenario of their brief excursion from the dark underworld, I think anything would be problematic. Just making a point. Don’t mean to offend.
Georgias:

Again, your assertion that saying that Moses and Elijah were ‘in bonds’ means that they were in eternal punishment is a crass misunderstanding.

No you should learn to read better. I didn’t say they were in punishment. They were in the good part of Hades. Seriously, you should at least try to read what your interlocutor has said instead of getting it completely wrong and backwards.
Georgias:

And, let’s talk about the notion of time. We seem to conflating the issues of ‘consciousness’ and ‘space/time’ in this thread; the two are not equivalent. In our physical bodies, our consciousness is intimately intertwined with our temporal/spatial existence and experience.

How can someone suffer if they don’t experience time? How can someone be thrown into bondage in tartarus, as the Bible says, until judgment, if there’s no time?
Georgias:

Finally, with respect to the “corpses walking around Jerusalem” thing: I would assert that your Scriptural exegesis is faulty.

Ok, sure, what’s your exegisis? Here’s Matthew’s quote:

The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.” (Matthew 27: 51-53)

Tell me what you think happened?