Do you believe you can follow God by devoting to the Catholic faith?

[Peter_J]

I also asked this question to a Christian, who I respect, and she replied with this:
We are having a problem with this one because I would never describe myself as being devoted to a particular group within Christianity, but I would always describe myself as being devoted to God and Jesus. Because I’m devoted to God and Jesus I’m willing to follow Him where He leads, and I’m assuming other Christians devoted to God would as well.
This answer implies that devotion to the Catholic faith would restrict one from following God and Jesus.

But that isn’t in what you quoted.

 

[rcwitness]

This is a very interesting question. The crux of it for me are the words “faithful” and “able.” I know many Catholics who are faithfully devoted to the Catholic faith but are not faithful to the teachings of the Catholic Church. Certainly Catholics are able to serve, worship and obey Jesus but unfortunately some do not even though they are faithfully devoted to the Catholic faith. This is also true of other Christians as well.

I’m not following your reasoning here. To be “faithfully devoted to the Catholic faith” would mean “being faithful to the Teachings of the Catholic Church”. It doesn’t mean impeccable, but believing in what the Catholic Church calls the “Deposit of Faith” and devoting oneself to persevering in that faith.

 

[rcwitness]

But that isn’t in what you quoted.

She explained a slight diference.

 

[Wannano]

I’m not following your reasoning here. To be “faithfully devoted to the Catholic faith” would mean “being faithful to the Teachings of the Catholic Church”. It doesn’t mean impeccable, but believing in what the Catholic Church calls the “Deposit of Faith” and devoting oneself to persevering in that faith.

I have experienced many Catholics over the years being very faithfully devoted to the Catholic faith and not living lives that exemplify faithfulness to the teachings of the Church. I don’t know how else to spell it out. People who are very religiously Catholic in every way (faithfully devoted?) , but live lives that do not give evidence to faithful obedience to the teachings of the Church.

 

[rcwitness]

I have experienced many Catholics over the years being very faithfully devoted to the Catholic faith and not living lives that exemplify faithfulness to the teachings of the Church. I don’t know how else to spell it out. People who are very religiously Catholic in every way (faithfully devoted?) , but live lives that do not give evidence to faithful obedience to the teachings of the Church.

That is a total contradiction. They are attempting to follow the image of the Catholic religion, but without following the Teachings it would not be truly devoted to the faith. They actually deny the faith. Which we all sometimes do, but if we chase remorse, confess, and repent, then we are reconciled.

 

[St_Francis]

I have experienced many Catholics over the years being very faithfully devoted to the Catholic faith and not living lives that exemplify faithfulness to the teachings of the Church. I don’t know how else to spell it out. People who are very religiously Catholic in every way (faithfully devoted?) , but live lives that do not give evidence to faithful obedience to the teachings of the Church.

Well, first of all, it’s a process… people are in different places in their spiritual journeys.

And secondly, yeah, people sometimes talk the talk and don’t walk the walk.

 

[Peter_J]

She explained a slight diference.

Sorry. I joined the thread late, read what you said and was trying to understand it.

 

[Peter_J]

I have experienced many Catholics over the years being very faithfully devoted to the Catholic faith and not living lives that exemplify faithfulness to the teachings of the Church. I don’t know how else to spell it out. People who are very religiously Catholic in every way (faithfully devoted?) , but live lives that do not give evidence to faithful obedience to the teachings of the Church.

Not sure if I understand you or not. It sounds a bit like Jesus’ criticisms of Pharisees, but that may not be how you mean it.

 

[rcwitness]

No relativity, just order of importance. Again, you switch around what I would normally say, and that’s fine, it’s just a difference in wording. I say we can loyally and faithfully follow God first and foremost and trust Him to guide all true seekers where they need to be, IF they listen. That’s it; there’s no hidden Catholic bashing anywhere in what I’m saying, or a support of subjectivism.

I believe you aren’t bashing Catholic faith. You are one of the CAF members I most admire!

But I’m trying to get at something deeper here. I’m asking if God would lead one person to the Catholic faith and his neighbor to a Protestant faith? I realize both can be genuine believers and believing much of the same “universal” faith.

I think there is an appeal to modern Evangelical communities because there is less Teachings to accept. This gives the impression and feel of a righteous freedom.

 

[Kliska]

I believe you aren’t bashing Catholic faith. You are one of the CAF members I most admire!

But I’m trying to get at something deeper here. I’m asking if God would lead one person to the Catholic faith and his neighbor to a Protestant faith? I realize both can be genuine believers and believing much of the same “universal” faith.

I think there is an appeal to modern Evangelical communities because there is less Teachings to accept. This gives the impression and feel of a righteous freedom.

Do I believe it’s possible? Yes, but let me put it from my perspective first. Let’s say there is a cultural protestant who is at the evangelical church “every time the doors are open.” They have no depth in the faith aspect, only in the social. Now, they attend mass with a friend and are drawn into the beauty, liturgy, the catechism, etc… and truly have a conversion of heart to follow Christ. I can say, even from this side of the Tiber, they are better off there.

You’ve no doubt heard of cultural Catholics who are like the evangelical above; no depth in the faith. What is better? For them to stay in that, or for them to have a conversion of the heart? And what if that conversion could come about if they heard the word preached by a particular baptist preacher? Yes, I fully understand that Catholics would want them to have that depth as a Catholic in a Catholic congregation. Even supposing that Catholicism is the true path, could it not be within the realm of possibility that someone could need the Spirit to take them to a place they could hear a certain message? Even if that place were in a Baptist church?

Do I believe God wants us all in the same place? Absolutely. Do I believe God can use fellow Christians to push us farther in our journey despite our fractures? Yes.

As to your last part about teachings, I would disagree, but that’s a different conversation.

 

[Wannano]

Do I believe it’s possible? Yes, but let me put it from my perspective first. Let’s say there is a cultural protestant who is at the evangelical church “every time the doors are open.” They have no depth in the faith aspect, only in the social. Now, they attend mass with a friend and are drawn into the beauty, liturgy, the catechism, etc… and truly have a conversion of heart to follow Christ. I can say, even from this side of the Tiber, they are better off there.

You’ve no doubt heard of cultural Catholics who are like the evangelical above; no depth in the faith. What is better? For them to stay in that, or for them to have a conversion of the heart? And what if that conversion could come about if they heard the word preached by a particular baptist preacher? Yes, I fully understand that Catholics would want them to have that depth as a Catholic in a Catholic congregation. Even supposing that Catholicism is the true path, could it not be within the realm of possibility that someone could need the Spirit to take them to a place they could hear a certain message? Even if that place were in a Baptist church?

Do I believe God wants us all in the same place? Absolutely. Do I believe God can use fellow Christians to push us farther in our journey despite our fractures? Yes.

As to your last part about teachings, I would disagree, but that’s a different conversation.

Beautiful post Kliska. Does God want us all in the same place? Absolutely, a place of conversion of the heart…a circumcision of the heart.

 

[rcwitness]

Do I believe it’s possible? Yes, but let me put it from my perspective first. Let’s say there is a cultural protestant who is at the evangelical church “every time the doors are open.” They have no depth in the faith aspect, only in the social. Now, they attend mass with a friend and are drawn into the beauty, liturgy, the catechism, etc… and truly have a conversion of heart to follow Christ. I can say, even from this side of the Tiber, they are better off there.

Someone with “no depth in the faith” has nothing to do with my question. I asking about those who devote to the Catholic faith. The Catholic faith calls us to the initial and constant conversion of hearts. Using people who deny the faith by neglecting Teachings and tenants of the faith is changing the direction of my question.

You’ve no doubt heard of cultural Catholics who are like the evangelical above; no depth in the faith. What is better? For them to stay in that, or for them to have a conversion of the heart? And what if that conversion could come about if they heard the word preached by a particular baptist preacher? Yes, I fully understand that Catholics would want them to have that depth as a Catholic in a Catholic congregation. Even supposing that Catholicism is the true path, could it not be within the realm of possibility that someone could need the Spirit to take them to a place they could hear a certain message? Even if that place were in a Baptist church?

The Catholic faith does not deny the Gospel message embraced by Christian communities, such as a Baptist congregation, yet who do not profess and practice the fullness of the faith.

Do I believe God wants us all in the same place? Absolutely. Do I believe God can use fellow Christians to push us farther in our journey despite our fractures? Yes.

What is the “same place He wants us to be”? Would that not be the Lord’s Supper? Are the Lord’s Suppers celebrated by various Christians an actual sign of unity with all Christians?

 

[Peter_J]

I realize that the question was Protestant-directed, but I think that if you restrict consideration to people with constant conversion of heart, then the answer would have to be yes.

 

[rcwitness]

I realize that the question was Protestant-directed, but I think that if you restrict consideration to people with constant conversion of heart, then the answer would have to be yes.

Well that is part of the Catholic faith, right?

 

[rcwitness]

CCC # 1426
Conversion to Christ, the new birth of Baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit and the Body and Blood of Christ received as food have made us “holy and without blemish,” just as the Church herself, the Bride of Christ, is “holy and without blemish.” Nevertheless the new life received in Christian initiation has not abolished the frailty and weakness of human nature, nor the inclination to sin that tradition calls concupiscence, which remains in the baptized such that with the help of the grace of Christ they may prove themselves in the struggle of Christian life. This is the struggle ofconversion directed toward holiness and eternal life to which the Lord never ceases to call us.

 

[Peter_J]

Well that is part of the Catholic faith, right?

Don’t hate me because I’m Catholic!

But seriously, even if I were Protestant I think I’d still have to say Yes to the above question.

 

[Kliska]

Someone with “no depth in the faith” has nothing to do with my question.

Yes, it does because of the way it’s being discussed.

I asking about those who devote to the Catholic faith. The Catholic faith calls us to the initial and constant conversion of hearts. Using people who deny the faith by neglecting Teachings and tenants of the faith is changing the direction of my question.

It’s not changing the direction because each must be examined; someone with no faith, someone with protestant faith, someone in a protestant faith not converted, someone with catholic faith, someone in a catholic faith not converted. What God does with each of those, if He’s guiding them may look very different.

The Catholic faith does not deny the Gospel message embraced by Christian communities, such as a Baptist congregation, yet who do not profess and practice the fullness of the faith.

Exactly, therefore would it not be better (perhaps not best from your POV, but better) for a cultural catholic to have a conversion of heart even if that meant God guiding them to hear the gospel message preached by a Baptist preacher?

What is the “same place He wants us to be”? Would that not be the Lord’s Supper? Are the Lord’s Suppers celebrated by various Christians an actual sign of unity with all Christians?

Depends on perspective, and who is and who is not preventing that unity. Different denominations are going to see that very differently.

 

[rcwitness]

Yes, it does because of the way it’s being discussed.

But I am asking the question based on “the Catholic faith” as a whole, not picking and choosing.

It’s not changing the direction because each must be examined; someone with no faith, someone with protestant faith, someone in a protestant faith not converted, someone with catholic faith, someone in a catholic faith not converted. What God does with each of those, if He’s guiding them may look very different.

Let me use a Scriptural example:
1 Tim. 5
Command this, so that they may be without reproach.*If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
Now, Paul doesn’t care if this person believes in the Resurrection of Christ, if they are forsaking the faith in “providing for one’s relatives”. So too, a Catholic who follows everything, yet falls into a mortal sin is worse than an unbeliever. The point is to live by faith, not by “some faith”.

Exactly, therefore would it not be better (perhaps not best from your POV, but better) for a cultural catholic to have a conversion of heart even if that meant God guiding them to hear the gospel message preached by a Baptist preacher?

Just because a preacher is preaching the Gospel that the Catholic Church first preached, doesn’t mean they are able to offer the Lord’s Supper to the faithful.

Yet, if the only revelation a person receives is an imperfect one from a splintered group, then one can certainly attain salvation, and so be obedient to what he knows is from God.

Depends on perspective, and who is and who is not preventing that unity. Different denominations are going to see that very differently.

Isn’t that the nature of “denominations”; seeing things different?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Do I believe it’s possible? Yes, but let me put it from my perspective first. Let’s say there is a cultural protestant who is at the evangelical church “every time the doors are open.” They have no depth in the faith aspect, only in the social. Now, they attend mass with a friend and are drawn into the beauty, liturgy, the catechism, etc… and truly have a conversion of heart to follow Christ. I can say, even from this side of the Tiber, they are better off there.

You’ve no doubt heard of cultural Catholics who are like the evangelical above; no depth in the faith. What is better? For them to stay in that, or for them to have a conversion of the heart? And what if that conversion could come about if they heard the word preached by a particular baptist preacher? Yes, I fully understand that Catholics would want them to have that depth as a Catholic in a Catholic congregation. Even supposing that Catholicism is the true path, could it not be within the realm of possibility that someone could need the Spirit to take them to a place they could hear a certain message? Even if that place were in a Baptist church?

Do I believe God wants us all in the same place? Absolutely. Do I believe God can use fellow Christians to push us farther in our journey despite our fractures? Yes.

As to your last part about teachings, I would disagree, but that’s a different conversation.

Good and rational post Kliska. Thank you.

I think where rcwitness is going with this is the Eucharist. If it is what the Church says it is, then every Christian on planet earth would love to have it and should have it.

But obviously non Catholics feel differently about it. This is the core issue that separates us imo.

 

[rcwitness]

It’s not changing the direction because each must be examined; someone with no faith, someone with protestant faith, someone in a protestant faith not converted, someone with catholic faith, someone in a catholic faith not converted. What God does with each of those, if He’s guiding them may look very different.

I should better address this than how I approached it before. My OP was not concerned with a dissenting Catholic (or as you put it, “someone in a Catholic faith not converted”). How would you describe someone “in a Catholic faith but not converted”? Is that someone who participates in the Sacraments without belief or obedience?