Do you ever regret learning about the Mass?

[ProVobis]

Perhaps, but you’re completely speculating now. The reality is liturgical abuse is associated with one form and not the other. I’ve seen people theorize God gave us the Novus Ordo as a vehicle for the rebellious thus protected the TLM by locking it away from them. The faithful have rebelled against God before its just unfortunate so many souls will suffer the eternal consequences.

Precisely. If we are to accept Pope Paul VI and his bishops, then we’ll also have to accept the “smoke of Satan” permeating the sanctuaries of the Church in whatever context he is being referred as/to.

 

[Warrenton]

For our friend in S. Africa sitting through what almost amounts to a parody, I 'll borrow a line from Bill Clinton: “I feel your pain.” Hopefully, as Pregusto, Ockham and many others show, you’re not alone.

When I was younger, and asked wanted to know why I couldn’t worship like my parents, and their parents did, I was made to feel isolated and out of step with the march of time. That was pre internet. Eventually, after many years, I got an old missal and prayed the mass rubrics that were there. Do not let anyone critisize you for that practice: the mass prayers you will be praying are joined to the intentions of the Church just as certainly as whatever may be going on around you, if not more so. You do not need permission to pray what has always been prayed. I wager the celebrants of the clown mass, the ballon mass, and the dance masses didn’t ask anyone’s permission.

Read the Book of Jeremiah and Book of Esther. Read Maccabees. Our forefathers in faith, the Jews, had to witness the defilement and degradation of the Lord’s holy temple. They endured it, and continued praying as they had been taught from old. God knew then that we would have to go through this now. You can do this, do not let wreckers drive you from the mass.

Recall the verse: “Lord, I have loved the habitation of thy abode, and the place where thy honor dwelleth.”

Keep the Faith!

 

[Pregustator]

Precisely. If we are to accept Pope Paul VI and his bishops, then we’ll also have to accept the “smoke of Satan” permeating the sanctuaries of the Church in whatever context he is being referred as/to.

If we are to accept Pope Paul VI and his bishops?

If?

I don’t follow. You say that as if we have an option.

 

[Lormar]

I “endured” for 40 years & it does something to one’s heart. I was born in 1941, so I knew what Mass should be. 28 yrs. of daily Mass had formed me & it was gone in a flash.

Now, however, God & Pope Benedict have given me the Sacrifice of the Mass once again. So, here I am relearning & I LOVE it. If I hadn’t ever learned what the Mass is, I wouldn’t be as JOYFUL as I am now. I have been given back something of great value for I was like the lost sheep. **40 YEARS **of watching abuse & disrespect & posturing & performing…that’s hard when so much of one’s identity is Catholic.

“What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.”

DON’T GIVE UP!!!

I can relate completely to what you have written, but one day I realized that it wasn’t about me and my comfort or preferences (please do not misunderstand me, I am not saying that this is how you are, I am only talking about myself), it was all about Him and His Crucifixion and Calvary. I am not saying that it is easy, and that I do not get angry and frustrated (after all, I am only human [and Catholic too!]), but I try to offer it in atonement for my sins and for the conversion of hearts.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Can you tell me why you think that “truly devout Catholics” seek the EF., while those who are not “truly devout” are perfectly happy sitting through banal & mundane Liturgy?

You made a conclusion on my statement which is not mine. I never claimed that none of the people in the OF are not devout. Many who go to the OF are devout. But since its widely available, you also have bad apples in the basket.

There are many stumbling blocks for most people to go to the EF. Distance, availability, language, etc. Also ratio-and-proportion the size of the population. In our diocese there are only two parishes that offer the OF for a total of 3 Masses on Sundays. One parish alone which offers the OF has 6 Masses and would easily trump the number of people that goes to the EF Masses.

I can ask the same question on why I do not see these devout Roman Catholics coming to Eastern Liturgies and learning more about the faith as many Popes have encouraged us to. Not just because someone doesn’t seek something else doesn’t mean they’re not fed spiritually by the form of Mass they go to. Many people are pefectly happy with the OF and are nourished spiritually by it.

My comment centers on the fact that there is an extra effort to go to an EF Mass and it takes a level of devotion to go there. And these people are more obedient to the disciplines.

 

[Ockham]

Good grief.

People have spent the entire day travelling in order to fulfill their Sunday obligation, some under the threat of execution if caught attending Mass. This mentality that Mass has to be easy to get to is the same as the Holy Communion line has to be like an express drive-through.

This sermon begins with the ‘need Mass to be easy to get’ complaint:

audiosancto.org/au/20070313-Mission-On-Judgement.mp3

 

[ConstantineTG]

A priest ad-libbing the N.O. mass is not unusual. I’ve seen it myself and I don’t go to many. An assumed licence to do this has been granted by the fact of the Mass being re-written and by the subsequent populist accretions.

Assumed by whom? The fact is the Mass has rubrics and if a priest chose to break them, then its not the fault of the form of the Mass. Its not like there’s anything on the Roman Missal that says, “feel free to make up one that sounds like this one.”

The idea was to get the congregation more involved, to remove hierarchial elements and to make it more ‘relevant’ to the times, I think.

Sorry but thats where you’re wrong. The Divine Liturgy is centuries older than the Tridentine Mass and it has twice the congregational involvement than the OF. Mass is not just about the priest and the congregation are just onlookers. As I’ve said before, the pretense that congregational participation in liturgical worship as a modern innovation is completely false.

**A priest ad-libbing the old rite, where no one can hear him, in a foreign language, has a serious problem and so do his parishoners. **

I agree, but if a priest mumbles through inaudible prayers, how can we the laity complain about it? Don’t you think there is more pressure for a priest to get it right when people hear him?

I think having one Sunday TLM in every parish and letting people choose which they want to worship at could help cure the fad for personal expession in the Mass.

I agree with that. Or we could follow the Byzantine Rite where they switch from the DL of St. John to DL of St. Basil on Feast Days. We can have the OF on ordinary days and the EF exclusively in all parishes for Feast Days.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Good grief.

People have spent the entire day travelling in order to fulfill their Sunday obligation, some under the threat of execution if caught attending Mass. This mentality that Mass has to be easy to get to is the same as the Holy Communion line has to be like an express drive-through.

This sermon begins with the ‘need Mass to be easy to get’ complaint:

audiosancto.org/au/20070313-Mission-On-Judgement.mp3

Why do you make it such a bad thing that people can easily go to Mass down the block if they live near a church? If what you’re saying is true, then the Church should have built churches in the middle of nowhere where it takes a good 2 hours drive minimum to get to from the cities.

We live in North America where we enjoy freedom and peace. While it is such an admirable trait that Chaldeans in Iraq go to Holy Qurbana despite fear of persecution from the Muslims, why should we put ourselves in a situation where we are not in? Thats just grandstanding, trying to make a simple issue complicated to make something appear more noble to ourselves or others that going to Liturgy is such a challenge.

 

[Ockham]

Here’s a solution, choy, an EF in every parish.

 

[gentle_atheist]

I seriously doubt that the EF and OF can peacefully co-exist.

 

[Pregustator]

I think the solution to the problem is the passage of about 25 more years.

 

[Ockham]

I seriously doubt that the EF and OF can peacefully co-exist.

I’m willing to give it a try.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I seriously doubt that the EF and OF can peacefully co-exist.

I know a priest who is doing this today. I’m not sure if he celebrates both the OF Masses or just one, but he does celebrate the EF in the afternoon. I don’t think there is a conflict. The OF crowd are not forced into the EF Mass, nor is the EF crowd is forced into the OF Mass. If they’re particular about the form then just go at the appropriate time.

 

[Layman]

I mean that if a priest is making up words in the TLM, where no one can hear him, then demonic influence should be considered.

If Father makes up words in the N.O. well, is it so unusual? I’ve seen some odd things. The Masses I’ve gone to straddle two countries and about four dioceses. Hopefully even the most liberal priest is getting the message that this sort of thing is no longer wanted. God grant us a Pope who will keep up the good work of our current one!

A generation of priests and laypeople think that they can get creative with the N.O. Mass, regardless of what the rubrics or the GIRM say. Bit by bit things have been added to it which were not in line with what the Bishops, who signed off on it, foresaw. **But they helped the revolution along by first daring to authorise a major re-write of the central rite of our religion. **

The nadir for me was seeing a close relative of mine sobbing from the pulpit at a funeral Mass of another close relative. It’s really too much. This, I think, is what happens when people confuse ‘niceness’ with piety. Or when priests try to follow trends and please their flocks too much.

The good thing about it is that those who sincerely want a more personal, easily accessible Mass can attend one easily. If you want a jazzed-up one, they can be found. Hopefully, those who want a more impersonal, quieter one will have a similar level of access to the TLM in due course.

I really don’t care what is or was done in Eastern liturgies. I’m speaking about the Roman Rite, before and after the 1950’s.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I mean that if a priest is making up words in the TLM, where no one can hear him, then demonic influence should be considered.

We should consider this whenever a priest starts caring less about the Liturgy, no matter in what manner he does it.

If Father makes up words in the N.O. well, is it so unusual? I’ve seen some odd things. The Masses I’ve gone to straddle two countries and about four dioceses. Hopefully even the most liberal priest is getting the message that this sort of thing is no longer wanted. God grant us a Pope who will keep up the good work of our current one!

I’ve seen many abuses but none that priests intentionally change words. Most errors I’ve seen where unintentional. I can imagine the same thing happening no matter the form of Mass. Priests are people as well, God if forgiving as long as there was no intention to break rubrics.

A generation of priests and laypeople think that they can get creative with the N.O. Mass, regardless of what the rubrics or the GIRM say. Bit by bit things have been added to it which were not in line with what the Bishops, who signed off on it, foresaw. **But they helped the revolution along by first daring to authorise a major re-write of the central rite of our religion. **

The nadir for me was seeing a close relative of mine sobbing from the pulpit at a funeral Mass of another close relative. It’s really too much. This, I think, is what happens when people confuse ‘niceness’ with piety. Or when priests try to follow trends and please their flocks too much.

The good thing about it is that those who sincerely want a more personal, easily accessible Mass can attend one easily. If you want a jazzed-up one, they can be found. Hopefully, those who want a more impersonal, quieter one will have a similar level of access to the TLM in due course.

I really don’t care what is or was done in Eastern liturgies. I’m speaking about the Roman Rite, before and after the 1950’s.

Appreciation of the Eastern traditions bring about fulness of faith. Many Popes has spoken about this. Why do you think the Roman tradition should exclude participation when the East has valued it a lot? I haven’t research the history of the Roman Mass so much to know what the Mass was like pre-Tridentine, but I suspect that congregational participation in liturgy was pretty standard throughout the entire Church both East and West in the first millenium. I’ve been to two different Rites besides the Roman Rite and have seen plenty of participation in both.

 

[Ockham]

"Notice: RE Eastern vs. Traditional RC rites

---

Quote:
Notice:

This forum is intended for discussion of Traditional Roman Catholic liturgy, practices, and spirituality. It is not intended for discussion of Eastern Catholic liturgy, practices, and spirituality (or for arguing for the presumed superiority of Eastern Catholicism to Traditional Roman Catholicism). Those wishing to discuss Eastern Catholicism must do so in the Eastern Catholicism forum, and not in this forum. Anyone violating this directive will be banned from the Traditional Catholicism forum and will be subject to the possibility of having his account permanently closed.

Please note further that this directive is not open for debate. Any use of this thread for arguments against this directive will be subject to the same discipline outlined above."

Jo Benedict
Super Moderator

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=429527

 

[Layman]

The good thing about the TLM is that your peace is not disturbed. Whether the priest is saying the words properly or not is up to him and the MC. It’s also in a foreign language. Long stretches are quiet. The personality and dress of those in the sanctuary is erased. You can participate interiorly as much as you want. Or not.

It’s also humbling. You are put in your proper place and so is the priest.

Never thought as a lad I’d ever really enjoy Mass. Funny.

 

[ConstantineTG]

"Notice: RE Eastern vs. Traditional RC rites

---

Quote:
Notice:

This forum is intended for discussion of Traditional Roman Catholic liturgy, practices, and spirituality. It is not intended for discussion of Eastern Catholic liturgy, practices, and spirituality (or** for arguing for the presumed superiority of Eastern Catholicism to Traditional Roman Catholicism**). Those wishing to discuss Eastern Catholicism must do so in the Eastern Catholicism forum, and not in this forum. Anyone violating this directive will be banned from the Traditional Catholicism forum and will be subject to the possibility of having his account permanently closed.

Please note further that this directive is not open for debate. Any use of this thread for arguments against this directive will be subject to the same discipline outlined above."

Jo Benedict
Super Moderator

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=429527

Highlight is mine. I encourage experiencing Eastern Liturgies for better appreciation and understanding the Catholic faith better, not for pitting East vs. West. Can you point where made any claim that Eastern Liturgies are better than the Roman Mass? Because I can’t recall ever making such claim.

Besides, denigrating the OF is also against the rules. I wonder why you don’t bring that up as often?

 

[malphono]

Appreciation of the Eastern traditions bring about fulness of faith. Many Popes has spoken about this.

Yes, but is that really an issue in this thread?

Why do you think the Roman tradition should exclude participation when the East has valued it a lot? I haven’t research the history of the Roman Mass so much to know what the Mass was like pre-Tridentine, but I suspect that congregational participation in liturgy was pretty standard throughout the entire Church both East and West in the first millenium. I’ve been to two different Rites besides the Roman Rite and have seen plenty of participation in both.

In the first place, they are different traditions. The operative word there is “different” meaning they are not the same. In the second place, what you hallow as “participation” in the East is quite different from what is meant and practiced in the OF. It’s more like the “participation” in the EF “High Mass” which is not, contrary to some common opinions on the matter, limited to the choir.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Yes, but is that really an issue in this thread?

I agree it is not. But whenever the East is brought out some people seem to have an allergic reaction to it. We should embrace the entirety of our faith and appreciate that the traditions are not in competition against one another, but complementary.

In the first place, they are different traditions. The operative word there is “different” meaning they are not the same. In the second place, what you hallow as “participation” in the East is quite different from what is meant and practiced in the OF. It’s more like the “participation” in the EF “High Mass” which is not, contrary to some common opinions on the matter, limited to the choir.

But that is exactly what they mean. That in the EF most people sit and shut their mouth and follow along with their eyes in the Missal. From what I understand in the OF is that in fact we are returning to an older tradition which can be seen reflected from Eastern Liturgies which are older. But I can’t conclusively say that with what I know, I just read that claim but haven’t read any material about older forms of the Roman Mass.