Do you ever feel sorry for Judas Iscariot?

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Judging and condemning are 2 different things…
Hi again,

two things …

Firstly, you validate your “argument” by telling me that “a deacon” told you … but, and I say this with the greatest respect, then what you have given is the opinion of somebody else (and I mean no disrespect whatsoever to the “deacon” referred to) …

I believe that, in any situation wherein questions in regard to faith become manifest, then the best place start to find answers is the source … and, using the information from the source and my own conscience (and, of course, any other information which presents itself), I hope that I come to the proper way of acting/reacting.

And, when I go back to the source in regard to the point in question, I have to reiterate my position … it seems to me that it is the position of the Gospel that it is not for Christians me to presume the motivation behind another man’s actions, since no-one, other than He who is omniscient, can never have “all the facts”.

And, when considered that way, does it not seem to make sense … ?

Best wishes and God Bless

William
 
No we have to call sin sin, and not pretend its OK to do certain things because only God judges
…We can’t send anyone to hell God does that, and we don’t know who will go to hell, God does

I know evil when I see it…I know it is evil to abort a child, to steal, to slander, and I know it is evil to sell Christ for money

We are going around in circles ,and you won’t change my mind…by their fruits ye shall know them…If we didn’t have a brain we wouldn’t be able to reason…We do have a brain and 10 commandments, breaking them is a sin…sins are evil…You are entitled to your opinion, but it is one I do not share, and dare not for the sake of my soul

I don’t know how clearer I can make my position?
 
No we have to call sin sin, and not pretend its OK to do certain things because only God judges
…We can’t send anyone to hell God does that, and we don’t know who will go to hell, God does

I know evil when I see it…I know it is evil to abort a child, to steal, to slander, and I know it is evil to sell Christ for money

We are going around in circles ,and you won’t change my mind…by their fruits ye shall know them…If we didn’t have a brain we wouldn’t be able to reason…We do have a brain and 10 commandments, breaking them is a sin…sins are evil…You are entitled to your opinion, but it is one I do not share, and dare not for the sake of my soul

I don’t know how clearer I can make my position?
Hi

Please be assured that it is neither my wish to change your opinion (I, being well aware of my own imperfect nature and understanding, would consider it highly presumptuous and inappropriate of me to do so), nor has been my intention to upset you.

I do not advocate that we “should pretend its ok to do certain things …” … in fact, I do not advocate anything.

I have contacted this site in search of the opinion of others in order that I might learn, and, when I put points in reply, these are not to convince anyone that I am right and they are wrong, but because I am trying to learn to see things clearly.

And, if we do have to agree to differ on this situation, I would sincerely hope that we can do so without any animosity whatsoever.

Finally, I would thank you for having engaged in this discussion with me … I have learned …

God Bless

William
 
Little Mary;:
What if Judas had NOT betrayed Jesus? Would Jesus have been found and crucified anyway? Probably so. Why was Judas so essential to this?
Part of the reason I read The Gospel of Judas of Keiroth in 1992, was because I was hoping it would have a better explanation of it. (The other part of the reason was because I was looking at commonalities between various communion rituals).

What it left me with, was the conviction that any of us would have done the same thing. (Oddly enough, I didn’t have that conviction, when I read The National Geographic translation, more than a decade later.)

xan

jonathon
 
Part of the reason I read The Gospel of Judas of Keiroth in 1992, was because I was hoping it would have a better explanation of it. (The other part of the reason was because I was looking at commonalities between various communion rituals).

What it left me with, was the conviction that any of us would have done the same thing. (Oddly enough, I didn’t have that conviction, when I read The National Geographic translation, more than a decade later.)

xan

jonathon
Good evening to you …

I assume that you are Catholic (please forgive me if I am being presumptuous), and, if you are, then your answer (and others on this thread) illustrates a concern that I have had for some time …

Is it not the Catholic case that, when the four Canonical Gospels were decided upon, the Gospel of Judas would have been extant, but, for whatever reason, rejected by the Church Fathers, inspired by the Holy Spirit, in favour of the Gospels which were felt to give the most accurate picture of the life of Jesus Christ?

The Canonical Gospels simply tell us that Judas betrayed Jesus Christ, that, having done so, he repented, unsuccessfully tried to return his betrayal fee, and that he hanged himself, having accepted that he had “sinned in betraying innocent blood”.

I have seen posts referring to the branch “breaking”, but can not find a reference to this in the Gospels … I have read questions raised as to Judas’ motives, but they are not revealled -at least as far as I am aware- in the Gospels … I have read posts speculating upon the ultimate destiny of Judas (i.e. is he in Heaven, or a demon in Hell), but, again, that is not revealed …

Is it not the case that these are mere “conjectures” of man, and, as such, in the end, attempts, by man, to “improve on the clarity” of the words of God (and, if they are, can we imperfect mortals legitimately do this)?

In these “modern” (and, indeed, many would argue, “modernising”) times, is there not a, seemingly ever increasing, sliding into second-guessing, questioning, and conjecture as to the motivation of the word of God, in an attempt at its “rationalisation”, and it this itself not the ultimately futile attempt of a material being to “make perfect sense” the motivations and machinations of pure Spirit?

I mean, how many arguments, for instance, have we seen that state that, when Jesus Christ said “this”, he meant “that” …?

Could it not be argued that, in the case of the revealed word of the Bible, “acceptance”, rather than “critical analysis” should be the order of the day for Catholics?

And I am suspicious of the “National Geographic” and its “raison d’etre”, and, therefore, its motivation …

(In posing these questions, I do not for one minute mean to indicate that I, myself, am “above” such “conjectures” … and I have also often been guilty of the very, selfsame, “critical analysis” that I question.)

I hope that this post will be received in the spirit of enquiry and sincere searcing for understanding in which it has been sent …

God Bless,

William
 
With respect, I did not say that God “forced” anything … I asked about the premise of God motivating all …
The same holds true, William: God never motivates anyone to do evil. His permissive will (as distinct from His perfect will) allows for evil (which He foreknows will occur), evil which, nonetheless, will never overcome His providential plan of salvation. (This article is helpful in seeing the difference between God’s perfect will and His permissive will: mcclare.blogspot.com/2004/08/gods-perfect-will-and-romans-12.html)

We have THE prime example in thhe Crucifixion of Our Lord Jesus Christ through the collusion of Judas with the enemies of the Lord. The killing of the God-Man was evil; Jesus Himself says of Judas who betrayed Him to this end that it would be better if he had not been born, and yet God from that evil brought about our redemption. So, the evil act of the man Judas cannot be excused because the supreme good for man came from it. Neither can God be accused of evil because He permitted Judas’ betrayal and its evil consequences.

God, therefore, can never be accused of guilt when He permits such evil acts. OTOH, in accordance with V.S., MAN cannot excuse himself for the evil that he does by attempting to show the good that GOD has drawn from it.
And, as to Judas’ sin of suicide, was that not also atoned for by the death of Jesus Christ … ?\
All sins are atoned for in and through the death and resurrection of the Lord. This does not mean, however, that all men are then automatically saved. Each must respond - or not - to the grace Christ desires to bestow on each to live according to His Gift.
I believe that there is another, often missed, point here, and that is that we “judge not, lest we be judged …”, and, when we see someone do something that we have been societised into seeing as evil, then we should remember that everything happens happens at he will of God, and, for that reason, try not to condemn another (for, is that not tantamount to “second guessing” God’s reasoning?).
One has not been “societised” into seeing Judas’ act as evil; evil is evil and good is good and the distinction is written on the hearts of men. It is society bereft of the knowledge of God that wishes to deaden those hearts and lose all distinction, never having to burden itself with making judgments about what is good and what is evil (and when it does, it more often these days condones the evil). We are called upon by God to judge rightly through consciences formed according to His Mind as known through the teaching of His Church; this does not mean, contrary to popular opinion, that when judging that a particular act is evil (and then trying to correct our brothers or sister, or in our accepting the correction of another) that one is then condemning to hell the perpetrator(s) of the evil. Such final judgment is left to God.
 
We don’t know exactly what happened. The branch might have broken, or the rope could have snapped…but something caused him to fall

Acts 1:17b-19

(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
 
The same holds true, William: God never motivates anyone to do evil. His permissive will (as distinct from His perfect will) allows for evil (which He foreknows will occur), evil which, nonetheless, will never overcome His providential plan of salvation. (This article is helpful in seeing the difference between God’s perfect will and His permissive will: mcclare.blogspot.com/2004/08/gods-perfect-will-and-romans-12.html)

One has not been “societised” into seeing Judas’ act as evil; evil is evil and good is good and the distinction is written on the hearts of men.

.
Hi, and thank you for your posting … it has given me much food for thought …

I do not mean to sound “impertinent” or “obtuse”, but another point strikes me here (by way of an analogy):-

On my way to the bus stop to go to university each morning, in 1984, I walked upon on open, rolling stretch of land in which there was a hollow into which the rain would collect after it had been raining … and I noticed that, after the rain, a flock of crows had learned to gather at the hollow and easily “pick up” the worms which had come to the surface to avoid drowning …

Now, for as long as I can remember, if I have ever seen a worm or a snail “stranded” on a concrete path, I have picked it up and put it in the grass, hopefully saving its life …

Seeing the crows on rainy mornings, and coming to understand what they were doing, I felt a certain “compassion” for the worms, and took it upon myself to clap loudly at the crows, frightening them away to another part of the field …

I made this my practice, and, one morning, was musing upon it from the background of studying “the problem of evil”, and I thought of putting mysef in the place of the various players in this, my sometimes almost daily practice.

The worms coming up to avoid drowning, I conjectured, had no way of knowing that they were exposing themselves to the peril of the crows, and so I imagined the place of a worm eaten and a worm not eaten …

The former, I conjectured (admittedly with a high degree of anthropomorphism) would consider the crow eating it to be “evil”, whereas the latter, oblivious to the whole struggle going on around it, was oblivious to the whole episode.

The “eating crow”, I surmised, was not “evil”: it was merely doing what it knew to do to ensure its survival.

Clapping my hands, I imagined the mind of the crows:- “evil man, frightening us away from our food …”

Noticing the crows flying to another part of the field, farther away from me, I also noted that they would land and continue feeding elsewhere …

And: “What of those worms in the other part of the field to which I had frightened the crows?”, I asked myself.

If they had been able to perceive the situation as it unfolded, would they not have felt justified in the conjecture:- “evil man; those crows were away at aonther part of the field, and he has now chased them up to this part to feed on us”…?

I certainly had no evil intent …

Thinking further upon the subject, I came to the opinion that “evil”, of itself, may very well not exist; and that, rather it is the perceived (and necessarily imperfectly perceived when we speak of the ways of God to man) effects of actions which are evil (flooding, to a mudskipper, stranded in a drying up lake is a godsend, whereas to the man, whose fields are, by it, submerged, it is a disaster…).

Bearing this in mind, I have always been strongly of the opinion (and, I believe in agreement with the directive of Jesus Christ, in the Gospels) that it is not mine to attempt to comprehend the motivation behind any act -particularly any perceived “unpleasant” act-, but, rather, trusting that it has been presented to me by God, who seeks only to benefit me, it is mine to accept the act, the actor, and its effects … I must answer to God for my reaction to what is placed before me, and, knowing that of myself, believe the same of every man, so, therefore, I am not in a position to judge why another man has done something, just as I am not able to judge why God has (as the Motivator of all that is) motivated this or that man or this or that situation.

Mine is to react and learn …

“The same holds true, William: God never motivates anyone to do evil…”

I believe I made a response to a similar point earlier on this thread … I, in response, asked the writer to consider the example of the Pharaoh, when Moses wanted him to let the Israelites go free … if I remember correctly, after the first plague, the Pharaoh decided that he would set the Israelites free, but God “hardened” the Pharoah’s heart, and made him refuse Moses’ demands. Was that action not “evil” to the Egyptians?

The answer, I would humbly submit, is “yes”, if we look at it from a “critical analysis” and “conjecture” point of view, but actually “no” when the Bible does not give us this information, and “no” again, when I remind myself that God can do no evil.

To the conjecturer, it could be identified as “evil”, but only because we have a situation of an inferior being attempting to infer (from something it cannot ever fully understand or evaluate) this or that motivation on the part of The Superior Being.

Therefore, I try not to judge (… but, being human, of course, often do not succeed …).

God Bless

William
 
The same holds true, William: God never motivates anyone to do evil. His permissive will (as distinct from His perfect will) allows for evil (which He foreknows will occur), evil which, nonetheless, will never overcome His providential plan of salvation. (This article is helpful in seeing the difference between God’s perfect will and His permissive will: mcclare.blogspot.com/2004/08/gods-perfect-will-and-romans-12.html)

One has not been “societised” into seeing Judas’ act as evil; evil is evil and good is good and the distinction is written on the hearts of men. .
Hello, again, Frances,

one point I neglected to address … I did not, when speaking of “societised” refer to the actions of Judas …

Rather, I was meaning to allude to the situation, particularly in this “mordern” world, wherein, everybody seems to be able to pass judgement on the motivation behind everybody’s each and every action.

Believing God as the motivating factor behind everything (and, in this, I do not deny free will, but, rather say that it is only through the motivating power of God that anything, our reactions as dictated by our own free will included, occurs…), then to imply that we are in a position to fully comprehend another’s actions, seems tantamount to implying (from a point of hopelessly imperfect observation) our own ability to comprehend the mind and actions of God.

(In this context, I mean the word “motivating” as a “setting into motion” or “allowing something to be set into motion”.)

I agree with you when you say that “the distinction is written on the hearts of men”, but feel that it actully makes my point, because who can truly and fully know a man’s heart other than himself and God, (and that, no matter how “obvious” things may appear to the observer?).

And, further, who but God “writes it” there?

Do you see my confusion?

I thank you, once again, for your reply and your points for my pondering.

God Bless

William
 
I have the most profound respect for Judas Iscariot. He had to betray his friend, his teacher, and his lord to guarantee the salvation of the world. What a huge responsibility God chose him for, and what a terrible thing to ask of anyone.
 
I don’t think he had to, he chose to…God gives us all free will, if he had refused I am sure another way would have been found

Mary could have said no, she didn’t…I have profound respect for her, for taking all the sorrows that pierced her heart…Mary was motivated by love…Judas by greed, and anger, possible jealousy…look how he begrudged Christ the ointment Mary Magdalene used on Him…
 
I don’t think he had to, he chose to…God gives us all free will, if he had refused I am sure another way would have been found

Mary could have said no, she didn’t…I have profound respect for her, for taking all the sorrows that pierced her heart…Mary was motivated by love…Judas by greed, and anger, possible jealousy…look how he begrudged Christ the ointment Mary Magdalene used on Him…
But, and thank you for your Scripture reference, when you take it:-

"Acts 1:15 In those days Peter stood up among the brethren (the company of persons was in all about a hundred and twenty), and said,
Acts 1:16 “Brethren, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David, concerning Judas who was guide to those who arrested Jesus.
Acts 1:17 For he was numbered among us, and was allotted his share in this ministry.
Acts 1:18 (Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out.
Acts 1:19 And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their language Akel’dama, that is, Field of Blood.)”

as complimented with:-

“Matthew 27:3 When Judas, his betrayer, saw that he was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders,
Matthew 27:4 saying, “I have sinned in betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.”
Matthew 27:5 And throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself.
Matthew 27:6 But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, “It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since they are blood money.”
Matthew 27:7 So they took counsel, and bought with them the potter’s field, to bury strangers in.
Matthew 27:8 Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day.”

do we not get a picture of Judas as having actually hanged himself, and, could the first of the two quotes not relate to a body roughly disposed of, perhaps thrown headlong into the field, and left without the respect of a “decent burial” after his having hanged himself?

I am not trying to be “smart”, but feel that, so often, when reading, or quoting other people’s readings of, the Bible, we allow misconceptions to proliferate?

For instance, most people, if you ask them why Judas kissed Jesus Christ, will answer “To identify Him”. But Judas kissed Jesus Christ “to BETRAY Him” (a subtle difference, but a difference, when allowed to proliferate through our own inattention to the Bible for ourselves, gives a totally different message…); or

“Money is the root of all evil” … no it’s not: “THE LOVE OF MONEY is the root of all evil”; or

Where did God make man? In the Garden of Eden? no: God TOOK MAN AND PUT HIM in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it; etc., etc.,

I do not, for one second, say that these misconceptions are yours -how presumptuous would that make me?- or everybody’s, but there is, I know, a substantial number of Catholics who are actively unfamiliar with the Bible, and this, I fear, makes the “watering down” of the message contained therein all the more easy (and the Bible itself warns of this situation -and worse- in the end times (which I am more and more coming to believe is “now”), in the Book of Reveation.

God Bless, and thank you again

William
 
The bible is the inspired writing , by the Holy Spirit…Luke wrote the Acts of the Apostles as well as one of the gospels…I am sure he knew what happened…

The fact that I referenced Judas perhaps being given a chance for repentance was suggest in an article I read written by a priest…I didn’t come up with it

You might want to look at this link from the Catholic encyclopedia if you think Judas was just a poor victim of circumstance…He wasn’t he was an active partner in the sin of murder

newadvent.org/cathen/08539a.htm
 
The bible is the inspired writing , by the Holy Spirit…Luke wrote the Acts of the Apostles as well as one of the gospels…I am sure he knew what happened…

The fact that I referenced Judas perhaps being given a chance for repentance was suggest in an article I read written by a priest…I didn’t come up with it

You might want to look at this link from the Catholic encyclopedia if you think Judas was just a poor victim of circumstance…He wasn’t he was an active partner in the sin of murder

newadvent.org/cathen/08539a.htm
Hi,

once again, you imply into my posting something that was not there …

I made no allusion to Judas as “just a poor victimm of circumstance” … (it is not for me, I believe, to judge Judas “poor” or otherwise).

In fact, I thought I had gone to great lengths to make it clear that I do not consider it mine to conjecture about, or to expand on, what is written in the Bible, or what is given of Gods motivation and intentions or to imply or accept implications which are not supported by the text.

And, with the greatest of respect, when you say:- “I didn’t come up with it”, I would ask you whether it is not ours, if we are to truly know what we call our Faith, to look at the source of that Faith for ourselves, rather than just accept (for whatever reason, or from whatever point of perceived “authority”) what another says?

Is it not that, by all means, we should “consider” the views of others, we should be wary in just accepting or adopting them.

On the Day of Judgement, I believe, if we were to offer in plea of mitigation that “He -or she- told me so”, then the question will be asked “and what, then, did you do to check it, before accepting and acting upon it?”

Is it not that “He” of “She” will have to answer for themselves if they lead Gods children astray (remember “it would be better for him that a millstone be placed around his neck …”), but God’s children, nonetheless, will each have to answer for his own reactions to them?

Regards and God Bless

William
 
The poor victim was for Music man who posted that he had great respect for Judas

My friend, Catholics must do 3 things, respect scripture, but it must be Scripture that the magesterium of the church has interpreted, and also that tradition teaches that it is so

We do not take scripture alone as the protestants do…We are not a church that lets everyone interpret things for themsleves…Our clergy have studied the scripture for years before they are allowed to preach and are ordained…If you can’t believe them then you are not going to believe anything taught by the magesterium, which as catholics were compelled to do…WE also must respect tradition and not go against it…These are the 3 things the church requires of us
 
No we have to call sin sin, and not pretend its OK to do certain things because only God judges
We can’t send anyone to hell God does that, and we don’t know who will go to hell, God does

I know evil when I see it…I know it is evil to abort a child, to steal, to slander, and I know it is evil to sell Christ for money

We are going around in circles ,and you won’t change my mind…by their fruits ye shall know them…If we didn’t have a brain we wouldn’t be able to reason…We do have a brain and 10 commandments, breaking them is a sin…sins are evil…You are entitled to your opinion, but it is one I do not share, and dare not for the sake of my soul

I don’t know how clearer I can make my position?
That is not correct. God sends nobody to Hell. Anyone who freely chooses to commit a mortal sin rejects God’s love and condemns themselves to Hell.
 
Whdevo;:
I assume that you are Catholic
That cancels out the person who claimed I wa anti-Catholic.
when the four Canonical Gospels were decided upon, the Gospel of Judas would have been extant, but, for whatever reason, rejected by the Church Fathers, inspired by the Holy Spirit, in favour of the Gospels which were felt to give the most accurate picture of the life of Jesus Christ?
We don’t have a reliable date for when The Gospel of Judas was written.(The Coptic manuscript was carbon dated to 280 AD +/- 60 years — IOW, between 220 and 340 AD.) Whilst the writing style implies a composition date of between 130 and 180 AD, that is by no means definitive.

With the Gospels, we have evidence of them being earlier — arguably, much earlier. As such, it is theoretically possible that the Four Canonical Gospels were deemed as such, prior to the writing of the Gospel of Judas.
I hope that this post will be received in the spirit of enquiry and sincere searching for understanding in which it has been sent
My thinking is that reading texts such as The Gospel of Judas, in an effort to understand more comprehensively waht is to be understood by the Bible, is legitimate.

What is not legitimate is the pop-theology that National Geographic sprouts. A theology that can not be substantiated by anything other than an appeal to suspend critical thinking skills, and accept Post-Modern Marxism, as the one true way.

xan

jonathon
 
Do Catholics believe that Judas is in heaven,since he went to purgatory and worked out his salvation by now?
 
We have no idea that he went to purgatory, and you don’t work out your salvation there…Christ redeemed us, you work out the temporal punishments of the sins you comitted…You do not enter purgatory with a mortal sin on your soul…If you are in the state of mortal sin you go to hell

The church has never made any claims about where Judas went
 
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