Do you feel offended by people who come to the CC dressed as if they were at a barbeque in their backyard?

[floresco]

The problem is that simply because an idea like that symbol is still well understood (and it could simply be argued that it represents that a man shouldn’t be wearing a dress) it doesn’t mean it establishes any sort of rule. There will always be signs of previous cultural norms, but if we attach ourselves to them then our culture can never change. Among College aged Catholics pants on Women isn’t even really a question, we grew up with it being something we witnessed everyday. Change happens and it isn’t always good or bad, it is just change.

I find that symbol significant because it shows that at an iconic level our culture still identifies pants with men and dresses with women. I therefore use this distinction as far as making decisions for myself and my family. However, I have no difficulty with accepting that others can reasonably reach other conclusions.

I have no problem with a person who says that pants may be women’s clothing and are therefore permissible. On the other hand, I have a problem with Catholics who say they will dress however they wish and do not care about the principles laid out in Church teaching.

 

[JReducation]

The verse you reference shows that there was a difference between men’s clothing and women’s clothing and the interpretation you are putting on it is yours not that of the tradition of the Church. It has virtually always been considered intrinsically immoral to wear clothing of the opposite sex whether or not it had anything to do with homosexual practices. Here is an excerpt of an article (at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carlaude/Biblical_clothing on clothing of the period:
The dress of women corresponded in the main to that of the men. They also wore the ketonet and simlah. According to Deut. xxii. 5, however, there must have been some difference. The garments of the women were probably longer (compare Nahum iii. 5; Jer. xiii. 22, 26; Isa. xlvii. 2), provided with sleeves (II Sam. xiii. 19), and wider than those of the men, and therefore better adapted to conceal the figure (compare “Zeit. Deutsch. Paläst. Ver.” iv. 60). The dress of noblewomen was distinguished for its luxury and ornaments (compare Isa. iii. 16 et seq.; Ezek. xvi. 10 et seq.), and was even scented with perfumes (Ps. xlv. 8; Cant. iv. 11; compare especially the catalogue in Isa. iii. 16et seq.). The luxury in dress displayed by women in the East at the present day suggests the probability of similarly luxurious habits on the part of their sisters of former times. Niebuhr saw women appear in eight or ten different dresses during one evening. Sandals (“na’alayim”) of leather, fastened with a strap (“serok”; Gen. xiv. 23), were generally worn to protect the feet in summer against the burning sand, and in winter against the damp ground; but they were worn neither in the house nor in the sanctuary (Ex. iii. 5; Josh. v. 15). Otherwise, however, to walk about without sandals was a sign of great poverty (Deut. xxv. 19) or of deep mourning (II Sam. xv. 30; Ezek. xxiv. 17, 23).[8]

The essence of the citation, as interpreted by biblical exegetes, remains a warning against sins of the flesh, not a code of dress per se.

The essence of my post is the same. Church guides herself by reason, enlightened by faith. Faith does not spell out fashion. Faith spells out holiness. That’s why I also gave the example of the religious habits of certain orders of men and women and how they are the same habit, with the only difference being the head gear. There is a misconcpetion that male and female dress are locked in stone. They are not, nor does the Church really concern itself with this. She concerns herself with holiness. Obviously, modesty and purity are part of holiness. We have to look at fashion through the eyes of virtue. Just because my Franciscan sisters and I dress the same, does not make either of us less virtuous. If you lay out two habit tunics, a female and a male, next to each other, you would never know which is m or f unless someone tells you that the male habit is wider at the bottom. But its wideness has nothing to do with virtue. It’s because men take longer strides when we walk. That’s where the Church’s common sense comes into the picture.

In choosing appropriate clothing for Church, our choices must be governed by common sense. Common sense is going to be prudent and virtuous, even though it may not be fashionably consistent from one culture to another or one generation to another.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Indyann]

I am not asking anyone to dress up modestly for me. I am asking everyone to dress up, at least a complete dress when going to the House of God. as it too much to ask?
show some respect for the House of the Almighty.
shorts, women wearing pants and bowing with their backs to the people. not a very nice scene to look at it.

I am much more offended by someone purporting to speak for God.

Especially, when they have no clue of what they are saying.

 

[RuthCatherine]

… women wearing pants and bowing with their backs to the people. not a very nice scene to look at it.

Maybe women should consider more of a curtsy type bow when going to communion. It might be more modest. I am not trying to be funny. There are more modest ways a woman should consider when bending over to pick something up or moving about in general. Women should strive to be more ladylike and modest in their sitting and moving about.

 

[jazzbaby1]

Maybe women should consider more of a curtsy type bow when going to communion. It might be more modest. I am not trying to be funny. There are more modest ways a woman should consider when bending over to pick something up or moving about in general. Women should strive to be more ladylike and modest in their sitting and moving about.

Again, this is personal opinion. We all – men and women – are supposed to bow before receiving communion. If the Church intended us to curtsy then that would be the norm.

 

[mackk]

I can’t really dress up for mass I don’t have any thing all that nice
BUT
I have to say that there is a line
like two weeks ago a couple came into mass wearing matching outfits for some sports team … … um no big deal to me until she walks down the row in front of me and i get a face full of butt cheeks … she was wearing “booty” shorts … you know the kind that let part of your butt cheek hang out the bottom… i was just awe struck … I was trying to just ignore it but the guy beside me coughs in a weird awkward way and i turn my head seems she felt the need to bend over the pew in front of her and i all but saw her uterus … YUCK… i call that inappropriate wear. I mean truthfully at that point I knew WAY more about her body than i ever wanted to .

//mackk

 

[RuthCatherine]

I can’t really dress up for mass I don’t have any thing all that nice
BUT
I have to say that there is a line
like two weeks ago a couple came into mass wearing matching outfits for some sports team … … um no big deal to me until she walks down the row in front of me and i get a face full of butt cheeks … she was wearing “booty” shorts … you know the kind that let part of your butt cheek hang out the bottom… i was just awe struck … I was trying to just ignore it but the guy beside me coughs in a weird awkward way and i turn my head seems she felt the need to bend over the pew in front of her and i all but saw her uterus … YUCK… i call that inappropriate wear. I mean truthfully at that point I knew WAY more about her body than i ever wanted to .

//mackk

I think these are the type of things people see at Mass that are so disrespectful that bother them and end up starting these threads.
That would be a horrible scene to see at Mass.

 

[JReducation]

Consider this passage from the spiritual classic Abandonment to Divine Providence by Fr. De Caussade:
On intemperate and indiscreet zeal.

I see, my dear Sister, that a mistaken zeal exposes you to dangers all the more serious because they are hidden under the most insidious appearances. Desire for the perfection of our neighbour is, doubtless, very good; the pain that is felt interiorly at the sight of his defects is good also, provided it proceeds from a pure desire for his perfection, But with all this there must needs be mingled much secret self-complacency, confidence in one’s own superior light, and severity towards one’s neighbour. Zeal such as this cannot, you must well understand, come from God; it is an illusion of the devil, hurtful to yourself and to others.

St. Teresa of Avila makes a similar point in the Interior Castle: Indiscreet zeal about others must not be indulged in; it may do us much harm; let each one look to herself. How ever, as I have spoken fully on this subject elsewhere, I will not enlarge on it here, and will only beg you to remember the necessity of this mutual affection. Our souls may lose their peace and even disturb other people’s if we are always criticizing trivial actions which often are not real defects at all, but we construe them wrongly through ignorance of their motives. See how much it costs to attain perfection!

These citations are filled with great truth and beauty.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Ashurie]

I am just curious, that is all…

I am University student, and do not get a lot of money. But I do own a nice pair of jeans, and a few lovely tops…would one be offended if I attend Sunday Mass? I am modest, clean…but not wearing “perfect Sunday best” because I need half of my student payment for rent and food.

I only ask this, is I am waiting confirmation to being my RCIA, and have only attended week day mass at University, when I am there.

 

[PatrickSebast]

I am just curious, that is all…

I am University student, and do not get a lot of money. But I do own a nice pair of jeans, and a few lovely tops…would one be offended if I attend Sunday Mass? I am modest, clean…but not wearing “perfect Sunday best” because I need half of my student payment for rent and food.

I only ask this, is I am waiting confirmation to being my RCIA, and have only attended week day mass at University, when I am there.

In most Catholic Churches people will only go slightly above casual dress, there is honestly no need to be concerned as far as the majority of Catholics go. Sure you might offend the occasional person, but they are going to be offended by a lot more people than you if that is the case, and it is also entirely possible that dressing in fancy clothes could be viewed as a bit elitist so it isn’t like you can be assured that a particular style of dress is ever going to make anyone happy. Best to go in whatever makes you feel the most comfortable (assuming it is modest) we wouldn’t want you feeling confined in a stuffy outfit or distracted by what other people might think of your clothes when you could be participating in the Mass after all.

 

[PatrickSebast]

I think the greatest irony of this thread is that has actually made me think less of the idea of dressing up for Mass. My suit coat is definitely a vanity item, and I think it seems difficult to mix something purchased with the intent to impress and a humble attitude.

 

[motoeric]

I haven’t read all 22 pages of this thread, so I apologize if someone has already mentioned this.

If I saw someone at Mass that wasn’t wearing what others might deem to be appropriate clothing I would like to hope that the person may have been coming in off the street. Someone who hasn’t been to Mass in quite some time and felt a calling to come into the Church on the spur of the moment. Maybe they were on their way to the bakery or coming back from a friends home and decided that it had been long enough and wanted to share in the Mass.

In that case, their attending should be a joyous occasion.

Eric

 

[Ashurie]

In most Catholic Churches people will only go slightly above casual dress, there is honestly no need to be concerned as far as the majority of Catholics go. Sure you might offend the occasional person, but they are going to be offended by a lot more people than you if that is the case, and it is also entirely possible that dressing in fancy clothes could be viewed as a bit elitist so it isn’t like you can be assured that a particular style of dress is ever going to make anyone happy. Best to go in whatever makes you feel the most comfortable (assuming it is modest) we wouldn’t want you feeling confined in a stuffy outfit or distracted by what other people might think of your clothes when you could be participating in the Mass after all.

Thank you so much

A few weeks back I attended St. Mary of the Cross’ celebration Mass at the local Cathedral. I ask on here what I should wear and one comment was “wear what you would to a wedding”. I didn’t but went neat casual, wore my new jeans and a nice top, with a pair of nice shoes…I arrived, I didn’t feel under dressed, but felt over dressed with some of the people that where there, in hooded jumpers and all.

I thought…well it is a celebration Mass…and then did think twice.

But then see that people ‘have’ to have a Sunday best, made me think, and hence my question…

 

[thistle]

These citations are filled with great truth and beauty.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

These citations remind me of the words of St John of The Cross:

“Some souls suffer from another kind of spiritual anger. They watch over others with a kind of restless fervor, perpetually annoyed by the transgressions they perceive. The impulse arise to reprove the other souls in an angry way. Sometimes they even indulge this nasty urge, elevating themselves as masters of virtue. This is all quite contrary to spiritual meekness.”

 

[LilyM]

I find that symbol significant because it shows that at an iconic level our culture still identifies pants with men and dresses with women. I therefore use this distinction as far as making decisions for myself and my family. However, I have no difficulty with accepting that others can reasonably reach other conclusions.

While it is true that a skirt is iconically identified with women, this is along the same lines of long hair being associated with women, or a soft rather than loud voice. Such identification does NOT mean that it is in any way wrong or ‘unfeminine’ for a woman to have short hair (I happen to think short hair, as long as it’s not a buzzcut or something, can be far more becoming, and ironically more feminine, on quite a lot of women than long hair). Or to speak with a slightly loud voice.

I have no problem with a person who says that pants may be women’s clothing and are therefore permissible. On the other hand, I have a problem with Catholics who say they will dress however they wish and do not care about the principles laid out in Church teaching.

And I haven’t seen anyone on this thread say they do not care about Church teaching on dress, simply that Church teaching does not go to the extent of condemning slacks on women, or jeans or t-shirts on either sex, provided they are modest in design.

 

[JReducation]

While it is true that a skirt is iconically identified with women, this is along the same lines of long hair being associated with women, or a soft rather than loud voice. Such identification does NOT mean that it is in any way wrong or ‘unfeminine’ for a woman to have short hair (I happen to think short hair, as long as it’s not a buzzcut or something, can be far more becoming, and ironically more feminine, on quite a lot of women than long hair). Or to speak with a slightly loud voice.

And I haven’t seen anyone on this thread say they do not care about Church teaching on dress, simply that Church teaching does not go to the extent of condemning slacks on women, or jeans or t-shirts on either sex, provided they are modest in design.

I agree with you. No one is opposed to the Church’s guidance on modesty and common sense. I have not seen that on this thread. In fact, the Church’s teachings on modesty are very simple and very undemanding. They can be summed up in simple words: modest, simple, becoming, and practical. I’ve always liked that description, which is the one that the Church used for guiding the reform of religious habits. She used those four terms, because they sort of sum it all up, without imposing things on people that are contrary to their resources, their culture, climate, and circumstance.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Denise1957]

I am just curious, that is all…

I am University student, and do not get a lot of money. But I do own a nice pair of jeans, and a few lovely tops…would one be offended if I attend Sunday Mass? I am modest, clean…but not wearing “perfect Sunday best” because I need half of my student payment for rent and food.

I only ask this, is I am waiting confirmation to being my RCIA, and have only attended week day mass at University, when I am there.

If you do at some point decide that you need different clothing for Mass (and I’m not trying to be pushy about this at all , you might consider buying one or two items at a thrift store, since you are on a limited budget. I buy most of my skirts, dresses, and blouses at a thrift store, and they last a long time since I only wear them to Mass. I wear pants, otherwise. A nice skirt can be purchased for about $6.00.

 

[Indyann]

These citations remind me of the words of St John of The Cross:

“Some souls suffer from another kind of spiritual anger. They watch over others with a kind of restless fervor, perpetually annoyed by the transgressions they perceive. The impulse arise to reprove the other souls in an angry way. Sometimes they even indulge this nasty urge, elevating themselves as masters of virtue. This is all quite contrary to spiritual meekness.”

Hits the nail on the head! An apt statement for this thread.

One might think St. John of the Cross is sending us all a message.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

These citations remind me of the words of St John of The Cross:

“Some souls suffer from another kind of spiritual anger. They watch over others with a kind of restless fervor, perpetually annoyed by the transgressions they perceive. The impulse arise to reprove the other souls in an angry way. Sometimes they even indulge this nasty urge, elevating themselves as masters of virtue. This is all quite contrary to spiritual meekness.”

Indeed. I agree with Indyann completely.

 

[floresco]

And I haven’t seen anyone on this thread say they do not care about Church teaching on dress, simply that Church teaching does not go to the extent of condemning slacks on women, or jeans or t-shirts on either sex, provided they are modest in design.

I agree. I do not recall anyone in this thread rejecting Church teaching. I hope that my words were not understood to mean that I think otherwise.