Do you enforce Tradition at Mass?

  • Thread starter Thread starter alessandro
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Most everyone is aware that over the past 40 years, there have been many liturgical abuses in the Church Liturgy and rubrics of Mass. Many of these have become so commonplace and longstanding, at this point, that they are utterly ingrained, and many Catholics don’t know any different.

When attending a Novus Ordo Mass (especially in the vernacular), how do you enforce Tradition?
When I attend the Pauline Rite, I use a Missal:bigyikes: and follow the rubrics as prescribed. Quite often few others do but every now and then someone will see the Missal, assume that I am an off duty Priest or religious of some sort and follow suit.

I don’t admonish those who choose to dress immodestly or act disrespectful unless it is so distracting that it disturbs those around them or creates a disturbance of some sort. Which has happened by the way, Other than that I figure if God means so little to them that will be be so blatantly disrespectful to Him, then that is really between them and God and they, as will I, will pay for their offenses.
 
Actually, it is. It’s been addressed by previous Councils, Popes, and even Paul VI didn’t approve. John Paul II doesn’t encourage it. Being allowed only makes it a legal abuse, like abortion. It’s not right, but it’s permitted.
That is the wrong analogy. The Church cannot have official documents that if followed lead to mortal sin and excommunication. Abortion may be allowed in civil law, but it is a mortal sin and grounds for immediate excommunication in Church law. Following the norms of the official documents given by one’s bishops cannot be sinful.
 
If I notice a liturgical abuse, I find the priest after mass, and strongly express my concern to him, and remind him that it is his responsbility to follow the rules and promote pious practises.

Lately, though, I’ve given up on speaking with my priest about theseince he has shown time and time again that he isn’t interested in following the GIRM. For example, this morning at Mass, he wore an overlay stole (over the chasuble), which is not permitted. Knowing that if I asked him why he did it, he would deflect the question, and not change his habits, I didn’t approach him about it. Almost all priests know the GIRM, and if they don’t choose to follow it, we’re not going to convince them. The same applies to liberal liturgical directors. Even if they don’t know what the GIRM says, they usually don’t care.

Other than that, our only duty as laymen is to educate those willing to listen. For example, if someone says after mass “it was so nice that we could Father’s stole today,” I usually approach that person, tell them that overlay stoles are not allowed, and explain why. This is especially important to do with young people, so that twenty years from now, our priests and liturgical directors will not need to be reminded of the rules, and we can fully devote our energies to other matters.

And if people don’t listen–shake the dust off your sandals, and move on to the next person.
 
Most everyone is aware that over the past 40 years, there have been many liturgical abuses in the Church Liturgy and rubrics of Mass. Many of these have become so commonplace and longstanding, at this point, that they are utterly ingrained, and many Catholics don’t know any different.

When attending a Novus Ordo Mass (especially in the vernacular), how do you enforce Tradition?
hi allesandro–so ironic that you post this thread. My dh and I were chatting about this today on the way home after mass…where has the traditional mass gone? It seems like it’s all about singing prayers that were often stated, profoundly, and as a whole…now, it seems to be all about the choir singing hymns and prayers, and removing and (name removed by moderator)utting words that were never there. My dh would like me to email the parish pastor/priest to just share our thoughts. No one is able to follow along half the time, because the songs change from week to week…why is this being allowed? Even the Lord’s prayer has something added in the end…‘until the end of time.’ Um…did Jesus say that? Are Jesus’ words not enough? I enjoy this new church, and don’t want to dwell on what is ‘wrong’ with mass, but I am starting to observe things that don’t sit well with my husband and me, and we just don’t know if a traditional mass in the south even exists??😦
 
Well, what I do of that list, it’s more of necessity from other unrelated issues.

I receive on the tongue due to some nerve damage in my right hand. I’m dropping mundane stuff all the time, and I just don’t dare receive in the hand due to that infirmity. Fortunately, it’s common in my home parish and none of the parishes I visited when traveling have a problem with this point.

Then when we’re not traveling, my older two sons are altar boys. They are required to be present at least 15 minutes before Mass starts (we usually make it 20 minutes ahead) to do whatever duties they’ve got going on back there. Since I’m already there–might as well pray. Likewise, the departure–especially on heavier attendance weeks when I had to drop the boys off and find parking elsewhere (yes, 20 minutes ahead of Mass, sometimes you have to park in a block other than where the church is), I need to wait for them to finish up their post-Mass duties … so might as well pray again. So–come early, stay late–yes.

But as far as ‘enforcing tradition’, I don’t think that’s what I’m doing.
 
I would simply like to echo Br Rich SFO and Puzzleannie’s posts.
 
Unless you are the sacristan or serving in some related ministerial role, what are you doing in the sacristy anyway?
You are correct… Sorry. I meant to type “Sacristy or main body of the Church,” but I ran out of room for the poll.
 
My question to the OP is, why don’t you just go to a Tridentine Mass?
 
That is the wrong analogy. The Church cannot have official documents that if followed lead to mortal sin and excommunication. Abortion may be allowed in civil law, but it is a mortal sin and grounds for immediate excommunication in Church law. Following the norms of the official documents given by one’s bishops cannot be sinful.
Just out of curiosity (I’m not picking a fight, I really want to know): what Church document encourages reception of Communion in the hand? It’s been considered for quite a while to be an abuse, sacrilegious, sinful. Allowing it recently was a cave-in because the liberal bishops *refused *to obey.
 
When attending a Novus Ordo Mass (especially in the vernacular), how do you enforce Tradition?
The word “enforce” does not resonate with me. However, perhaps you mean something like if I see someone playing with a host and not consuming Jesus immediately, then I would follow them and speak to the person.

I think the best thing to do is behave as we ought at mass. Genuflect at the right time, be attentive at the right time, pray at the right time, speak at the right time, etc.
 
This reminds me of a time when I was praying silently in the Adoration Chapel of my old parish. It was a warm spring day, and the windows to the small Chapel were open to allow in a cool breeze.

There were some boys outside playing with their skateboards on the Church steps, and all we could hear inside the Chapel was “skkkkkkkkkrash! skkkkkkrash!” as the boys attempted various jumps… and their cheers and boos as they fell or succeeded.

Eventually, when I realized that they weren’t going to go away, I went outside to speak with them.

“Hey guys. It’s a wonderful day out, isn’t it?”
“Yeah.” they agreed, somewhat reluctantly.
“I’m just wondering… is there somewhere else where you could take your skateboards to play? I’m sure you didn’t realize, but there’s a silent Adoration Chapel right there - see the windows open - it’s really small, it gets really hot in there if we close the windows… anyways, it’s really difficult to pray when we can hear you guys having so much fun out here. I’m sure you didn’t mean to be distracting - do you think you could even just move down to the other corner over there?”
“Yeah, sure. sorry about that.”

and the boys left to continue playing.

later, my godmother said “I was ready to really let lose on those kids. you were really nice to them, I couldn’t have done that.”

“Well, I just assumed that they honestly didn’t know any better.”

People don’t come to Mass with the intention of disrespecting Jesus. The choir doesn’t pick music with the intention of dissuading the participation of the congregation, or with the intention of disrespecting Jesus.

So I guess, when I see people suggesting that we chastise others so thoroughly and frequently, I have to wonder why everything is being taken as a personal affront - instead of being looked on as either ignorance, forgetfullness, or even an attempt to better engage oneself in the worship of the Church.

That being said, there are times when correction is needed… for example, when my eight year old little sister came outside, wearing a tube top, to join my mother and I in the front yard - I told her that the shirt she was wearing was disgusting.

My mother intervened, and told me to just wait for her to figure out for herself what is appropriate to wear.

I strongly disagree with this approach to parenting, as it is specifically a mother’s responsibility to instruct her daughters in how to respect their bodies.

When I see young women wearing miniskirts at Mass, I do make an effort to broach the topic of modesty with them. Still, I try to take the assumption of innocence…

When I see someone wearing a pair of jeans and tshirt at Mass, I wonder if maybe that person was busy doing something and ran out of time to get ready for Mass - or if they are just so focused on their desire for the Eucharist that they maybe forgot to pick out a better outfit - or if maybe they just can’t afford a too much nicer outfit, like myself.

I don’t tend to be one of those people who wants to think of themselves as better than the rest… because I’m not. How can I look down on someone who leaves right after communion with God - when I myself have been in communion with the devil himself and not known it for what it was? Surely if one of us is the worse sinner, it is I.

How can I chastise someone for speaking in the back of the Church, when I’ve been known to burst full out in tears during the Consecration? Or when I’ve spoken in the back of the Church before myself, asking someone to guide me through the morning prayer if we’re saying that morning - or passing a compliment to the choir director, or asking for a copy of the bulletin when the last one is gone…

We all forget ourselves some times, we all slip up in our own ways. I trust that many people are trying their best, and that when they go home to examine their conscience - they either know themselves what it is they are doing wrong in their lives - or the Holy Spirit will illumine it for them if they are meant to correct that particular thing at that moment.

Remember that we are all in a struggle with sin, every day. A struggle with complacency - over our own thoughts and deeds - every day. And that God will lead us through it at the pace that is right for each unique person.

(also, many of the things you listed are not liturgical abuses and it would seem arrogant, IMO, to ignore the norms and attempt to force everyone else around you to do things your way)

Pax Christi
 
Just out of curiosity (I’m not picking a fight, I really want to know): what Church document encourages reception of Communion in the hand? It’s been considered for quite a while to be an abuse, sacrilegious, sinful. Allowing it recently was a cave-in because the liberal bishops *refused *to obey.
The document does not encourage reception in the hand or on the tongue. It is the choice of the communicant in how to receive. I posted the link in my post #20. Here it is again. usccb.org/liturgy/current/norms.shtml
 
Here’s how I answered:

*I gently beat my chest as I say the “Non sum dignum” (Lord, I’m not worthy to receive thee) *

I did this without knowing that it used to be a common practice. In fact, I’m not exactly sure when I began doing this… I may have seen someone do it and thought it was a beautiful practice, but I’m not sure.
*
I receive Communion on the tongue, not in the hand *

Not much to say about this one.

*I arrive early… and I say prayers of thanksgiving after Mass, instead of leaving right away *

I always feel awckward if I arrive late (as in, just in time) for Mass, or if I have to leave right away. This extra prayer time is extremely important to me.

Here are some options that I would have chosen, if not for the latter half of the options.

I only receive Communion if I’ve gone to Confession

If I am in a state of mortal sin, then I will abstain from receiving until I have gone to Confession. I am in no position to judge others, though.

I do not chit-chat

AHH!!! Goodness gracious! Last night, after the University Mass, the noise was nearly unbearable to me! No one had any respect for anyone who was still praying- or even for Jesus, in the Tabernacle. It was as if some sort of “speech” just got over with and now it was “social” time. Wait until you get outside the Church, people! Goodness!
 
I only checked one item. I would have checked more, but you lost me with the frequent, “…and I chastise them…” for whatever it is they’re supposed to be doing. I’d like to chastise them, at times, but I don’t. On purpose.
 
Same as others here. I am not the liturgy police and enforce nothing. I do most of the things on the list, but not all are abuses. The pope has authority. Bishops have authority. Self-appointed enforcers do not and serve little purpose, unless they just enjoy fighting.
 
Actually, it is. It’s been addressed by previous Councils, Popes, and even Paul VI didn’t approve. John Paul II doesn’t encourage it. Being allowed only makes it a legal abuse, like abortion. It’s not right, but it’s permitted.
Communion in the hand = abortion.

wow.

do you honestly have any idea how that concept sounds?
 
AHH!!! Goodness gracious! Last night, after the University Mass, the noise was nearly unbearable to me! No one had any respect for anyone who was still praying- or even for Jesus, in the Tabernacle. It was as if some sort of “speech” just got over with and now it was “social” time. Wait until you get outside the Church, people! Goodness!
This brings back the memory of a Mass I attended back in December of '06. I had just returned to the Faith, and was visiting different parishes in search of one I felt comfortable with. I arrived right on time, about 1 minute before Mass started, and was very happy with the Mass. The priest was very solemn in his celebration of the Mass. The people sang with the choir quite well, with vigor and joy. I had my own St Josephs Missal, and the priest followed the rubics exactly as they were printed in the missal. No announcements during or after the Mass.

But once the organist had played her last note, I was shocked. It sounded as though I was at a chicken supper at a church picnic.
Not just talking. Laughter, children running toward the door, one lady was waving her arms wildly and literally screaming “don’t leave yet” to someone near the back of the church.

Obviously, the Real Presence isn’t a concern in that parish. Sad.
 
Communion in the hand = abortion.

wow.

do you honestly have any idea how that concept sounds?
My point in comparing the two was that these were both illegal and made legal only when people started saying “we’ll do it anyway.” Communion in the hand is nothing more than a legalized abuse, is not encouraged by any Saing, and condemned by several. Now it’s “permitted;” that doesn’t make it right.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top