Do you feel uncomfortable that JP2's sainthood is being fast-tracked and that his canonization appears to be a forgone conclusion?

[Lepanto]

It does recognize that we are in a world were information is easier to find and confirm (or disprove) as well as faster to disseminate as needed.

Yes, I know that we have email and such today. Much faster than horses, BUT:

1. Human mistakes still happen, regardless of communication method. Modern communication technologies only disseminate information, they do not guarantee against error. Actually, this might be a situation where slower dissemination is better, because if something is erroneously (or with less than perfect precision) is let out it’s impossible to retract or correct once it can be googled. Just look at how the media have completely misunderstood B16’s Regensburg Address.
2. The normal five year minimum timeframe is meant to give what was formally called the advocatus diaboli (“devil’s advocate”) within the Congregation adequate time to do its job and so as not to feel pressured. It also serves as a cooling-off period. Once someone like JP2 dies, even his enemies “love” him for a little while. It’s almost like there’s a honeymoon period. Rational decisions are not made during honeymoons.

 

[down_under]

But the purpose of the investigation of a candidate by the Congregation for the Causes of Saints is to verify worthiness of canonization. They are supposed to look at a candidate’s life behind the scenes. JP2 was a very public figure, and that’s all that most of us really know about him. That is a very superficial knowledge of a person. The Congregation’s job is to dig MUCH deeper into a person’s past – behind the camera, so to speak.

In every investigation, we must hold out the possibility, however remote, that the decision rendered by the Congregation might be “no” – that the person is unworthy.

But with JP2 (and Mother Theresa for that matter), I feel like their causes for sainthood are like freight trains. Completely unstoppable. Could you imagine the public uproar if the Congregation, for whatever reason, concluded that JP2 or Mother Theresa were not worthy of canonization? (I’m getting a sense of the uproar on this thread just by raising the issue.)

If we force the hand of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints, then the investigations are pointless. JP2 and Mother Theresa should just be canonized today and the Congregation dissolved. If we all know it’s a sure thing, why wait even one more day?

I think the current Pope and the mentioned congregation can decide that just fine on there own. If they think there is enough cause to move along with a sainthood then they will do so. They are not playing favorits they just no the obvious and now want to dig a little deeper. And yes it is a no brainer that mother theresa and jp2 will probably some day both be canonized saints. They both lived lives of heroic virtue. It is just not that hard to see. The congregation for the Causes of the saints will root around in there private lives (not that they had huge private lives) and more than likely find what we already highly suspect to be the case.
But the Congregation will do what the congregation will think is right. No one, I presume, is actually making the argument that there is just known cause for not making either of these people a saint. If they do lets here it.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Yes, I know that we have email and such today. Much faster than horses, BUT:

1. Human mistakes still happen, regardless of communication method. Modern communication technologies only disseminate information, they do not guarantee against error. Actually, this might be a situation where slower dissemination is better, because if something is erroneously (or with less than perfect precision) is let out it’s impossible to retract or correct once it can be googled. Just look at how the media have completely misunderstood B16’s Regensburg Address.
2. The normal five year minimum timeframe is meant to give what was formally called the advocatus diaboli (“devil’s advocate”) within the Congregation adequate time to do its job and so as not to feel pressured. It also serves as a cooling-off period. Once someone like JP2 dies, even his enemies “love” him for a little while. It’s almost like there’s a honeymoon period. Rational decisions are not made during honeymoons.

Re #1 - NOTHING guarantees against error. Slower dissemination of information means slower discovery and correction of information. Slower does not prevent misunderstandings.

Re #2 - It is hard to imagine that some prep work for this process was not done ahead of time (like during his last years) to be kept IN CASE it was needed. And it is harder to imagine that those entrusted with this task would not be able to poke thru the ‘honeymoon’ aspect immediately following his death.

 

[MarieVeronica]

But the purpose of the investigation of a candidate by the Congregation for the Causes of Saints is to verify worthiness of canonization. They are supposed to look at a candidate’s life behind the scenes. JP2 was a very public figure, and that’s all that most of us really know about him. That is a very superficial knowledge of a person. The Congregation’s job is to dig MUCH deeper into a person’s past – behind the camera, so to speak.

In every investigation, we must hold out the possibility, however remote, that the decision rendered by the Congregation might be “no” – that the person is unworthy.

But with JP2 (and Mother Theresa for that matter), I feel like their causes for sainthood are like freight trains. Completely unstoppable. Could you imagine the public uproar if the Congregation, for whatever reason, concluded that JP2 or Mother Theresa were not worthy of canonization? (I’m getting a sense of the uproar on this thread just by raising the issue.)

If we force the hand of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints, then the investigations are pointless. JP2 and Mother Theresa should just be canonized today and the Congregation dissolved. If we all know it’s a sure thing, why wait even one more day?

There are still many people living, who were friends of our late Holy Father John Paul II… before his public life began. And can attest to his holiness, even from boyhood. Childhood friends, friends of his youth… people who knew him in school or in the seminary,… parishioners from his first parish assignment (I believe it was the parish of Niegowic, 30 miles from Krakow).

No, there’s plenty of witnesses to the life of the “hidden” John Paul II… (aka “Lolek” to his childhood friends, or Fr. Karol Wojtyla to his parishioners).

If you haven’t already, you might want to read his biography. Here is a short, online biography. If one can believe it… there is much, much more to this holy man’s story… than his public years as the Vicar of Christ. God bless.

vatican.va/news_services/press/documentazione/documents/santopadre_biografie/giovanni_paolo_ii_biografia_breve_en.html

 

[Lepanto]

There are still many people living, who were friends of our late Holy Father John Paul II… before his public life began. And can attest to his holiness, even from boyhood. Childhood friends, friends of his youth… people who knew him in school or in the seminary,… parishioners from his first parish assignment (I believe it was the parish of Niegowic, 30 miles from Krakow).

No, there’s plenty of witnesses to the life of the “hidden” John Paul II… (aka “Lolek” to his childhood friends, or Fr. Karol Wojtyla to his parishioners).

If you haven’t already, you might want to read his biography. Here is a short, online biography. If one can believe it… there is much, much more to this holy man’s story… than his public years as the Vicar of Christ. God bless.

vatican.va/news_services/press/documentazione/documents/santopadre_biografie/giovanni_paolo_ii_biografia_breve_en.html

Please note that I am NOT arguing either for or against JP2’s canonization. That decision is up to the Congregation and to the current pope.

All I’m saying is that the checks and balances of the established process should not be circumvented for any person or for any reason.

If God wants JP2 to be declared a saint, then he will be, and we don’t need to be playing favorites.

And again I ask…what’s the big rush? Does JP2 have a train to catch?

 

[MarieVeronica]

Here is the story of another “fast track” saint. She now a Doctor of the Church… take a peek. The message I get… God does things in HIS time… not ours.

catholictradition.org/Lisieux/lisieux.htm

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Please note that I am NOT arguing either for or against JP2’s canonization. That decision is up to the Congregation and to the current pope.

All I’m saying is that the checks and balances of the established process should not be circumvented for any person or for any reason.

If God wants JP2 to be declared a saint, then he will be, and we don’t need to be playing favorites.

And again I ask…what’s the big rush? Does JP2 have a train to catch?

This may be exactly how God wants it.

Unless you have some information that the checks and balances process is being undermined in some way…

 

[Spirithound]

But the purpose of the investigation of a candidate by the Congregation for the Causes of Saints is to verify worthiness of canonization. The Congregation’s job is to dig MUCH deeper – behind the camera, so to speak.

In every investigation, we must hold out the possibility that the decision might be “no”.

But with JP2, I feel like his cause for sainthood is like a freight train. Completely unstoppable. Could you imagine the public uproar if the Congregation, for whatever reason, concluded that JP2 was not worthy of canonization?

1. The normal five year minimum timeframe is meant to give what was formally called the advocatus diaboli (“devil’s advocate”) within the Congregation adequate time to do its job and so as not to feel pressured. It also serves as a cooling-off period.

And again I ask…what’s the big rush? Does JP2 have a train to catch?

(quotes editted for space, hopefully I’m not misrepresenting anything)

I feel like you’re mixing up two issues here. First, is the cause for canonization unstoppable? and second, will the Congregation have enough time?. As to the first issue, the purpose of the 5-year waiting period is to allow for a cool-off time. Mother Teresa died 11 years ago, and her cult is running strong. JPII died 3 years ago, and I think the investigation will take long enough to fully encompass the traditional period. Nevertheless, both cults are going strong, so it seems irrelevant now whether or not the wait had been made (although I repeat that sympathize with your view). As to a matter of form, does the Congregation ever actually make a formal “no” pronouncement? It seems to me that a more likely course of action would be to just let it fade. I don’t think that the Congregation could possibly be bullied by the laity, but maybe I’m just idealistic there.
On whether the Congregation (or more specifically, the devil’s advocate) will have enough time, sure they will, they set the timeline. I was under the impression that even the devil’s advocate didn’t do anything in the traditional 5-yr period, since the candidate would not have been submitted to the Congregation yet (and in the case of a less public figure, would probably be unknown to them).
So, I agree with you that there shouldn’t be a rush, since the laity could potentially be edified by his example even before the Sanctus title, but this is an infallible declaration, so an error can’t be made.

 

[Joysong]

Lepanto,

I don’t think you are being completely honest with yourself about your true feelings in this matter. I suspect it deeply troubles you, or you wouldn’t have begun the thread. While you color it as wishing to avoid mistakes, be assured that there can be no mistake when a final declaration is made infallibly. You may rest in assurance when that proclamation is officially made, unless you don’t trust the Church – and I’m aware that a few don’t.

It might put your mind to rest if you read the new laws set forth by the Pope in 1983 for the causes of saints. With the extensive provisions in this document, I seriously doubt the magisterium will have loopholes to make a ‘mistake.’

I pray he will be canonized very rapidly, for he certainly is viewed as a saint by the majority of faithful who even NOW pray to him for his intercession.

 

[pnewton]

Of course I do not feel uncomfortable with the speed of his sainthood cause. The canonization of a saint is a joyous celebration for the Church. We accept that the Holy Father has a charism that protects him from declaring a saint unworthily, so what harm can come from the time frame that it takes to make such a decision?

 

[CB_Catholic]

I’m glad. But this is the first that I have ever heard of him. So, I have never been able to apply to him for his intercession. Perhaps I am alone in my ignorance,

I had read about him, but was not really familiar with his life until EWTN had a movie about him a few moinths ago. Fascinating story. He had a very large following during his life and after his death. It probably would be worth your effort to read about him. I hope they rerun that movie soon. I am planning to read more about him once I’ve finished the other hundred books I’ve promised myself to read.

 

[Schultzz]

Do you feel uncomfortable that JP2’s sainthood is being fast-tracked and that his canonization appears to be a forgone conclusion?

There might be a very important reason why those who are in the process of being considered worthy are being “fast-tracked” as you put it. Time may be running out for us for life as we know it. “Judgement time”? I don’t know, and I am not worried about it, but perhaps the Magisterium knows more than they would currently be willing to be made public. I would just say be like the Boy Scouts. “Be Prepared”.

 

[brigid12]

I do feel a little uncomfortable with it - and that’s strange since I converted to the Church during his pontificate and thought (and still think) he was a holy and lovable man. He did make some prudential errors I thought and neglected some administrative areas that seemed important. I just hope this increased speed isn’t due to being politically pc (I wasn’t the only protestant that liked JPII). But I am most certainly not one to judge! If/when(?) he is canonized it will be by the infallible authority of the Pope and that is one of the things I was looking for when I converted.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

No. It makes more sense to me than canonizing someone after everyone who knew them is dead. I like knowing that someone who lived in the same circumstances I do was still able to live a life of heroic virtue. Of course, we already know this about JPII and Mother Theresa. Canonization doesn’t mean someone had no faults or only made perfect decisions, only means that, in spite of that, they allowed God to work through them.

 

[elt1956]

There is no reason to feel uncomfortable about any soul on the fast track to sainthood.

For example, suppose Ralph (a very good man) died and was placed on the fast track. So 9 weeks later St. Ralph has his very own feast day (yes, I’m exaggerating).

Now, unbeknownst to the Church, a mistake was made. Ralph is whiling his days away in a particularly unpleasant spot in purgatory. But the whole Church is pleading for his intercessions on their behalf.

No problem. Souls in Purgatory intercede for us all the time. Sooner or later Ralph will make it through Purgatory and enter into the beatific vision. No harm, no foul, and nobody outside of heaven is any the wiser to what at worse is an ecclesial bueaucratic oops.

Speaking of red tape, or oherwise, does anyone know what he qualifications are for one to be declared a Saint? I think instances of miracles done in the name of the one being endorsed for Sainthood is one. Any others??? Peace.

 

[down_under]

Speaking of red tape, or oherwise, does anyone know what he qualifications are for one to be declared a Saint? I think instances of miracles done in the name of the one being endorsed for Sainthood is one. Any others??? Peace.

now that someone has asked something intelligent…

the miracles in question only count (and here is the catch) if they occurred after the saints death. fast track all you like. you cannot get over this particular hurtle without the real thing. and you guessed it it has to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. This is where all of those wonderful devils advocates come into play. and no, no one in purgatory is going to be working any miracles.

 

[harinkj]

Fast tracking sainthood seems to me to be a bad thing. It gives the impression that political reasons are behind it.

• kathie :bowdown:

 

[IvanKaramozov]

The “popular acclaim” for the late Pontiff, which was so evident at his death and particularly at his funeral, was a clear indication of the widespread belief that John Paul II was a model of Christian virtue.

I met a Polish Holocaust Survivor once,

“Now Pope John Paul, I’ve never seen anything like him(something like that) HE LOVED EVERYONE!!!”

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Fast tracking sainthood seems to me to be a bad thing. It gives the impression that political reasons are behind it.

• kathie :bowdown:

An earlier poster hit the nail on the head, though, when pointing out that the only thing “fast tracked” - that we know of - about John Paul II is that a few years were shaved off of the waiting period before his cause could be opened. Despite all that, his cause is bound to take far longer to process than, say, a small-town cloistered nun. Why? Because the congregation has to go over everything we know about a person with a fine-toothed comb. Everything a person wrote must be examined to judge its theological content (Fr. Andrew Apostoli says if you ever want to be canonized don’t write a lot of books), all sorts of testimony about the person’s life and character must be reviewed. Just think about how much more material John Paul and his life are bound to furnish the congregation. Also, there’s no fast-tracking miracles. Either they happen or they don’t. There’s really only so much you can do to speed up the process, and that ain’t much.

 

[Arlene]

I wonder if this “fast tracking” is a function of the increased speed of communication in this modern era. In days past, someone very worthy of sainthood may have only been known in his own small area and the process of investigation very lenghty. Even Popes who became saints were probably largely unknown to most Catholics. They knew who their Pope was, but didn’t see his image on TV and the internet every day, didn’t follow news reports of every little thing he did, every speech he made. Not everything was newsworthy, and even if it was, it could take months to filter down to the masses. But John Paul was a household image. With communication being instantaneous, there are no long waits for reports or information. I can see where the process will be greatly speeded up from now on, not only for John Paul.