Do you ever feel sorry for Judas Iscariot?

[I_Believe]

Yes: this is from the Compendium of the Catechism, which was released within the past five years or so.

There are a lot of people who seem to be under the impression that the rule against working on Sundays went away along with the Blue Law. Obviously, this doesn’t pertain to people who do necessary work like medical care, fire fighting, etc., but there are also a lot of people who appear to think that running out of paper or candy bars is an emergency on par with a fire or a heart attack - at least, judging by the fact that they keep their paper stores and candy stores open on Sundays, it would seem that they think so.

I read a statistic in the United Church Observer one time that if everyone who considers himself or herself to be a Christian were to refrain from unnecessary shopping on Sundays, the stores would close and the employees would be able to go to Church.

There you go scaring the ignorant with facts

Is it ok to go to a cafeteria on Sunday ? (pun intended )

Seriously though, thanks for bringing it up. We are seeing some good topics pop up here lately on TC.

AN ASPIRATION TO THE ETERNAL FATHER
TO BE FREQUENTLY RECITED DURING THE DAY

ETERNAL FATHER, we offer You the Holy Face of Jesus, covered with blood, sweat, dust and spittle, in reparation for the crimes of communists, blasphemers, and for the profaners of the Holy Name and of the Holy Day. AMEN.

 

[Roza]

As long as this is the topic, I’m curious… because I heard this several years ago and honestly at the time was still a strayed Catholic and attending a non-Catholic church… it was a conversation with a relative that said if Judas hadn’t committed suicide he would’ve been a saint because he fulfilled his purpose. And that tripped me up quite a bit… I’m still not sure how to take that remark. If it was already addressed in this thread and I missed it I’m sorry, didn’t read all of it.

 

[I_Believe]

When I see someone trying to wiggle around issues such as working on Sunday, I’m reminded of the story of someone walkling up to W.C.Fields as he was flipping through a bible, and asked “what are you doing”? W.C. replied, "I’m looking for the loopholes ".

 

[FCEGM]

As long as this is the topic, I’m curious… because I heard this several years ago and honestly at the time was still a strayed Catholic and attending a non-Catholic church… it was a conversation with a relative that said if Judas hadn’t committed suicide he would’ve been a saint because he fulfilled his purpose. And that tripped me up quite a bit… I’m still not sure how to take that remark. If it was already addressed in this thread and I missed it I’m sorry, didn’t read all of it.

I’m afraid your relative has a very perverse understanding of God’s permissive will; He never desires anyone to do evil - especially to hand Jesus over for death! Judas could, however, have become a Saint had he repented of his action and lived his life in fidelity to Christ, but instead he chose the sin of despair.

 

[FCEGM]

Would you do drastic things to people close to you in a rash emotional moment? Like… call your sister something awful and hit her because for that moment you are upset? People do things they don’t mean when they were in the heat of emotion.

Judas wanted Christ to be a warrior- take on Rome. Maybe in one moment of anger or disappointment he made a fatal mistake…

It’s very tragic. I do pity him. Perhaps he could have repented had he not hung himself… but than maybe in that last moment he did… who knows…

St. John depicts Judas very straight-forwardly as a common thief given over to greed – the price for the Lord was too tempting. It seems to me that trying to politicize his motives comes about because we see in Judas our own betrayals and we try to glamorize our sinfulness, or make it appear less than it is, and yet in Judas it comes down to greed – we don’t like thinking that we could possibly be as venal.

 

[Whdevo]

As long as this is the topic, I’m curious… because I heard this several years ago and honestly at the time was still a strayed Catholic and attending a non-Catholic church… it was a conversation with a relative that said if Judas hadn’t committed suicide he would’ve been a saint because he fulfilled his purpose. And that tripped me up quite a bit… I’m still not sure how to take that remark. If it was already addressed in this thread and I missed it I’m sorry, didn’t read all of it.

In the Gospel …

Matthew 27:3 When Judas, his betrayer, saw that he was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders,
Matthew 27:4 saying, “I have sinned in betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.”
Matthew 27:5 And throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself.

And then the story goes on to tell of the Barabas incident and the Crucifixion.

Now, if the death of Christ (after Judas had hanged himself) was to atone all sin up until that time and to allow for the forgiveness of sins in the future -or have I got it wrong?-, this, coupled with the fact that Judas “repented” before he died, would indicate to me that, rather than a “demon in hell” (as is alluded to in another post), he is in heaven.

If we believe that God motivates all, then we must accept that it was God who motivated Judas to play the necessary part he played n the Crucifixion.

Would not, then, especially given his “repentance”, any other eventuality be “unjust” (and God cannot be unjust …)?

God Bless

William

Williaim

 

[FCEGM]

In the Gospel …

Matthew 27:3 When Judas, his betrayer, saw that he was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders,
Matthew 27:4 saying, “I have sinned in betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.”
Matthew 27:5 And throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself.

And then the story goes on to tell of the Barabas incident and the Crucifixion.

Now, if the death of Christ (after Judas had hanged himself) was to atone all sin up until that time and to allow for the forgiveness of sins in the future -or have I got it wrong?-, this, coupled with the fact that Judas “repented” before he died, would indicate to me that, rather than a “demon in hell” (as is alluded to in another post), he is in heaven.

If we believe that God motivates all, then we must accept that it was God who motivated Judas to play the necessary part he played n the Crucifixion.

Would not, then, especially given his “repentance”, any other eventuality be “unjust” (and God cannot be unjust …)?

God Bless

William

Williaim

William, true repentance does not then take the step into suicide which in Judas’ case signifies despair, which is a sin - the loss of hope in God’s merciful love.

 

[redrosetea]

You must show contrition for you sin and it appears he did, on the surface, but there is still the matter of his suicide that was a sin. Perhaps when the branch broke it allowed him to die from accidental means rather than taking his own life

I am not sure that Judas is in heaven…I hate to think of anyone going to hell…I hope he is ,even though he is a really unsympathetic character for many of us

 

[FCEGM]

Now, if the death of Christ (after Judas had hanged himself) was to atone all sin up until that time and to allow for the forgiveness of sins in the future -or have I got it wrong?-, this, coupled with the fact that Judas “repented” before he died, would indicate to me that, rather than a “demon in hell” (as is alluded to in another post), he is in heaven.

If we believe that God motivates all, then we must accept that it was God who motivated Judas to play the necessary part he played n the Crucifixion… . .

God forces no one to do evil. He knows our hearts, but does not force conversion on us. Thus Judas was not in anyway coerced by the Lord to allow Satan to enter him. Judas, who is already known as a thief, allowed Satan’s entry to do what his already-corrupted heart led him to do. The Lord, of course, knew Judas’ heart and that all would work according to God’s plan because evil, though it has its temporary victories, will never be the victor in The End, but He doesn’t excuse his betrayal. Judas was no more a mere pawn in God’s plan than was the Blessed Mother; but while Mary said “yes”, Judas’ answer was “no.”

 

[FCEGM]

You must show contrition for you sin and it appears he did, on the surface, but there is still the matter of his suicide that was a sin. Perhaps when the branch broke it allowed him to die from accidental means rather than taking his own life.

An accidental death in the process of committing suicide negates the suicide?

 

[redrosetea]

I don’t know I am not God and can’t decide the mental or spirutal state of Judas…the church’s teaching on suicide is a compassionate one, if the people are sick

 

[Whdevo]

God forces no one to do evil. He knows our hearts, but does not force conversion on us. Thus Judas was not in anyway coerced by the Lord to allow Satan to enter him. Judas, who is already known as a thief, allowed Satan’s entry to do what his already-corrupted heart led him to do. The Lord, of course, knew Judas’ heart and that all would work according to God’s plan because evil, though it has its temporary victories, will never be the victor in The End, but He doesn’t excuse his betrayal. Judas was no more a mere pawn in God’s plan than was the Blessed Mother; but while Mary said “yes”, Judas’ answer was “no.”

With respect, I did not say that God “forced” anything … I asked about the premise of God motivating all …

And, as to Judas’ sin of suicide, was that not also atoned for by the death of Jesus Christ … ?

I believe that there is another, often missed, point here, and that is that we “judge not, lest we be judged …”, and, when we see someone do something that we have been societised into seeing as evil, then we should remember that everything happens happens at he will of God, and, for that reason, try not to condemn another (for, is that not tantamount to “second guessing” God’s reasoning?).

Again, from my Primary School days, I remember being taught that, when some thing or event causes me disconcert or dismay, that I should accept it, and “offer it up” as a miniscule representation of the great Sacrifice of Jesus Christ for my sins …
and to have confidence that, in sending me these things that I might perceive as unwanted and uncomfortable, God has a reason.

That is my iea of faith.

God Bless

William

 

[Roza]

The explanations make more sense to me… admittedly when I first heard that comment… I was so thrown off by it, still am to an extent but I understand it better now.

 

[Whdevo]

God forces no one to do evil. He knows our hearts, but does not force conversion on us. Thus Judas was not in anyway coerced by the Lord to allow Satan to enter him. Judas, who is already known as a thief, allowed Satan’s entry to do what his already-corrupted heart led him to do. The Lord, of course, knew Judas’ heart and that all would work according to God’s plan because evil, though it has its temporary victories, will never be the victor in The End, but He doesn’t excuse his betrayal. Judas was no more a mere pawn in God’s plan than was the Blessed Mother; but while Mary said “yes”, Judas’ answer was “no.”

Hi,

Once again, it is with respect that I offer what may be a contradiction here…

When Moses was “negotiating” with the Pharoah for the freedom of the Israelites (in Exodus), after the first plague (I think it was …) the Pharaoh wanted to let the people go, but, on successive occasions, God “hardened his heart” and made him pronounce otherwise …

Once again, I see this as an illustration that God “motivates” everything, and for His own reasons, which, if accepted, will ultimately benefit us.

Does not God provide each of us with the various experiences we live through in order to give us the opportunity to realise, believe in, and accept Him, and thus come to Salvation?

The trick, I feel, is “acceptance” …

Best wishes and God Bless

William

 

[Whdevo]

You must show contrition for you sin and it appears he did, on the surface, but there is still the matter of his suicide that was a sin.

Hi,

but, in regard to “contrition”, is it not the case that what we are trying here to deduce by appearances and circumstances, can only be known to the soul concerned and God …

There are many times in the New Testament where Jesus Christ condemns the “hypocrites” who give the appearance of being so pious whilst being the very opposite, so, if we allow conjecture, why not say that Judas was only pretending to be contrite?

“Because there is no evidence for that premise in the Scripture” would be the answer I would expect.

But, cannot, then, the same be said of all conjectures?

So, if we cannot know for certain whether Judas died “contrite”, it is not ours to judge, condemn or otherwise him (ideally, is it not that we should rely on the story as it appears in the Gospel, and do not append our own (necessarliy imperfect) perceptions of motivation, contriteness, or the future of Judas’ soul?

Is all that not “between Judas and God”?

God Bless

William

 

[redrosetea]

Yes I think it is…However Judas is probably one of the most evil characters in Christianity, and when wondering about God’s mercy and forgiveness, it wouldn’t surprise me if it extended to him as well

 

[Whdevo]

Yes I think it is…However Judas is probably one of the most evil characters in Christianity, and when wondering about God’s mercy and forgiveness, it wouldn’t surprise me if it extended to him as well

Matthew 7:1 "Judge not, that you be not judged.
Matthew 7:2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get … etc.,

Luke 6:37 "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

Hi again,

I wonder whether to pronounce Judas -or any body or any thing else- as “evil”, is to offend against the above directives.

Is it not only for someone omniscient to accurately “judge” (and which of us is omniscient?)?

God Bless

William

 

[redrosetea]

Judging his actions he is evil…and we are to judge actions so we can avoid doing evil things ourselves…it is condeming that we are not to do…If you didn’t judge actions how could you teach your children right from wrong?

 

[Whdevo]

Judging his actions he is evil…and we are to judge actions so we can avoid doing evil things ourselves…it is condeming that we are not to do…If you didn’t judge actions how could you teach your children right from wrong?

Hi,

Thank you for replying.

Is it not that, when we are faced with such circumstances or situations as you speak of, we “evaluate” them in an effort to discern whether or not they will ultimately benefit ourselves, and, we then pass on the benefit of those experiences to others, including our “own children”?

But, that is “evaluation”…

The “judgement” of which I -and, I believe, Jesus Christ also- spoke, is present when a man reads into the actions (or non-actions) of another man motivations which, at the end of the day, can only be conjecture on the former’s part (and man being an imperfect being, these conjuctures are themselves likely to be imperfect).

Again, I would ask: “Is it not only for one omniscient to accurately judge?”, and would cite the previoulsy quoted Scripture to support the validity of the proposition implied in the question …

Best Regards, and God Bless

William

 

[redrosetea]

No we are to judge situations all the time, and filter them through scripture to see if they are sinful…This came straight from a deacon…we don’t say people are going to hell because we don’t know if they are, that is for God to say

Judging and condemning are 2 different things…