Do you fear death?

[tonyrey]

So you believe Christ’s self-sacrifice on the Cross was a waste of time for the vast majority of men, women and children?

From a human point of view His sacrifice wouldn’t have achieved anything. A waste of unselfish love would be a more accurate description. His suffering would have been in vain and useless as far as countless people are concerned.

I do not pretend to understand the mind of God. I do not know what He would think is a waste. Mostly I just repeat what I find various priests, theologians and other commentators saying online, or what they say that various saints have said.
I could report an instance of the opposite, I could report that the modern mystic, the still living Lorna Byrne has said, that while she believes in hell and Satan, and that God has let Satan draw near to her and that she was frightened almost to death, that she sees angels, that she has seen plenty of peoples’ souls when they depart, that she has seen quite a number of people die, and she has never yet seen anybody being sent to hell. She is not held in high esteem on CAF though, ergo, up until this point I have only spoken of her in a very few private pms to people.

Mystics are not infallible nor would they would see anyone sent to hell because it isn’t God who punishes them. They punish themselves by rejecting His love and choosing to be independent.

On a personal note, I find it much easier to believe in my own damnation than in my salvation. I don’t know why. Perhaps it is just my depression.

I’m sure it is because the fact that you don’t want to be damned demonstrates that you’re not evil!

I have to say that I find the confidence that so many people here seem to have in their own salvation to be somewhat surprising. I am more than a little flummoxed and taken aback by it.

It is because they realise how much God loves us and after we die we’ll have an opportunity to make amends for our sins in Purgatory.

There is a common logical error that many people make:

Another example occurs in the film The Matrix. There Neo is asked  whether he believes in fate; he says that he doesn’t. He is then asked  why, and replies, “I don’t like the thought that I’m not in control.”  This is not an appeal to evidence, but to the unpleasantness of  believing in fate: Fate would imply that the world is a way that I don’t  want it to be, therefore there is no such thing.

From: logicalfallacies.info/rel…-consequences/

The difference is that Christians believe Jesus died for us…

God has infinite power; He might not consider 5/30,000 or 3/60,000 to be “wasteful”. Indeed, maybe it’s a “bargain”, whatever that is to Somebody with infinite power . . .

As Pontius Pilate asked, “What is truth?” Is it just a gut check? If so, then I guess I’m as guilty as the next party, except that my gut often seems to want to run in the opposite direction to what other people seem to want. Or is it something else, other better people’s (better than me at any rate) revelations, science, logic, church tradition?

I dunno . . . mostly I just end up praying to God for help . . .

It would be far better if you begin by praying to God for help - and not as a last resort - and remember those sublime words of St Paul:

31 What shall we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us? 32 Since he did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won’t he also give us everything else? 33 Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one—for God himself has given us right standing with himself. 34 Who then will condemn us? No one—for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God’s right hand, pleading for us.

35 Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? 36 (As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.”a]) 37 No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.
38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,(“Romans 8:31-39 NLT - Nothing Can Separate Us from God’s - Bible Gateway”)] neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord**.

 

[Vonsalza]

Me too, except for the prayer and Heaven part.

I’ve often wondered how an atheist explains their anecdotal spiritualism without running afoul of the same bases on which they refuse the reality of God…

 

[ANV]

I’ve often wondered how an atheist explains their anecdotal spiritualism without running afoul of the same bases on which they refuse the reality of God…

You don’t have to believe in spirits to be “spiritual”, it can be refered to wonder, energy, life, universe, nature, not necessarly supernatural things.
youtu.be/i2nfXfTg92E

Note to add in my own opinion: Life can be good and beautiful but it is often not, and with all it’s beauty it is not worthy the suffering that exists.

 

[tonyrey]

You don’t have to believe in spirits to be “spiritual”, it can be refered to wonder, energy, life, universe, nature, not necessarly supernatural things.
youtu.be/i2nfXfTg92E

Note to add in my own opinion: Life can be good and beautiful but it is often not, and with all it’s beauty it is not worthy the suffering that exists.

So you believe it would be better if life had never existed on this planet and wish you, your family and friends hadn’t been born?

 

[egretps]

You don’t have to believe in spirits to be “spiritual”, it can be refered to wonder, energy, life, universe, nature, not necessarly supernatural things.
youtu.be/i2nfXfTg92E

Note to add in my own opinion: Life can be good and beautiful but it is often not, and with all it’s beauty it is not worthy the suffering that exists.

People may have mentioned this, but this was what drove Buddha to found a new religion.

I have physically suffered, and not nearly as much as many. The worst suffering is the unnecessary suffering, inflicted upon others or the anxiety of anticipating or worrying about suffering to come either through physical pain or loss.

We live in a fallen world, there is a better one to come. Our job here is to alleviate as much of it as we can thorough Truth, Justice, Mercy, and Trust to start.

 

[Robert_Sock]

So you believe it would be better if life had never existed on this planet and wish you, your family and friends hadn’t been born?

If you take a real good look around you, you will know that there must be a much more intelligent world somewhere above us, perhaps Heaven! How could this world have advanced so greatly in just a few hundred years without it? I very often wish I never was born into this lowly world.

 

[Tigre]

Are you afraid of dying, is it strange that I am not afraid of dying, maybe I would be afraid and escape of a natural danger when it occurs, just as a natural feeling and reaction, but in general as my mind does speak, I don’t fear death, not even a bit, does anyone else feel that way? Do you think it would be different when you grow older?

I don’t believe you. You are afraid. That is why you are still here. If you truly believed life is meaningless and full of suffering, and there is no afterlife, then there would be no rational basis for you not to check out early. I don’t think you really believe that though. And that doubt is the basis for your fear. Remember, God is looking for you.

 

[tonyrey]

So you believe it would be better if life had never existed on this planet and wish you, your family and friends hadn’t been born?

So you agree with Schopenhauer that it would be better if life had never existed on this planet and wish you, your family and friends hadn’t been born here on earth because the Creator has made an appalling blunder?

 

[BrunoMaria]

Of course it would not have been better “if life had never existed on this planet!” You might well see even heavy blasphemy in suchlike imposition!
For he who thinks it would have been better, reproaches God for His Grace creating humans in His likeness, to have as many as possible sharing His Kingdom. The opposite of avariciousness and greediness.
Let me summarize the causes, reasons and consequences in telegraphic style:

Before all creation, God had Himself and all beauty and comfort thinkable he had made for Himself. Then after aeons, God created heaven, and the Angels to share all this in heaven with Him. It where angelic hosts. After again aeons of peace and harmony one of their mighty leaders, Arch-Angel Lucifer the Light-carrier, wanted more. He desired to be like God. He made his legions wanting to be like God and first war in all the universe arose, with Arch-Angel Michael leading the faithful and loyal legions under His command.

They defeated Lucifer’s legions, who therefore then where banned off heaven and cast down to earth, where there where no humans yet. Match Luke 10,18: Christ replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven“. Much later the Hell was created for a renewed earth for us. Same as after judgement day, a new heaven and a new earth will be created (Revelation 21:1)

Later God out of love to the unborn and not yet existing angel-like humans, created them, in His likeness - same as Angels, though with a body, to be able to stand in the matter of the earth. Same as we can stay alive in the deep sea - if we got a diving suit. Our body is the diving suit needed here on earth, and left behind when we go home to God - where we even where known before we were born. Match Jeremia 1:5; »

God gave these first humans the chance to live without sin in Paradise, but they fell for Satan’s temptation - and sin such came into the world (Romans 5,12-21). Therefore they where banned off Paradise and cast out on the rough earth, with all it’s problems, such as Genesis 3,19: By the sweat of your brow you will eat food until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you will return.”

Now, as we all know, Jesus Christ out of His free will, voluntarily experienced all this to save us off the murky puddle of our sins - the sweat, the thorns of torture, the shameful death on the cross, dust of death. So much God loved us that He… John 3,16
Then to say “I very often wish I never was born into this lowly world“ is to flout on God’s love He gave you as a huge present of love - so you too might share His Kingdom together with God, in all eternity.
Wiill you really say into God’s face: I wish You had never given me this chance!? That’s like giving your Son all you got including your life, and he says: „Ah - keep your bloody treasures - I flout it”.

Yours
Bruno

 

[meltzerboy]

Funny how everybody thinks *they *are going to heaven, but other people aren’t.

I don’t really believe that is true. Most of us do not presume we are going to heaven, but we trust in the love and mercy of G-d. Insofar as others are concerned, I likewise don’t believe most of us are preoccupied with judging their eternal souls.

 

[BrunoMaria]

I don’t really believe that is true. Most of us do not presume we are going to heaven, but we trust in the love and mercy of G-d. Insofar as others are concerned, I likewise don’t believe most of us are preoccupied with judging their eternal souls.

Not even one answer to my detailed rebuke of "I very often wish I never was born into this lowly world“ and even "if life had never existed on this planet!“

Do all agree here to my refute? That would be first time

But as to the quoted answer:
As I often talk to strangers about belief, I ever so often was asked; if I really believe that I go to heaven. My answer always is a firm YES OF COURSE! This is founded in the Gospel and Jesus’ Doctrine.
Why do you think deep believers do belief deeply? Indeed because they truly "are preoccupied with judging their eternal souls“.

The most important concern to anybody is - what will be with me after this life here? A thought even prehistoric people drove, when they worshiped their strange and inexisting gods.
Buddhists and atheists think they go like any plant or animal into the „nowhere“. Christians know, that they got an eternal life. Since eternity is longer than our life here, we of course are strongly concerned what will be with me then, where do I go. Heaven, Purgatory, Hell. We of course got in contrary to disbelievers, a strong help: The answer provides the Gospel - among many others, in Mark 16:16

Btw: It’s not my soul I’m concerned about, but rather the very self - the very I. For we ARE the soul; not the body. Our body is (as I above tried to explain) just our diving suit - not we ourselves. A dog would think that this diving suit he sees and barks at, is the guy. He’s not. So, let’s not mistake our body for the very self of us. We are the soul.

Yours
Bruno

 

[Lost_Sheep]

Belief in an imperfect God raises more problems than it solves. He wouldn’t be eternal but finite and limited in both power and knowledge. So how did He originate and what restricts His activity?

I’m not sure I follow what you are saying.

 

[BrunoMaria]

Let me refer once again to the objection:
"Most of us do not presume we are going to heaven, but we trust in the love and mercy of G-d.“

If we trust God, we know God - else we wouldn’t trust. We don’t trust and have faith in some“thing“ unknown. Well, some do. Meditative atheists do, Buddhism does, the ancient Greek did with their altar for the unknown God (Acts 17,23) - many do. Not so Christians. We do not trust in the love and mercy of an unknown God, but in the love and mercy of The, to us ever so familiar GOD, who Himself personally revealed Himself to us. First Himself to Noah and others, and much later to Abraham and Moses. Then again approx. 2000 years later, Himself again in the „shape“ of Jesus Christ.
I tried to find another word for SHAPE - don’t know another word.
But as Jesus said: I and the Father are one. Now in biblical explanations, it tells: The phrase is neuter, not masculine, so the assertion is not that Jesus and the Father are one person, but one “thing.” Identity of the two persons is not what is asserted unity of essence <but essential unity .>
So; to many it’s hard to comprehend, but the truth is; that God Himself in flesh was amidst us to save and teach us. It’s sort of excusable, if many simply can’t grasp these facts, but then they must not instead push such insights away off them, for they in fact are obvious.

Hence, and because of what Jesus often repeated, we got a certainty about our eternal future we can’t deny. So - why is supposed, that most do NOT presume that we go to heaven?
I myself for one, am sure of it - even thought I’m anything but a Saint and didn’t deserve it. But neither did I deserve condemnation I’m sure. So what’s the alternative? Purgatory - yes - but that is sureness of heaven too.

Since all this is one of the most absolute certainties we got, and the one and only real consolation we have too, it’s only natural that we presume we are going to heaven and think about it every day in prayers.

Yours
Bruno

 

[goout]

You don’t have to believe in spirits to be “spiritual”, it can be refered to wonder, energy, life, universe, nature, not necessarly supernatural things.
youtu.be/i2nfXfTg92E

Give us evidence for what you call “wonder”.
I mean real evidence. And don’t point to some nebulous superstitious concept.
Give us real physical proof that wonder exists.

 

[Elf01]

Btw: It’s not my soul I’m concerned about, but rather the very self - the very I. For we ARE the soul; not the body. Our body is (as I above tried to explain) just our diving suit - not we ourselves. A dog would think that this diving suit he sees and barks at, is the guy. He’s not. So, let’s not mistake our body for the very self of us. We are the soul.

Yours
Bruno

Not Catholic teaching. We are both body and soul.

365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p6.htm#II

 

[meltzerboy]

Not even one answer to my detailed rebuke of "I very often wish I never was born into this lowly world“ and even "if life had never existed on this planet!“

Do all agree here to my refute? That would be first time

But as to the quoted answer:
As I often talk to strangers about belief, I ever so often was asked; if I really believe that I go to heaven. My answer always is a firm YES OF COURSE! This is founded in the Gospel and Jesus’ Doctrine.
Why do you think deep believers do belief deeply? Indeed because they truly "are preoccupied with judging their eternal souls“.

The most important concern to anybody is - what will be with me after this life here? A thought even prehistoric people drove, when they worshiped their strange and inexisting gods.
Buddhists and atheists think they go like any plant or animal into the „nowhere“. Christians know, that they got an eternal life. Since eternity is longer than our life here, we of course are strongly concerned what will be with me then, where do I go. Heaven, Purgatory, Hell. We of course got in contrary to disbelievers, a strong help: The answer provides the Gospel - among many others, in Mark 16:16

Btw: It’s not my soul I’m concerned about, but rather the very self - the very I. For we ARE the soul; not the body. Our body is (as I above tried to explain) just our diving suit - not we ourselves. A dog would think that this diving suit he sees and barks at, is the guy. He’s not. So, let’s not mistake our body for the very self of us. We are the soul.

Yours
Bruno

When I wrote that people are not preoccupied with judging their eternal souls, I was referring to judging the eternal souls of OTHERS, not their own.

 

[BrunoMaria]

The answer we are both, body and soul, indeed is right. RCC teaches: „not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature“. We all undoubtedly know this.

A vast majority though, does not realize this fact, but holds that we are body only. All „this talk“ about body AND soul, is vehemently controverted. Refuted by „realists“- those who doubt God. RCC to them (who form the majority) is anyhow void and just a presumption of a minority. So, in our everyday talks to average people we hardly know, but just accidentally meet in social gatherings, we can never argue: „RCC says such and such“. They would simply not understand, smile indulgently and all our talk is for nothing.

Believing Christians however do know what’s meant, when we say we are our soul - not our body. They also know, that we leave our body behind us - as waist which will rot away, when we as our full being - our soul, go to be judged, respectively enter heaven.

St. Paul even speaks of a triunity (similar to God’s Trinity) when he preaches of spirit and soul and body in his letter to the Thessalonians in 1Th 5,23.
If you google „spirit and soul and body“ - you get lots of more or less substantial explanations - depending if by Christians or others.
Christ though spoke of body and soul in Mt 10:28 Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

Though we do know the facts - which all the same had been disputed within the Church, as the Gospel in very many verses emphasizes that we are to save our souls instead of our body. In Job 33,18: Rescuing his soul from corruption, and his body from death. (Death also translated as „from the sword, or „crossing the river"). Here we hear much sharp distinction. The body will die - the soul can not die. Not even the soul of disbelieving evildoers.

It’s clear to anyone, that we got our body to get along in earthly matter, but leave it back when we go to God. Hence it’s secondary, and it becomes just dust again. We think with our soul (spirit), as mentioned in Lamentations 3,20: my soul shall languish within me - but „me“ here too includes both body and soul.

But let’s return to the New Testament, which is - as we now have Jesus’ teaching - much more distinctive and putting certain things straight. Here we again got among many samples, even Jesus Christ Himself, who says in John 12,27: Now My soul is troubled… A truth predicted by Simeon, who says about the just 8-days old Baby-Jesus in Luke 2,35: And thy own soul a sword shall pierce…. This figurative language pictures great pain of the body, but names the soul - for here in the world our soul is still encapsulated in our body.
Jesus again too more or less neglected the body and said in Mt 11,29 Take my yoke…… and you will find rest for your souls.

Now last but by no means least for there are bags of verses all aimed at our souls only, look at Paul who said in Hebr 4,12: For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any double-edged sword, piercing even to the point of dividing soul from spirit, and joints from marrow; it is able to judge the desires and thoughts of the heart.
Now St. Paul here even divides soul (the WE and I itself) and spirit; which is what we think - which was at any time placed in the heart.
Now we all know, that this comparatively simple hollow muscle „heart“ doesn’t think, but is part of the functioning body. Here we’ve come full circle. We are the soul - not the body, which we leave behind us when we leave earthly live and enter eternal life.

I often heard the argument: The brain is our body too. We think with it and we feel with it - as well pain, as emotion. Hence, there is no such thing as soul, we are the body that’s all. But then to argue with atheists or gnostics is anyhow useless in most cases. One very young atheist even told me: I’m proud to be an atheist!

To all this we got a further great sermon of St. Paul, in Hebrews 5,11 to Hebrew 6,20 where he speaks of our „steadfast anchor for our soul“.

Yours
Bruno