Do you feel offended by people who come to the CC dressed as if they were at a barbeque in their backyard?

[Anrando]

The majority of the world’s Catholics live in third world countries and hundreds of millions of them in poverty. Often they are lucky to even have shorts, t-shirts and flip flops. Are you saying they should not be allowed to attend Mass?

This is silly. NO the poster wasn’t saying that. The topic was middle class AMERICANS, not the poor of third world countries, going to church like they were at a barbecue.

I must admit that I am taken aback by these types of threads. I guess my age puts me so far behind the “cool” curve that I don’t understand how people can say that G-d doesn’t care how they approach him, and that clothing is not an issue. It is amazing to me that most of those defending “dressing down” for mass would never do the same if they were going to a job interview, or to a dinner date etc, but for some reason mass is OK.

Is G-d not worth the same respect as a job interviewer?

I think that is the whole point. Nobody, well with some few exceptions, is suggesting a dress code specifying skirts for women and suits for men. Modesty has been introduced but I would venture a bit further…RESPECTFUL clothing.

What would you wear to meet any important person in your life. Please don’t tell me you would wear beach sandals and shorts because we both know it just isn’t so (I hope not anyway).

I dress as well as I can for mass. Not because I am trying to impress anyone, but because it is the same I would do were I called before the court, or some other situation where I would be expected to dress in a business-like and respectful manner. Sometimes I wear a suit and tie, but in the summer it is so hot and humid here a sport shirt has to do. But I try to dress as RESPECTFULLY as I can.

I’m sorry, I don’t live in a third world ghetto, and I would bet the majority of posters here don’t either, so the argument that for US middle class folks to not dress like slobs would some how prohibit the unfortunates in the world from attending mass is just nonsense and insulting.

If you really believe that G-d is present at mass, doesn’t he at least deserve RESPECTFUL attire?

I’m old, and old fashioned. Sorry, I will never be able to accept tramp stamps, bra straps, skinny low rise jeans, or muscle shirts at mass. It just isn’t respectful. G-d deserves better, at least to my apparently senile mind.

W.Unland

 

[StTommyMore]

For an apologist site, they sure throw up one heck of a strawman. If you read, all the Church documentation is referenced to modesty, not pants.

I do think the principles of modesty are laid out very well, though. However, especially when it comes to fashion, one can not use standards from generations past. Also, a Brazilian bishop’s discipline for his Church back in the sixties and seventies never extended beyond his own diocese, or past his death.

One thing I appreciate about Catholic Answers is that it at least tries to stick to what the Church says and does go beyond to promote any agenda. The only thing I learned was to be leary of this site. Of course, I am suspicious of any site that does not explain who they are and what their goals are.

I have encountere that site before, znd it strikes me as borderline sdedvacantist

 

[ThereseOfRoses]

So, by advocating for modesty in the Church is an evil thing?

Oh please! You are once again missing the point. Using someone’s personal opinion and trying to pass it off as “official Church teaching” is inappropriate. What part of that is so difficult for you to understand?

It takes humility to accept that there is a difference between personal opinions and Church teachings, documents, and official stances. That link is simply a personal opinion interspersed with some “official references”. Much like a paper one writes in college using the “persuasive argument”. Throw in some factual references and use it to your advantage to make your point. We all do that…it’s when the line is crossed with taking your personal opinion and trying to convince others that it is “official teaching” that it becomes sinful.

 

[reaganjn]

sooo i guess ME wearing a nice pair of pants or nice capris with nice sandals on along with a modest nice shirt is WRONG in your eyes (OP). I do NOT dress like a slob at all, like wearing tshirts and jeans with holes or showing private areas…i make sure my clothes are modest and nice looking. i do wear nice skirts with a nice shirts like from target or old navy. during the holidays i have wonderful sweaters and warm fuzzy boots or stylish flats and beautiful skirts and pants. but because im not dressed in a fancy dress you are going to judge me or someone else wearing the same thing. shame on you for not being focused on what is really important. and that is the Eucharist. being in the presence of His glory. that is my rant for the day.

i hope you all have a wonderful day!!!

 

[wisdomseeker]

This is silly. NO the poster wasn’t saying that. The topic was middle class AMERICANS, not the poor of third world countries, going to church like they were at a barbecue.

I must admit that I am taken aback by these types of threads. I guess my age puts me so far behind the “cool” curve that I don’t understand how people can say that G-d doesn’t care how they approach him, and that clothing is not an issue. It is amazing to me that most of those defending “dressing down” for mass would never do the same if they were going to a job interview, or to a dinner date etc, but for some reason mass is OK.

Is G-d not worth the same respect as a job interviewer?

I think that is the whole point. Nobody, well with some few exceptions, is suggesting a dress code specifying skirts for women and suits for men. Modesty has been introduced but I would venture a bit further…RESPECTFUL clothing.

What would you wear to meet any important person in your life. Please don’t tell me you would wear beach sandals and shorts because we both know it just isn’t so (I hope not anyway).

I dress as well as I can for mass. Not because I am trying to impress anyone, but because it is the same I would do were I called before the court, or some other situation where I would be expected to dress in a business-like and respectful manner. Sometimes I wear a suit and tie, but in the summer it is so hot and humid here a sport shirt has to do. But I try to dress as RESPECTFULLY as I can.

I’m sorry, I don’t live in a third world ghetto, and I would bet the majority of posters here don’t either, so the argument that for US middle class folks to not dress like slobs would some how prohibit the unfortunates in the world from attending mass is just nonsense and insulting.

If you really believe that G-d is present at mass, doesn’t he at least deserve RESPECTFUL attire?

I’m old, and old fashioned. Sorry, I will never be able to accept tramp stamps, bra straps, skinny low rise jeans, or muscle shirts at mass. It just isn’t respectful. G-d deserves better, at least to my apparently senile mind.

W.Unland

thank you.

 

[StTommyMore]

I am still waiting for an explanation as to why pats are objectively “less appropriate” than skirts/dresses for women? Anybody?

 

[floresco]

The answer is that Herod gave Jesus an elegant robe and sent him back to Pilate. Jesus was beaten and dressed in a purple robe as a sort satiric humor by the Roman soldiers which may or may not have been the robe that came from Herod. Either way it wasn’t his robe.

The accounts of the mocking in the robe say that the robe was taken away and Jesus led off to be killed in his own clothes. The valuable seamless garment which the soldiers cast lots for rather than destroy belonged to Jesus.

 

[pnewton]

So, by advocating for modesty in the Church is an evil thing?

No. Where in the name of Mike did you get that idea. (extra credit to any who can cite the reference for this phrase)

I see two issues addressed there and in this thread. One is the question of modesty, in Church, out of Church, modesty. It is a sin to deliberately entice lust in our dress. The other issue is formality of clothing. I refer to the original title of this thread. I think that you, and others offended by women’s slacks are using a bait and switch tactic. You argue correctly against immodest clothing, then plug “casual” for “immodest” and hope no one notices the swap. It is furthermore my opinion that this is done precisely because the Church has spoken often about modesty, as opposed to casual dress.

 

[ProVobis]

Either way it wasn’t his robe.

There’s an idea. We have a dressing room for everyone before they sit down in church. Everyone will, of course, be wearing the same attire.

Just kidding.

 

[RuthCatherine]

This is silly. NO the poster wasn’t saying that. The topic was middle class AMERICANS, not the poor of third world countries, going to church like they were at a barbecue.

I must admit that I am taken aback by these types of threads. I guess my age puts me so far behind the “cool” curve that I don’t understand how people can say that G-d doesn’t care how they approach him, and that clothing is not an issue. It is amazing to me that most of those defending “dressing down” for mass would never do the same if they were going to a job interview, or to a dinner date etc, but for some reason mass is OK.

Is G-d not worth the same respect as a job interviewer?

I think that is the whole point. Nobody, well with some few exceptions, is suggesting a dress code specifying skirts for women and suits for men. Modesty has been introduced but I would venture a bit further…RESPECTFUL clothing.

What would you wear to meet any important person in your life. Please don’t tell me you would wear beach sandals and shorts because we both know it just isn’t so (I hope not anyway).

I dress as well as I can for mass. Not because I am trying to impress anyone, but because it is the same I would do were I called before the court, or some other situation where I would be expected to dress in a business-like and respectful manner. Sometimes I wear a suit and tie, but in the summer it is so hot and humid here a sport shirt has to do. But I try to dress as RESPECTFULLY as I can.

I’m sorry, I don’t live in a third world ghetto, and I would bet the majority of posters here don’t either, so the argument that for US middle class folks to not dress like slobs would some how prohibit the unfortunates in the world from attending mass is just nonsense and insulting.

If you really believe that G-d is present at mass, doesn’t he at least deserve RESPECTFUL attire?

I’m old, and old fashioned. Sorry, I will never be able to accept tramp stamps, bra straps, skinny low rise jeans, or muscle shirts at mass. It just isn’t respectful. G-d deserves better, at least to my apparently senile mind.

W.Unland

Very well put. I agree.

 

[RuthCatherine]

. but because im not dressed in a fancy dress you are going to judge me or someone else wearing the same thing. shame on you for not being focused on what is really important. and that is the Eucharist. being in the presence of His glory. that is my rant for the day.

i hope you all have a wonderful day!!!

I don’t believe the OP said anything about a*** fancy*** dress. He said to dress nice. He has said dresses but not fancy dresses. Alot of people are taking the OP and making exaggerations. There is a difference between a nice dress and a fancy dress.

 

[reaganjn]

I don’t believe the OP said anything about a*** fancy*** dress. He said to dress nice. He has said dresses but not fancy dresses. Alot of people are taking the OP and making exaggerations. There is a difference between a nice dress and a fancy dress.

i never said that the OP said anything FANCY dresses…I said that.

 

[LilyM]

Is G-d not worth the same respect as a job interviewer?

But you DON’T dress up for a job interview out of respect, be honest. You dress up to pander to the human frailty of the human job interviewer who, like all humans, is prone to judge candidates (many times wrongly) based on their dress. God, I am confident, makes no such mistakes and has no such human frailties that we can or should attempt to take advantage of.

If anything, I am strongly of the view that it is insulting to the Almighty to think HIS view of us can be so easily swayed by such a thing as the formality or costliness (never to be confused with the modesty) of the threads on our back.

Remember, even the dress-code at St Peters (and I’ve been there) allows for sneakers, jeans and t-shirts, as long as they cover knees, cleavage and shoulders. If His Holiness sees no problem with jeans and tshirts, and I am sure he is at least as old and old-fashioned (if you want to put it that way) as you, then something is clearly amiss. Are you suggesting that the Holy Father is in the wrong?

What would you wear to meet any important person in your life. Please don’t tell me you would wear beach sandals and shorts because we both know it just isn’t so (I hope not anyway).

If I was meeting the important person AT the beach then absolutely I would wear beach sandals. And so would the important person. And so would you if you have any sense.

It would be foolish in the extreme to wear a ballgown or three-piece suit, or normal shoes, on the beach, in view of the difficulty of cleaning all that sand and salt off of 'em afterwards.

I dress as well as I can for mass. Not because I am trying to impress anyone, but because it is the same I would do were I called before the court, or some other situation where I would be expected to dress in a business-like and respectful manner. Sometimes I wear a suit and tie, but in the summer it is so hot and humid here a sport shirt has to do. But I try to dress as RESPECTFULLY as I can.

I don’t doubt your good will and respect for God. However, what you’ve talked about is the essence of human respect. You are trying to express a business like attitude to God, apparently just as if He were any old human being - a judge, a job interviewer, a King or President - who can only sense your respect by your externals such as dress since they don’t know you well enough to know your heart.

Respect for the Almighty is somewhat of a different kettle of fish, not that I’d say for a second you don’t have that as well, but the two aren’t the same thing.

If you really believe that G-d is present at mass, doesn’t he at least deserve RESPECTFUL attire?

I truly believe He is present everywhere. And I respect Him everywhere. He’s present when I’m naked in the shower, and I am respectful of Him even in my nakedness. He’s present when I’m in a one-piece bathing suit in the pool, and I’m respectful even in my bathers. He’s present when I’m in pyjamas in bed, and I’m respectful then too. Present when I’m in a fur coat at the opera - yup, still respectful.

And present when I’m at Mass in jeans (neither skinny nor low rise, but it’s common ground among all of us that such would be immodest under any circumstances) and t-shirt (again, never showing bra straps, but again, it’s common ground that to do so is immodest in any circumstances). And I’m fully aware of His special presence at Mass and fully respectful of it, not a whit less than in any other of the situations I’ve named.

 

[RuthCatherine]

Some may ignore this because it is not recent. But I believe it is good advice even for today.

In 1921, Pope Benedict the XV stated,*** " One cannot sufficiently deplore the blindness of so many women of every age and condition; made foolish by desire to please, they do not see to what a degree the indecency of their clothing shocks every honest man, and offends God. Most of them would formerly have blushed for these outfits as for a grave fault against Christian modesty; now it does not suffice for them to exhibit them on the public thoroughfares; they do not fear to cross the threshold to the churches, to assist at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and even to bear the seducing food of shameful passions to the Eucharistic Tab le where one receives the Heavenly Author of purity."

Pope Pius the XII also stated in 1941, “Numbers of believeing and pious women… in accepting to follow certain bold fashions, break down by their example, the resistance of many other women to such fashions, which may become for them the cause of spiritual ruin. As long as these provacative styles remain identified with women of doubtful virtue, good women do not dare to follow them, but once these styles have been accepted by women of good reputation, decent women soon follow their example and are carried along by the tide into possible disaster.”

He also stated, " Now many girls do not see anything wrong with following certain shamless styles, like so many sheep. They would surely blush if they could only guess the impression they make and the feelings they arouse in those who see them."***

You can find these quotes and many other Church documents on modesty and women’s fashions in a book by Colleen Hammond, called Dressing with Dignity. She explains that research taken shows what men think when looking at women in pants. It is not very good. For some reason when women are in pants men eyes, tend to wander to areas of lust. The feminist would say it is the man’s fault but women are responsible for how they dress.

Hollywood even knows that. That is why they have women in pants sit very immodestly. It’s time we as Catholics stopped being like the culture. Jesus said we are not to be of the world.

I highly recommend this book to any woman wants to know Church teachings on modesty.

valoramedia.com/products-page/books/

 

[RuthCatherine]

i never said that the OP said anything FANCY dresses…I said that.

I agree.

 

[StTommyMore]

It must be remembered that as Catholics we are not called to fallow the whims of others blindly. We must rely on a properly formed conscience. The manner of dress is not dogmatic. We must trust in our conscience to guide us in such things.

 

[LilyM]

You can find these quotes and many other Church documents on modesty and women’s fashions in a book by Colleen Hammond, called Dressing with Dignity. She explains that research taken shows what men think when looking at women in pants. It is not very good. For some reason when women are in pants men eyes, tend to wander to areas of lust. The feminist would say it is the man’s fault but women are responsible for how they dress.

Hollywood even knows that. That is why they have women in pants sit very immodestly. It’s time we as Catholics stopped being like the culture. Jesus said we are not to be of the world.

I highly recommend this book to any woman wants to know Church teachings on modesty.

valoramedia.com/products-page/books/

I never saw Marilyn Monroe wearing pants in a movie, yet the skin-tight skirts she wore surely incited many men’s eyes to ‘wander to areas of lust’ such as her hips and backside.

She famously cut a quarter inch off the heel of one shoe out of each pair so that the uneven height would cause her hips to sway and rear to wiggle.

Women who are out to attract attention will do so regardless of whether they’re in skirt or pants. Women whose desire is to be modestly dressed will be so, whether they’re in skir or pants.

 

[ThereseOfRoses]

Some may ignore this because it is not recent. But I believe it is good advice even for today.

In 1921, Pope Benedict the XV stated,*** " One cannot sufficiently deplore the blindness of so many women of every age and condition; made foolish by desire to please, they do not see to what a degree the indecency of their clothing shocks every honest man, and offends God. Most of them would formerly have blushed for these outfits as for a grave fault against Christian modesty; now it does not suffice for them to exhibit them on the public thoroughfares; they do not fear to cross the threshold to the churches, to assist at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and even to bear the seducing food of shameful passions to the Eucharistic Tab le where one receives the Heavenly Author of purity."

Pope Pius the XII also stated in 1941, “Numbers of believeing and pious women… in accepting to follow certain bold fashions, break down by their example, the resistance of many other women to such fashions, which may become for them the cause of spiritual ruin. As long as these provacative styles remain identified with women of doubtful virtue, good women do not dare to follow them, but once these styles have been accepted by women of good reputation, decent women soon follow their example and are carried along by the tide into possible disaster.”

He also stated, " Now many girls do not see anything wrong with following certain shamless styles, like so many sheep. They would surely blush if they could only guess the impression they make and the feelings they arouse in those who see them."***

You can find these quotes and many other Church documents on modesty and women’s fashions in a book by Colleen Hammond, called Dressing with Dignity. She explains that research taken shows what men think when looking at women in pants. It is not very good. For some reason when women are in pants men eyes, tend to wander to areas of lust. The feminist would say it is the man’s fault but women are responsible for how they dress.

Hollywood even knows that. That is why they have women in pants sit very immodestly. It’s time we as Catholics stopped being like the culture. Jesus said we are not to be of the world.

I highly recommend this book to any woman wants to know Church teachings on modesty.

valoramedia.com/products-page/books/

First of all, I don’t find that harsh at all. The ruckus on here is because the OP has taken it upon him/herself to determine that women shouldn’t wear pants (ever) and has been slyly using the thread to get his/her opinion across as a “teaching of the Church”.

I have not only read Colleen’s book, but have recommended it and given it out to friends. There are a few things that she has written there that I disagree with, but those are her personal opinions on a few things, not Church teachings that she has quoted.

My concern on this thread isn’t that I condone immodest clothes, I don’t and have stated before I don’t want to see cleavage, bare shoulders, bare bellies, plumber cracks, kneecaps or armpits on women OR men at Church…and there are several of those things I don’t care to see out in public, either.

My concern is there are a few on here that INSIST that women are rebelling against God and are pretty much in mortal sin if they wear pants, based on their PERSONAL OPINION , not Church teaching, but they insist that it’s “what God wants” without posting any sources. Those folks refuse to take history into consideration, such as men in biblical times (in the middle east/bible lands) didn’t wear pants…they wore robes and tunics. It was well over a thousand years after Christ walked the earth that men began to wear “breeches” in European culture. I have pointed out several times that men and women of Asian and Indian cultures wore pants prior to be converted to Christianity many centuries ago and continued to do so after their conversion. The response I was given was that it was “interesting I was mentioning PAGAN cultures”…I found that highly offensive. All cultures, outside of the Hebrew tribes, were PAGAN at one time.

I am waiting for some to mention St Pio’s rule about clothing (ankle-length skirts and no pants)…I think Padre Pio was a very holy man; holy enough to be canonized. But we must remember, he was human, and he was not in the position in which to speak “ex cathedra”. So, once again, it’s simply the opinion of a good and holy person, not an official teaching of the Church. When Pope Benedict XVl tells women (ex cathedra) not to wear pants, I will stop wearing them.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Some may ignore this because it is not recent. But I believe it is good advice even for today.

In 1921, Pope Benedict the XV stated,*** " One cannot sufficiently deplore the blindness of so many women of every age and condition; made foolish by desire to please, they do not see to what a degree the indecency of their clothing shocks every honest man, and offends God. Most of them would formerly have blushed for these outfits as for a grave fault against Christian modesty; now it does not suffice for them to exhibit them on the public thoroughfares; they do not fear to cross the threshold to the churches, to assist at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and even to bear the seducing food of shameful passions to the Eucharistic Tab le where one receives the Heavenly Author of purity."

Pope Pius the XII also stated in 1941, “Numbers of believeing and pious women… in accepting to follow certain bold fashions, break down by their example, the resistance of many other women to such fashions, which may become for them the cause of spiritual ruin. As long as these provacative styles remain identified with women of doubtful virtue, good women do not dare to follow them, but once these styles have been accepted by women of good reputation, decent women soon follow their example and are carried along by the tide into possible disaster.”

He also stated, " Now many girls do not see anything wrong with following certain shamless styles, like so many sheep. They would surely blush if they could only guess the impression they make and the feelings they arouse in those who see them."***

You can find these quotes and many other Church documents on modesty and women’s fashions in a book by Colleen Hammond, called Dressing with Dignity. She explains that research taken shows what men think when looking at women in pants. It is not very good. For some reason when women are in pants men eyes, tend to wander to areas of lust. The feminist would say it is the man’s fault but women are responsible for how they dress.

Hollywood even knows that. That is why they have women in pants sit very immodestly. It’s time we as Catholics stopped being like the culture. Jesus said we are not to be of the world.

I highly recommend this book to any woman wants to know Church teachings on modesty.

valoramedia.com/products-page/books/

Thank you Catherine for posting this. now all know what where the Truth is.
pants shapes the body and make them provocative. it is design to provoke man and show sexuality.

this stands even more today. this was a warning for Catholics. but like so many others this also must be ignored by the modernists.

 

[PatrickSebast]

This is silly. NO the poster wasn’t saying that. The topic was middle class AMERICANS, not the poor of third world countries, going to church like they were at a barbecue.

I must admit that I am taken aback by these types of threads. I guess my age puts me so far behind the “cool” curve that I don’t understand how people can say that G-d doesn’t care how they approach him, and that clothing is not an issue. It is amazing to me that most of those defending “dressing down” for mass would never do the same if they were going to a job interview, or to a dinner date etc, but for some reason mass is OK.

Is G-d not worth the same respect as a job interviewer?

I think that is the whole point. Nobody, well with some few exceptions, is suggesting a dress code specifying skirts for women and suits for men. Modesty has been introduced but I would venture a bit further…RESPECTFUL clothing.

What would you wear to meet any important person in your life. Please don’t tell me you would wear beach sandals and shorts because we both know it just isn’t so (I hope not anyway).

I dress as well as I can for mass. Not because I am trying to impress anyone, but because it is the same I would do were I called before the court, or some other situation where I would be expected to dress in a business-like and respectful manner. Sometimes I wear a suit and tie, but in the summer it is so hot and humid here a sport shirt has to do. But I try to dress as RESPECTFULLY as I can.

I’m sorry, I don’t live in a third world ghetto, and I would bet the majority of posters here don’t either, so the argument that for US middle class folks to not dress like slobs would some how prohibit the unfortunates in the world from attending mass is just nonsense and insulting.

If you really believe that G-d is present at mass, doesn’t he at least deserve RESPECTFUL attire?

I’m old, and old fashioned. Sorry, I will never be able to accept tramp stamps, bra straps, skinny low rise jeans, or muscle shirts at mass. It just isn’t respectful. G-d deserves better, at least to my apparently senile mind.

W.Unland

You like many others seem to be interchanging dressing modestly and dressing nicely. No one has argued about dressing modestly and there is pretty much universal agreements on things like bra straps and tramp stamps. The thing is the clothing we wear to job interviews is worn to impress others through vanity, the concept of “Sunday Best” is often in opposition to the concept of humility. Yes it is possible to dress well to honor God, but it is also possible to get caught up in dressing well and letting it become an occasion of sin for oneself.