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drac16
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I don’t know what I’m going to do. Just wait and see, I guess.
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rcwitness
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Consider this instruction from Paul in 1 Timothy 5
7 Command this, so that they may be without reproach. 8 If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
Can one disown something he did not own to begin with? Can someone be worse than an unbeliever who is not a believer who was sanctified?
I dont think we disagree that some have believed, yet not necessarily unto salvation. But then, what constitutes that necessity. We would say a perseverence, and a suffering with, and a following the Deposit of Faith to the amount that has been revealed to the person. The initial justification is a free gift and is never earned afterwards either. But is upheld through faith and works unto salvation. This is also all by the gifts of His feeding us. He provides the grace and love which holds us together and completes His will in our lives.
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rcwitness
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dronald
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I think this is a great thread for conversations like this one; and it’s kind of why I put it in the Non-Catholic area, so people can discuss differences, why, and how they differ. So I don’t think you’re derailing it; it’s rather interesting.
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JRKH
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Thanks dronald - then I shall expound just a bit.
Having been involved in a number of discussions on whether one can lose their salvation, it has become very evident to me that, while the idea of predestination might a valid one at the theoretical level, it is really rather useless at the practical level.
The bottom line is that one cannot truly know if they are until they die and are
judged.
The argument that those who fall away were never really saved in the first place does not answer two questions.
- Who (other than God) knew they weren’t really saved BEFORE they fell away
- Who can say that the one who fell away (because they weren’t really saved) won’t come back later (proving that they WERE really saved all along?
God surely knows… but we mortals do not. We can have confidence and even assurance…but this must always with an edge of caution lest we be one of those who, “went out from us because they were never really one of us…”
Just some thoughts.
Peace
James
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benjohnson
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We Lutherans will have it bad - there’s a joke that “Protestants will spend twice the time in Purgatory, just to prove that it exists.”Yup. I am HOPING to make it to purgatory
For myself, I diserve hell - but I’m thankful that it will be Him who judges me. For He is mercy and love.
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kozlosap
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Ben - Your answer about deserving hell, but thankful for the mercy of the Lord, is so short and TRUE! I think I will file this away for future use, especially when speaking with those of different faith traditions. Thank you!!We Lutherans will have it bad - there’s a joke that “Protestants will spend twice the time in Purgatory, just to prove that it exists.”
For myself, I diserve hell - but I’m thankful that it will be Him who judges me. For He is mercy and love.
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Jeanne_S
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Yes,definitely a good insurance policy!
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nms553
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Ask God to help you. He’s waiting for you to just reach out to him. He doesn’t want you to “figure it out on your own”.
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nms553
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Yup.
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him,
were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
who is the guarantee of our inheritance
until we acquire possession of it
- Ephesians 1:13-14
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openmind77
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Since you ask from all religions:
As a Hindu, I believe hell and heaven are temporary places which we go to between lives before taking birth again in a new human body. Although temporary, you still don’t go to hell for trivial reasons (like using contraceptives), only for very grave crimes (like murder), so I am not worried about going to hell. I am a bit concerned about purgatory - that can be pretty hard too.
BTW, there is another kind of ‘hell’ (or more like ‘limbo’) that Christianity does not talk about - At a certain point in your cycle of reincarnation (death and rebirth), you may be deemed to be too backward and slow in your spiritual developed (to use a metaphor from Mathew 25 - a goat rather than a sheep) . In that case, you can be put into a state like limbo until the next cycle of the earth’s evolution (like being suspended for a year in school) - that can be pretty bad too.
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SJacob7
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Thanks for your insight James. I would like to respectfully add my thoughts.
It can be a puzzling question to think we know or can’t know if we are saved. I struggled with it for over 30 years.
I understand the theory that we can’t know because, well, there is no physical/tangible proof that we will end up in heaven. But then we can also say that we *don’t really know *if the Holy Scripture is inerrant, or, that *we don’t know *if Holy Scripture really contains the Word of God. But of course, we do believe these things. I think we can agree that we don’t know a lot of things! But by the grace of God, we were given faith.
Jesus has said, in many verses and in varying ways, that those that believe in Him shall have eternal life. This we believe through faith. Faith that what He said is what He means and what He will do. It can be difficult, because there is nothing tangible to see or hear. We believe it on faith.
I remember stories in Scripture where people were healed because of their faith. Just a couple examples are in Matthew 9:22 and Matthew 9:28-30
Matthew 9:22 “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well.
Matthew 9:28-30 When he entered the house, the blind men came to him; and Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to him, “Yes, Lord.” 29 Then he touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith be it done to you.” 30 And their eyes were opened. And Jesus sternly charged them, “See that no one knows it.”
In these two instances, the people seeking healing couldn’t *know *for sure that Jesus would heal them. They knew that he could heal because they had probably heard or seen Him do it in the past. But did they really know He would do it for them? They had faith that He would and Jesus acknowledged that faith. Again, these are just a couple of examples.
I also think of Abraham and Isaac. God told Abraham that “it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned”. So why would Abraham go so far in sacrificing his son? Abraham had nothing to go on except faith in what God told him. He went as far as to raise the knife to sacrifice Isaac before the Lord stopped him. Abraham acted on faith.
We today have His word in Holy Scripture. We can choose to have faith in what Jesus says or not. The choice is up to us. As for me, I choose to have faith that I will be with Christ in heaven. There are numerous places in Scripture where we are told of eternal life through faith in Jesus. A simple search on a bible website will come up with them.
Lastly, John 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.”
So yes, we can know if we will be in heaven or in hell. We are saved by grace through faith.
May you have a blessed day!
SJ
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JRKH
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A great reply Jacob.
I think we could (as often happens in such conversations) end up splitting hairs on definitions - but let’s not go there. Besides I think you and I re both saying basically the same thing.
Yes there it much that we take on faith - and we have confidence born of that faith and the certainty that we derive from that faith drives the idea that we “know”. In that sense I must agree with what you say above.
Of course there is another understanding of knowledge…a more scientifical type understanding that seeks to remove assumptions or faith or what have you from the equation. In that sense we cannot “know”. So sometimes communication can suffer because two people have a different understanding of the same word.
I will just say that, from the Catholic perspective (or at least this Catholic) the concern over the OSAS type of view is the temptation to presumption that it presents. The idea that one can sin with impunity because they are already saved.
No serious, well versed, Christian would take that sort of view…yet I have heard it expressed - with complete faith - by others - not so well versed.
Bottom line on this issue is that (IMHO) it can be taken to extremes at both ends.
One end says you can never know - - that they are continually in danger of hell (this teeters on despair)
The other end says nothing you do can ever cause you to lose your salvation (which teeters on presumption and a lack of repentance).
Neither of these extremes are useful.
Just some thoughts…
Peace
James
I think we could (as often happens in such conversations) end up splitting hairs on definitions - but let’s not go there.
Besides I think you and I re both saying basically the same thing.Yes there it much that we take on faith - and we have confidence born of that faith and the certainty that we derive from that faith drives the idea that we “know”. In that sense I must agree with what you say above.
Of course there is another understanding of knowledge…a more scientifical type understanding that seeks to remove assumptions or faith or what have you from the equation. In that sense we cannot “know”. So sometimes communication can suffer because two people have a different understanding of the same word.
I will just say that, from the Catholic perspective (or at least this Catholic) the concern over the OSAS type of view is the temptation to presumption that it presents. The idea that one can sin with impunity because they are already saved.
No serious, well versed, Christian would take that sort of view…yet I have heard it expressed - with complete faith - by others - not so well versed.
Bottom line on this issue is that (IMHO) it can be taken to extremes at both ends.
One end says you can never know - - that they are continually in danger of hell (this teeters on despair)
The other end says nothing you do can ever cause you to lose your salvation (which teeters on presumption and a lack of repentance).
Neither of these extremes are useful.
Just some thoughts…
Peace
James
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simspt
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yes
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ptisme
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We all will spend time in purgatory if we get the thumbs up at judgement… Unless one among us has not sinnedAim for Heaven,then at the very least most will spend s e time in purgatory
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ptisme
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No such thing as years after death… Time is no longer an issue…
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ptisme
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That’s funny!We Lutherans will have it bad - there’s a joke that “Protestants will spend twice the time in Purgatory, just to prove that it exists.”
For myself, I diserve hell - but I’m thankful that it will be Him who judges me. For He is mercy and love.
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simonmic
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That’s beyond understanding for simple me.
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ptisme
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It’s extremely difficult to wrap your fingers around because here on earth, all we’ve ever known is the constraints of time and place. It would be like asking someone 500 years ago what it would be like to be floating weightless in a spacecraft…
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JRKH
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Simon,
It is for everyone…
When we speak of something being temporary (like purgatory) we mortals really HAVE to associate it with time and space. We cannot grasp it otherwise.
The Church has indeed used this measure to help us grasp these ideas. One example of this is a rosary that I have. It was blessed by my great great uncle, a Franciscan priest, many years ago. Using a rosary with this Franciscan blessing has the benefit of reducing one’s time in purgatory by something like “600 days” with each use.
Just what that truly means - - Who knows - - but it certainly sounds like a lot of benefit - a good thing. Yes?
Peace
James
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