Do you believe with utmost certainty that unbaptized babies go to Heaven?

[PRmerger]

Ambrose+Augustine=plural.

Your turn.

Ah. I see, now. Anyone else besides these 2?

I will address soon…

 

[CommonWeal]

dronald,

I have a couple questions for you. First, what exactly were you trying to accomplish or learn by starting this thread? Second, you self-identify as “Evangelical.” What do you mean by that? Does that mean non denominational? Just trying to figure out where you’re coming from.

 

[PRmerger]

Ah. I see, now. Anyone else besides these 2?

I will address soon…

Actually, I need go no further.

It’s a kind of weird assertion that is being made by dronald that Sts. Augustine and Ambrose would be creating a god in one’s own image for proclaiming that the unbaptized cannot be “vivified in Christ”.

That’s kind of the OPPOSITE of creating a god in one’s own image, right?

I mean, if I were going to make up some rules, I certainly wouldn’t make it HARDER to get to heaven.

What dronald is asserting is kind of like saying: my teenagers made up their own rules and they say that they want to be grounded for a month for not unloading the dishwasher.

Rather, what would be more logical would be: my teenagers made up their own rules and they said that they have to go on a cruise because they didn’t unload the dishwasher.

 

[steido01]

Ah. I see, now. Anyone else besides these 2?

I will address soon…

While I think you’re ultimately right and dronald is misreading the fathers here… if he only finds those two, they’re a heckuva two to find. Let’s not fall into a goofy numbers game, let’s look at the text and its context:

Whence they, who are not liberated through grace, either because they are not yet able to hear, or because they are unwilling to obey; or again because they did not receive, at the time when they were unable on account of youth to hear, that bath of regeneration, which they might have received and through which they might have been saved, are indeed justly condemned; because they are not without sin, either that which they have derived from their birth, or that which they have added from their own misconduct. ‘For all have sinned’-whether in Adam or in themselves-‘and come short of the glory of God.’

Here Augustine is correcting the errors of Vincentius Victor. This particular passage is simply explaining how Original Sin (which VV effectively denied) absolutely corrupts the human being from the very moment of conception. He even, rightly, quotes from Romans. But dronald is reading more than what Augustine is writing. All Augustine has noted is that however God decides to judge, He does so justly. Frankly, we all deserve eternal punishment. We admit as much every time we confess our sins in the confessional or at Mass. But take care; Augustine is not saying that God would not or could not have mercy on the unborn in a similar way that He sent His Son for us. He is only insisting on the Truth: that only one means of redemption has been revealed to humankind, and that means begins with one baptism for the remission of sins. Can we decisively state that infants go to Heaven? No. Can we decisively state that infants go to Hell? No. Can we state that we have a just, yet loving and merciful, God who desires the redemption of His Creation? With great trust in His promises, we do.

 

[PRmerger]

While I think you’re ultimately right and dronald is misreading the fathers here… if he only finds those two, they’re a heckuva two to find. Let’s not fall into a goofy numbers game, let’s look at the text and its context:

Yep.

 

[Nick44]

The Baha’i Writings provide a clear answer to the question.

Question.—What is the condition of children who die before attaining the age of discretion or before the appointed time of birth?

Answer.—These infants are under the shadow of the favor of God; and as they have not committed any sin and are not soiled with the impurities of the world of nature, they are the centers of the manifestation of bounty, and the Eye of Compassion will be turned upon them.

Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p 240

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Frankly, we all deserve eternal punishment.

Ok, let’s stop here for a second and go deep into the woods

So at the moment of conception we deserve eternal punishment? or At the moment we are born?

I don’t remember asking to be here, on earth, as a human being . So someone put me here. Yeah, yeah, I know it was my mom and dad . But, but — my spirit? Who else can create the life breath but God?

IOW - Are we declared guilty at the very moment of conception?

 

[dmar198]

Ok, let’s stop here for a second and go deep into the woods

So at the moment of conception we deserve eternal punishment? or At the moment we are born?

I don’t remember asking to be here, on earth, as a human being . So someone put me here. Yeah, yeah, I know it was my mom and dad . But, but — my spirit? Who else can create the life breath but God?

IOW - Are we declared guilty at the very moment of conception?

Not guilty, just unfit for heaven. We are by nature children of wrath. We get our nature at conception. Therefore, from conception, we are children of wrath. Do you see anything wrong with that argument? If not, what do you think “wrath” means in Ephesians 2:3? Because I think there is evidence that it means we deserve divine punishment.

 

[meltzerboy]

Not guilty, just unfit for heaven. We are by nature children of wrath. We get our nature at conception. Therefore, from conception, we are children of wrath. Do you see anything wrong with that argument? If not, what do you think “wrath” means in Ephesians 2:3? Because I think there is evidence that it means we deserve divine punishment.

I guess it just seems odd (to me, as a Jew) to say that we deserve divine punishment just as our human nature, body and spirit, is being created by G-d, through our parents, in His image and likeness.

 

[rinnie]

I guess it just seems odd (to me, as a Jew) to say that we deserve divine punishment just as our human nature, body and spirit, is being created by G-d, through our parents, in His image and likeness.

Well look at the Blessed Mother she passed the test, as many people in the bible. We don’t deserve punishment because our human nature, body and spirit is created by God, we deserve punishment because we choose to sin and put our evil thoughts and deeds over the human nature body and spirit.

If you look at a special needs child, that are perfect in every way. Not as the world sees them, but as God sees them. They do not have the mind of the sinful human nature, they only know innocence and Love as they were created.

But there are also Humans who have choose to keep in the mind of God, and did so. Mary was saved from the stain of Original Sin by God, but that did not mean she could not use free will to sin, only she choose to use free will and not sin.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Not guilty, just unfit for heaven. We are by nature children of wrath. We get our nature at conception. Therefore, from conception, we are children of wrath. Do you see anything wrong with that argument? If not, what do you think “wrath” means in Ephesians 2:3? Because I think there is evidence that it means we deserve divine punishment.

So having committed no sin at all, we still deserve eternal punishment? Just because our parents carried the command to be fruitful and multiply?

You see the problem here?

God commands us to multiply.

Only for our fruit to deserve eternal punishment without being culpable of sin yet. (Ez 18:20 comes to mind)

The last thing I had in my mind when my son was born was that he deserved eternal punishment.

 

[steido01]

Ok, let’s stop here for a second and go deep into the woods

So at the moment of conception we deserve eternal punishment? or At the moment we are born?

I don’t remember asking to be here, on earth, as a human being . So someone put me here. Yeah, yeah, I know it was my mom and dad . But, but — my spirit? Who else can create the life breath but God?

IOW - Are we declared guilty at the very moment of conception?

Well, you know the Lutheran (and Reformed) response here is Total Depravity, and if Paul left any doubt in Romans, Psalm 51 is rather clear:

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

But the issue of “what happens to u baptized infants?” can be discussed without looking into particular views of human nature by simply recalling that God is merciful and loving.

 

[steido01]

So having committed no sin at all, we still deserve eternal punishment? Just because our parents carried the command to be fruitful and multiply?

You see the problem here?

God commands us to multiply.

Only for our fruit to deserve eternal punishment without being culpable of sin yet. (Ez 18:20 comes to mind)

The last thing I had in my mind when my son was born was that he deserved eternal punishment.

That command, while still in effect, was given prior to the Fall. Through Adam, we’re all stained. If we are human from conception, then we also hold a sinful nature from that point.

 

[PRmerger]

So having committed no sin at all, we still deserve eternal punishment?

Yep. Not a one of us “deserves” heaven.

(Here, the universe of discourse is: those of us left here on earth at this moment)

What we do “deserve”…is hell.

That’s why Christ came, Isaiah.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

That command, while still in effect, was given prior to the Fall. Through Adam, we’re all stained. If we are human from conception, then we also hold a sinful nature from that point.

Genesis 9, the command is again given to Noah and all his descendants=us.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Yep. Not a one of us “deserves” heaven.

(Here, the universe of discourse is: those of us left here on earth at this moment)

What we do “deserve”…is hell.

That’s why Christ came, Isaiah.

I didn’t say we deserve heaven, PR. The subject is deserving hell at the moment of conception and not committing personal sin.

So all human souls at the moment of conception are guilty of the sin of Adam.

Is that correct?

If not, what is the correct proposal?

 

[PRmerger]

I didn’t say we deserve heaven, PR. The subject is deserving hell at the moment of conception and not committing personal sin.

So all human souls at the moment of conception are guilty of the sin of Adam.

Is that correct?

NO.

We do not inherit the guilt of Adam. What we inherited was the loss of sanctifying grace.

And without it, we cannot enter heaven.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I guess it just seems odd (to me, as a Jew) to say that we deserve divine punishment just as our human nature, body and spirit, is being created by G-d, through our parents, in His image and likeness.

Lew-

I’m going to go out on a limb with this analogy…it may snap behind me.

In Germany during the 1930’s and 1940’s, certain laws were enacted that discriminated against anyone who was Jewish. It might not have seemed fair that you could not own property or vote or whatever simply because of who your forefathers were, but that’s the way it was. You were Jewish by birth, and you could not enter certain establishments, etc.

Well…we have a fallen nature by virtue of who our original parents were and what they did. We are not permitted to enter heaven by virtue of the fact that we are of a certain fallen race. Obviously, God is not a Nazi, and his laws are just. But we are prevented from entering His presence unless the sin which we inherit from Adam and Eve is washed away through baptism into Christ.

If I have this wrong, I encourage other Catholics to correct me.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Unless I have misunderstood their theology, it appears to me that the Orthodox believe that EVERYONE is immaculately conceived. Sort of.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

NO.

We do not inherit the guilt of Adam. What we inherited was the loss of sanctifying grace.

And without it, we cannot enter heaven.

If we [all] inherited the loss of sanctifying grace, I can only conclude that all conceptions are hell bound until a means of sanctifying grace is installed. For without it, it is impossible to enter heaven. I mean, after all that’s why we baptize infants.

If that is the case, how come we are not [then] baptizing at the moment we learn of conception? Are we not [then] guilty of possessing a knowledge that can save a soul and install a means of sanctifying grace?

But do you see what is being said here?

God commands us to be fruitful and multiply.

and then on the other hand we say:

We don’t have sanctifying grace even though we are being obedient to a command.

How can we say God is merciful when what is being proposed is an eternity in hell with no culpability of the soul being condemned?