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mgrfin
Guest
I think we are wasting our time on Sandusky.
He has decided not to respond intelligently
Only after the storm will he come back out, and everything has to be repeated.
We are here, anyway.
peace
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He has decided not to respond intelligently
Only after the storm will he come back out, and everything has to be repeated.
We are here, anyway.
peace
S
sandusky
Guest
"MarcoPolo:
flights of fancy.
And your opinion of why they taught that Mary was sinless?
I believe I stated earlier in the thread that, IMO, they did so from allegorical/spiritual/pious
flights of fancy.
And your opinion of why they taught that Mary was sinless?
J
justinthemartyr
Guest
Mary’s sinlessness was not due to any inherent perfection she had apart from God; her very sinlessness was purely a gift from God her Savior (cf. Luke 1:46-48). As a human being who descended from our first parents, Mary was due to inherit original sin. Had God done nothing at the point of conception, she would have inherited it. Because she was to be God’s own Mother and was to have a share in setting right the damage done to the human race by Adam and Eve, God used the graces Christ would win for humanity on the cross and saved her from all stain of sin from the moment of her conception. Her sinlessness does not diminish God’s saving power; if anything, his work to preserve Mary’s soul free from any and all sin demonstrates the limitlessness of his saving power.
-michelle arnold
-michelle arnold
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Because Mary is kecharitomene, because she is the new Ark of the Covenant, the new Eve, the figure of the perfected heavenly Church, because God is able to preserve us without sin, etc…ad nauseum…all which can be seen in Scripture.And your opinion of why they taught that Mary was sinless?
Not going to debate you on where…you should know by now anyway. But I hope it at least puts an end to the rather naive, if you forgive me for saying, notion that the idea is from “pious flights of fancy.”
Carry on my friend!
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sandusky
Guest
Continued allegorical/spiritual/pious flights of fancy.
Because Mary is kecharitomene, because she is the new Ark of the Covenant, the new Eve, the figure of the perfected heavenly Church, because God is able to preserve us without sin, etc…ad nauseum…all which can be seen in Scripture.
J
JMMK
Guest
In regards to Romans 5:12. So by saying that all men sinned, does that mean Jesus sinned? Being of course that he was True God and True Man. Or was it just an easy way for him to communicate to his audience?
Here are a few points for consideration (I have a head cold and can’t form it in to a nice paragraph.)
This does not perfectly state that she was immaculately concieved, but it shows that it is not counter to scripture.
Here are a few points for consideration (I have a head cold and can’t form it in to a nice paragraph.)
- The Word became Flesh within Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit.
- God is Perfect. He doesn’t have back-up plan. Thereby the Word was always meant to enter the world through Mary.
- One way to define Original Sin is the desire to Sin, to turn away from God.
- As stated in the psalms (if I remember properly) God states that he knew us ere we were formed in the womb.
- In Luke’s Gospel, Gabriel greets her “Hail full of Grace” which is present tense. “You will concieve and bear a son” future tense. So she was in a state of Grace before she actually had his body in her womb.
This does not perfectly state that she was immaculately concieved, but it shows that it is not counter to scripture.
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mgrfin
Guest
Right. Like the Redemption of mankind was all imagined.Continued allegorical/spiritual/pious flights of fancy.
You have offered nothing of interest so far, except an occasional sneer of a skeptic.
Sandusky, I am still awaiting that link to Leo I regarding the Virgin Mary.
peace
J
justinthemartyr
Guest
I am not quite sure what you mean by this factual typology from scripture and all of church history?Continued allegorical/spiritual/pious flights of fancy.
S
sandusky
Guest
Christ is excepted Heb 4:15
Why does the Spirit indwell the believer who, though regenerated, still has the principle of evil, and sin dwelling within him/her (Rom 7:20-21)?
It is counter to scripture—all of it.
Your doctrines make logical sense, but that logical sense is not supported by scripture.
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mgrfin
Guest
I agree with everything you say. Part of the problem is that we are living with this notion of “Sola Scriptura”. We give to our Protestant brethren this gift by saying what we believe is what you tell us to believe it is in Scripture.
Unfortunately, what they believe in Scripture is not what we believe is in Scripture. They reject the Eucharist, they reject the sacraments, they reject Mary’s sinlessness, they reject the founding of the Church on Peter.
They try to impose on us that we are once saved always saved, and that we are justified by faith only, which requires us to believe that we are evil, corrupt, and have no free will. This was never taught by Jesus Christ, or by his Church.
In addition to our understanding of the Scriptures about the Eucharist, the Sacraments, the founding of the Church, how we are justified by faith (not only), and grace, and that we have a free will which will deny this cop-out of once saved, always saved, and that our salvation is guaranteed no matter how we live our lives.
We have the teaching authority of the Church, the Unwritten Word of God, which is part of Divine Revelation along with Sacred Scripture, which has been given to the Church by the Holy Spirit to guide, protect and interprete.
In addition to Scripture supporting the Sinlessness of Mary, we have the Unwritten Word of God, Sacred Tradition. Protestants will never accept that. We can only pray for them.
peace.
S
sandusky
Guest
Ah yes; the Marian connection to the salvation of mankind.
Not the skeptical, but the rational.
I’ve told you, I don’t have a net a link; however, I did cite the author, the book title, the publisher, the page number. Sorry if that’s enough for you.
J
justinthemartyr
Guest
mentally retarded men cannot sin, for they do not know what sin is, they cannot differentiate. Unborn babies cannot commit a sin, neither can infants under an age of accountability. Insane people cannot sin.
there are many exceptions to this scripture.
Your interpretation of scripture is not authoritative.
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sandusky
Guest
The typology may seem factual to you, but the typology I’ve read concerning Marian things only serves to demonstrate that anyone, can make the scripture say anything they want it to say. As far as church history, the earliest of the Fathers taught that Mary had sinned, as I’ve demonstrated; the sinlessness of Mary developed over time, as Catholics have demonstrated.
J
justinthemartyr
Guest
so the ark of the covenant did not hold three “types” of Jesus Christ?
so Mary, the Mother of God, did not hold the typological NT fulfillment of what the OT ark contained??
so Mary, the Mother of God, did not hold the typological NT fulfillment of what the OT ark contained??
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sandusky
Guest
Says you?
Please, book, chapter, verse, that states all of the above-mentioned assertions
and exceptions.
It’s as authoritative as God’s word. How authoritative is God’s word? :ehh:
J
justinthemartyr
Guest
Please do not try to turn the argument on me. Please tell me how an infant can sin, a mentally retarded person can sin? If one does not know what sin is, then how can they sin? They cannot.
your interpretation holds no water whatever, it is your private interpretation, not dogmatic in any degree. You are not a bishop of the Church, nor an ordained presbyter.
Any church started after the one that Christ instituted is man made and therefore is not the church Christ started. One flock, one shepherd.
by the way, do you know who put those chapters and verses IN the Bible? two Catholic men.
those are not Biblical either, they are traditions.
you hold to non biblical tradition, technically speaking.
your interpretation holds no water whatever, it is your private interpretation, not dogmatic in any degree. You are not a bishop of the Church, nor an ordained presbyter.
Any church started after the one that Christ instituted is man made and therefore is not the church Christ started. One flock, one shepherd.
by the way, do you know who put those chapters and verses IN the Bible? two Catholic men.
those are not Biblical either, they are traditions.
you hold to non biblical tradition, technically speaking.
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sandusky
Guest
Jesus asserts in Jn 5:39, that the scriptures testify about Him, not Mary, not anyone else, but Christ. You’d do well to endeavor to understand that, IMO.
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sandusky
Guest
Is this a feeling that you have? You offer no proof, just your opinion/feelings.
Augustine said that infants sin; didn’t he?
justinthemartry:
The topic switch; you’re running out of steam.
W
Writer
Guest
Of course she needed a savior. Is this your only point? As the CCC puts it, she “was redeemed at the moment of her conception”.This is for Protestants and any Catholics who would like to chime in on the peculiarities of his comments. This morning I was listening to John MacArthur (God bless him) again and he said the following, starting with a quote from Luke chapter 1, he said:"…verse 47, ‘and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.’ Mary is the savior of nobody. Mary needs a savior. And she says ‘God is my Savior. He is the One Who delivers me from sin.’ Mary while being the best of sinners, if there is such a thing, the noblest of young maidens, the most beautiful of virgins, Mary must have been the finest of young girls in every way, but Mary needed a Savior…she was a sinner."Full audio file here (this part is between 14:00-15:00).
So what do you think? Is this a “proof” text that Mary was a sinner as Mr. MacArthur has asserted?
J
justinthemartyr
Guest
The church has spoken, and the church in her dogmatic spectrum holds the exact weight that scripture does, just as Paul stated in 2 thess 2:15 for it is not only hte written tradition of the church but also the oral sacred tradition of the church which you hold in your hand in the form of the Bible which was given to the whole world by this one church, the Body of Christ.
It always comes back to authority, of which you do not have adequate authority without Christ speaking through His one Church He instituted upon cephas.
as far as infants are concerned, I specifically stated that i was speaking of infants who have no ability to reason.
the church, yes the One Church Christ instituted has spoken on the other issues, your interpretation of scripture is not necessary on this matter for scripture is not the sole authority on any matter of faith and morals.
thank you.
It always comes back to authority, of which you do not have adequate authority without Christ speaking through His one Church He instituted upon cephas.
as far as infants are concerned, I specifically stated that i was speaking of infants who have no ability to reason.
the church, yes the One Church Christ instituted has spoken on the other issues, your interpretation of scripture is not necessary on this matter for scripture is not the sole authority on any matter of faith and morals.
thank you.
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