Do you fear that you may go to Hell?

  • Thread starter Thread starter dronald
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The most simple way of understanding the doctrine of Faith and Works, is that when works are attributed to our justification, it is ONLY in the context that they are a completion of faith. This means that the very work which has a participation in our justification, is the obedience to faith, as opposed to believing but not following.

Paul expresses this concept in different ways, but nevertheless he does express it.

For example:

1 Timothy 5
Command this, so that they may be without reproach.8If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.Notice, he does not say that such a person does not believe, but that by not doing what faith requires, a person can be in a worse state than one who does not believe at all! So by not doing the deeds of faith, faith is actually disowned.

This is all that the doctrine of Faith and Works is about. It is not basing justification on works, as though one is able to fulfill the Law of Works and be worthy of eternal life. Jesus and the grace that came through His obedience for our sake, is what put us into a state of justification before God. Believing this, means knowing that we were saved from death, no matter how much good work we could do, since we do not naturally have the strength of the Spirit over the flesh. Jesus destroyed the power of the flesh with the Spirit.
 
hazcompat said:
All is grace.

Peace
Click to expand...
Yes it is, I agree 100% and this is good, lets take this one step further.

I have 2 questions and I would love to hear LatinRights answer to them (just yes or no) as well as yours

1 Can this grace be resisted/rejected ? (if no then skip question 2)

2 Do we need to respond to this grace ?
 
ajcstr said:
Yes it is, I agree 100% and this is good, lets take this one step further.

I have 2 questions and I would love to hear LatinRights answer to them (just yes or no) as well as yours

1 Can this grace be resisted/rejected ? (if no then skip question 2)

2 Do we need to respond to this grace ?
Click to expand...
Blessings Ajcstr.
  1. Yes.
  2. Yes. I respond to God’s grace not because have to but because I love to.
If I could respond to 100 % to God’s grace I would be perfect right now.

But I can’t respond to 100 %. I only can do my best. - Not even always.

For me to have to respond to God’s grace is not exist because I love to respond

to God’s grace even when I don’t. - I’m not yet perfect.

Blessings

LatinRight.
 
Blessings Ajcstr.
  1. Yes.
  2. Yes. I respond to God’s grace not because have to but because I love to.
If I could respond to 100 % to God’s grace I would be perfect right now.

But I can’t respond to 100 %. I only can do my best. - Not even always.

For me to have to respond God’s grace is not exist because I love to respond

to God’s grace even when I can’t or don’t. - I’m not yet perfect.

Blessings

LatinRight.
 
Blessings Ajcstr and Rcwitness,

**I read carefully both of your posts.

In general I agree what you have written, but I feel we don’t interpret the written words in

the same way.

The Catholic Church has excellent teachings on salvation.

Some Catholics has a real fear of hell.

I Believe if they would study the following teachings of the Catholic Church, the following

teachings would free up their spirits from the fear of hell.

For me the following teachings of the RCC was great help to understand salvation and

completely set me free from the fear of hell and greatly increased my faith in God.

The way I interpret your posts based on the following teachings.

If you would read and meditate on the following teachings might be good help to understand our posts.

In general my knowledge of salvation is based on the following teachings and really set my spirit free.**

**The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level

of binding theological certainty).**

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect

**Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.**
End quote Emphasize added.

**CCC 1994 “… It is the opinion of St. Augustine that "the justification of the wicked is a

greater work than the creation of heaven and earth," because "heaven and earth will pass

away but the salvation and justification of the elect … will not pass away. …”**

Continue
 
**Quote: St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:

[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him

and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . . that he may be kept from evil

TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)

This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of "That Great and Special Gift of

Final Perseverance," and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of "the gift of perseverance of

which it is written:

‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’

Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who

stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]."

Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final

perseverance always works.

Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “the gift of final perseverance.”

The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance. [43] Aquinas (and

even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere. [44] Aquinas

said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”

Aquinas said the gift of final perseverance is “the abiding in good to the end of life.

In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and

guarding him against the attacks of the passions…” **End quote

Quote:
**“AUGUSTINE’S CONTRIBUTION TO OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.

We are inserted into the Body of Christ by our baptism and become members united to

the Head, so that while our feet may be on earth we are already in heaven.” End quote. ** – Col.1:13; Eph.2:6.

The above quote taken from a letter of Paul Maloney OSA Written

AskACatholic.com

What is Catholic view on predestination?

**This is an often confusing and difficult subject to address.

The bottom line is that the Catholic Church does teach that the ELECT ARE PREDESTINED,

while concomitantly, free will is respected so that God is not involved with coercion.

The best way to explain this is that God has foreknowledge of ALL those that would RESPOND to his gift of self.

While He wills all to be saved (cf. 1 Timothy 2:3), NOT ALL accept Him (also, John 1:11-12).

In addition to this foreknowledge, God also has provided **ALL THE GRACE NECESSARY **for those to be saved.

In this way, He has DETERMINED their salvation: by INSURING it.

So, in the end, God not only knows who will be saved, He “saw to it” that they were saved,

and respected the free will of those who were not. End quote. Emphasize added.**

Continue
 
CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS (OUR DEEDS) COUNT FOR ANYTHING

Conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.

**The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its object, intent, and circumstances. **

**It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY. **

It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin

**Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT

BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER

LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings

out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND** of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the **ONLY

KIND** that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier

Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan

Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985

Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become RIGHTEOUS and be SAVED?

We NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.

Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

**JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION

by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church

3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts

as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.

4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in

Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is

NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.

4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For

without faith, no justification can take place. Thus justifying grace never becomes a

human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying

grace, this RENEVAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s

unfathomable grace and contributes NOTHING to JUSTIFICATION.

4/37 We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love -

FOLLOW JUSTIFICATION and ARE ITS FRUITS. Emphasize mine.

I like you have your view on the above teachings of the Church Rcwitness, and Ajcstr.

Of course welcome the view of every member of the CAF.**

Blessings

LatinRight
 
LatinRight said:
Blessings Ajcstr.
  1. Yes.
  2. Yes. I respond to God’s grace not because have to but because I love to.
LatinRight.
Click to expand...
Ok, you were sounding a little reformed (not that I have anything against that) but just wanted to clarify.

But I will say we still have a difference here because if you did not respond to grace (for whatever reason) would you still maintain your justification?

I understand that you personally are responding out of love rather than out of fear but what would happen if you had NO response. And I am assuming here that the response is through good works.
 
dronald said:
I’m interested in opinions from all Religions.

Do you ever think that you may not make it to Heaven based on the tenants of your Religion, or are you sure that you will go to Heaven?
Click to expand...
when your father PROMISES he will not leave you stranded at soccer practice…

and your Father has never broken his promise…

and in fact your father is actually incapable of breaking a promise (your father has the resources to overcome every possible scenario)
and you believe your father’s promises

do you fear that you will be stranded at soccer practice?
 
alwayswill said:
when your father PROMISES he will not leave you stranded at soccer practice…

and your Father has never broken his promise…

and in fact your father is actually incapable of breaking a promise (your father has the resources to overcome every possible scenario)
and you believe your father’s promises

do you fear that you will be stranded at soccer practice?
Click to expand...
No, unless I walk over to the 7-11 instead and expect to be picked up there.
 
ajcstr said:
No, unless I walk over to the 7-11 instead and expect to be picked up there.
Click to expand...
That’s the point. It’s similar to the parable of the ten virgins. We aren’t afraid that God is not faithful, but stand in fear and trembling when we struggle to repent of faithless ways.
 
ajcstr said:
No, unless I walk over to the 7-11 instead and expect to be picked up there.
Click to expand...
“and in fact your father is actually incapable of breaking a promise (your father has the resources to overcome every possible scenario)
and you believe your father’s promises”

IOW your father promised something will happen and it may not happen?
is that your view?
 
rcwitness said:
That’s the point. It’s similar to the parable of the ten virgins. We aren’t afraid that God is not faithful, but stand in fear and trembling when we struggle to repent of faithless ways.
Click to expand...
I understand that viewpoint:

The freewill of man is greater than (over rides) the promises and will of the Father.

but I reject that viewpoint.
 
alwayswill said:
IOW your father promised something will happen and it may not happen?
is that your view?
Click to expand...
I think ajcstr’s response was very good. God did not promise that He will save us if we disobey His commandments. “Going to the 7-11” would be the equivalent of disobeying a commandment.

Getting back from the 7-11 to the place where Dad was going to pick up may be difficult. But a phone call (prayer) can let Him know you are returning.
 
alwayswill said:
“and in fact your father is actually incapable of breaking a promise (your father has the resources to overcome every possible scenario)
and you believe your father’s promises”

IOW your father promised something will happen and it may not happen?
is that your view?
Click to expand...
NO but I stray frequently and as a Catholic I believe sin separates us from God and fractures our relationship. If my father’s plan is to pick me up at school and I walk over to the 7-11 I have strayed from that plan.

One homily I heard once really drove it home when the priest said people always tell him “It’s ok father, God will understand.” His response if “Yes, God understands, but do YOU understand?”

God’s promises are to the faithful and I am not always faithful. And I disagree with LatinRight in that I believe Paul teaches that we WILL be cut off if we are not faithful. And that to me is a promise to be considered just as strongly as the promise you speak of.

Everyone always tries to match James 2 to Romans 3, I think James 2 and Romans 11 is a better match.
 
alwayswill said:
I understand that viewpoint:

The freewill of man is greater than (over rides) the promises and will of the Father.

but I reject that viewpoint.
Click to expand...
But Jesus tells us we can enter through the narrow door or follow the wide path that leads to destruction. The promises of the Father are to the faithful.

The will of the Father? I keep going back to Ephesians 2 that we are “created for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them”
 
ajcstr said:
But Jesus tells us we can enter through the narrow door or follow the wide path that leads to destruction. The promises of the Father are to the faithful.

The will of the Father? I keep going back to Ephesians 2 that we are “created for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them”
Click to expand...
Ephesians 2:8
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–

can those who have NOT received the gift of faith from God go through the narrow gate?
can those who have received the gift of faith from God NOT go through the narrow gate?

Romans 8:29-30
For those whom He foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.​

note: who is dong the action in the above verses…

Was every person whom God will glorify also justified by God?
Was every person whom God will justify also called by God?
Was every person whom God will call also predestined by God?

Here is the big question:
Is their anyone who was predestined to glory** by God** that God will not glorify?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top