Do you feel uncomfortable that JP2's sainthood is being fast-tracked and that his canonization appears to be a forgone conclusion?

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It used to be that the Church selected saints by acclamation. The assumption being that if you convinced that many people of the odor of sanctitiy, the Holy Spirit must be behind it.

The canonization of Pohn Paul the great is going to take a great deal of scholarly reflection. But I have no doubt, He will be St John Paul the Great, Doctor of the Church.
 
Al Masetti:
It has been customary to wait 50 years after a person’s death before canonizing that person. It allows time for all of the relevant information to emerge.

No reason not to follow that procedure in the case of Pope John Paul II. We have no shortage of heroes and saints to emulate.

If memory serves, St. Thomas Aquinas was canonized in 49 years. But he was the exception.
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Al, St. Thomas was not the exception. Due to popular acclaim by the universal Church, St. Therese, who became known when her Story of a Soul was circulated world-wide, was canonized only 27 years after her death.

I would say that her canonization is truly a miracle of grace, since Therese was unknown even in her convent. She choose specifically to be trod underfoot. There should be no doubt that the Holy Spirit moved the faithful to recognize and acclaim her a saint.
catholic-forum.com/saints/stt02002.htm
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His Eminence, Cardinal Vico, Ponent of the Cause, submitted for discussion the question of the heroism of the Servant of God in practicing the theological virtues of Faith, Hope, and Charity, as also the cardinal virtues of Prudence, Fortitude, Justice, and Temperance. The Cardinals and Consulters present gave their vote, and after delaying in order to obtain further light from God, Our Predecessor promulgated his decision on the eve of the Assumption, to the effect that the Venerable Thérèse had practiced the above virtues to an heroic degree.
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The Church always examines the virtues, not visions, apparitions, or extraordinary phenomena. [Just a side note for those who think these qualify for sainthood.]

Carole
 
Joysong said:
The Church always examines the virtues, not visions, apparitions, or extraordinary phenomena. [Just a side note for those who think these qualify for sainthood.]

Carole
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Actually, the Church examines all of the above…the virtues, the apparitions, the miracles. The process followed for canonization can be found by clicking the link below…just in case you’re right & some think that an “unsaintly” person can be canonized SOLELY because of an approved miracle or apparition.
( However, one does wonder why Christ or Mary would appear before someone who was not an extremely holy person.)

THE DECLARATION OF SAINTHOOD
The Catholic Church’s Acknowledgment of Extraordinary Holiness:

arlingtonregia.com/legionsaints/canonize.html
 
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CradleCath:
Originally Posted by Joysong
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The Church always examines the virtues, not visions, apparitions, or extraordinary phenomena. [Just a side note for those who think these qualify for sainthood.]
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Actually, the Church examines all of the above…the virtues, the apparitions, the miracles. The process followed for canonization can be found by clicking the link below…just in case you’re right & some think that an “unsaintly” person can be canonized SOLELY because of an approved miracle or apparition.
( However, one does wonder why Christ or Mary would appear before someone who was not an extremely holy person.)
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Christ or Mary may appear to an ordinary unholy person, who often becomes extraordinary and holy because of the encounter. Nicodemus, Zaccheus, fishermen, to name a few.
The basis for this judgment of extraordinary holiness within this “servant of God” may be eyewitness observation of one’s outstanding virtue, the heroic witness of martyrdom, or the association of this person’s intercession with some apparent miracle. [NOT the miracle of the apparition per se, but that which is required for proof by the Tribunal, and which occurs after their death.]
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My point was that the Causes of Saints is not reliant solely upon the isolated apparation(s). Lucia (Fatima) only received apparitions for six months, but lived to be 90! So obviously the Church will look at her life in detail for the remaining years afterwards, rather than the very limited time period of apparitions. Having an apparition or two is no guarantee of sanctity thereafter.

Same with Berndadette. A few apparitions, then months/years of living out her life in a convent, under obedience to her superiors and constant charity towards her sisters.
 
Joysong said:
Christ or Mary may appear to an ordinary unholy person, who often becomes extraordinary and holy because of the encounter. Nicodemus, Zaccheus, fishermen, to name a few.

My point was that the Causes of Saints is not reliant solely upon the isolated apparation(s). Lucia (Fatima) only received apparitions for six months, but lived to be 90! So obviously the Church will look at her life in detail for the remaining years afterwards, rather than the very limited time period of apparitions. Having an apparition or two is no guarantee of sanctity thereafter.

Same with Berndadette. A few apparitions, then months/years of living out her life in a convent, under obedience to her superiors and constant charity towards her sisters.
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There are probably millions of saints; tens of millions. Anyone who is with Jesus in Heaven is a saint.
But very few have had a full canonization and fewer get calendarized.

The very first Christian saint was a real sleazeball … the “Good Thief”. Probably a sociopath (according to prominent clinical psychologist Fr. Benedict Groeschel … private conversation). But Jesus said, “This day you will be with Me in Paradise”. St. Dismas, according to tradition.

So, make sure you stay or get in to the State of Grace and get the sacrament of what we used to call “Extreme Unction” before you die. I undestand that in that sacrament the words are a little different … the priest can “absolve you of ALL your sins”.

Somewhat later, we got Saint Longinius (sp?) … the guy who was in charge of Jesus’ crucifixion.

Go figure.

God is Infinite. And I’m just a microbe. He is the CreatOR; and I am a mere fabrication. I hope He has mercy on little me.
 
CradleCath said:
( However, one does wonder why Christ or Mary would appear before someone who was not an extremely holy person.)

]
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Why would Jesus take St. Dismas with Him to Heaven ON THAT SAME DAY!!!

ONE DAY!!!

The ways of God are indeed inscrutable.

Why indeed would Christ or Mary appear to someone who was not an extremely holy person, indeed.

We just don’t know.

Let’s say, I have an IQ of 100.

Let’s say, Bill Gates has an IQ of 200.

Let’s say, Einstein had an IQ of 300.

So, what is God’s IQ? 400? or is it Infinite?

I we assume 400, then it makes sense to question why Jesus would appear to some sinner or to some jerky kid in the tail gunner’s position of a bomber in combat.

But if we assume Infinite Intelligence … then it causes me to crumble in humility.

There is no way for me to figure it out.
 
Lepanto said:
Do you feel uncomfortable that JP2’s sainthood is being fast-tracked and that his canonization appears to be a forgone conclusion?

I do. Sainthood is too important a matter to be playing favorites (or at least that’s how it seems). There is a system in place for determining canonicity, and it should be followed without exception.
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John Paul II actually changed the process of canonization so that it was possible for the Church to canonize the number of saints that it did under his pontificate. Benedict XVI suspended the “five-year” waiting rule for John Paul II because of the special public circumstances that warrant it. I have always looked upon John Paul II as a great saint while here on earth, so, I do not feel that his canonization process of being fast-tracked in the sense of something that the faithful do not want. In fact, the majority favor it. Also, the system determining canonicity can be changed when warranted; it is not set in stone and should remain flexible.

In the case of John Paul II, the process began where it always has begun - at the diocesan level; in his case, in Poland. Once that investigation is concluded, all the necessary material is then sent to Rome where it is gone over with a fine-tooth comb. I don’t know if the diocesan inquiry is completed yet with regard to John Paul II, but when it is, it will be forwarded to the Vatican. In the meantime, the committee which has the responsibility of investigating his papacy is working on that aspect at the present time. When it is completed, both will be compared and a final approval for sainthood will be made. There were many reported ‘miracles’ recorded about John Paul II as he traveled all over the world, but the Vatican always played these down to such an extent that they were not known to the general public.

No other pope in modern history was as beloved by the world as John Paul II. The Holy Spirit guided and protected him, and he was truly a shepherd among shepherds. We have been blessed with many incredible saints in our lifetime: Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Padre Pio, and, hopefully soon, John Paul II.
 
His Holiness, Blessed John Paul ll is already with God in heaven so to make him a Saint is a mute point:thumbsup:
 
I certainly don’t understand how anyone could doubt JP II saintlyness…He was in the public eye for almost his entire life , and one of our long lived Popes

He was instrumental in the fall of the Berlin wall and communism in the old soviet union…her practically liberated Poland single handedly, and without a shot be fired

We saw him publicly forgive the man that tried to murder him…His whole life has been a prayer…we aren’t talking about someone who was ever controversial…

The answer is a resounding no…tell me why should I be?..:confused:
 
redrosetea said:
I certainly don’t understand how anyone could doubt JP II saintlyness…He was in the public eye for almost his entire life , and one of our long lived Popes

He was instrumental in the fall of the Berlin wall and communism in the old soviet union…her practically liberated Poland single handedly, and without a shot be fired

We saw him publicly forgive the man that tried to murder him…His whole life has been a prayer…we aren’t talking about someone who was ever controversial…

The answer is a resounding no…tell me why should I be?..:confused:
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My point all through this thread is that we although shouldn’t deny anything if it’s valid, but likewise we shouldn’t presume anything. Too many people have presumed sainthood and already canonized JP2 in their own minds.
 
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Lepanto:
Too many people have presumed sainthood and already canonized JP2 in their own minds.
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Are you aware that the Holy Spirit helps the faithful to know interiorly that a person is a holy saint? As I mentioned a few posts ago, St. Therese was virtually unknown, yet in a matter of a few short years, the entire world was aware of her virtues and acclaiming her sanctity.

It might help to realize this was also the case with Saint Pope Pius X, beginning with the faithful who recognized him as a saint long before the process had declared him “Venerable.” This title was bestowed only 29 years after his death in 1914.
Although Pius X’s canonization took place in 1954, the events leading up to it began immediately with his death. A letter of 24 September 1916 by Monsignor Leo, Bishop of Nicotera and Tropea, referred to Pius X as “a great Saint and a great Pope.” To accommodate the large number of pilgrims seeking access to his tomb, in excess of what the crypt would hold, “a small metal cross was set into the floor of the basilica,” which read Pius Papa X, “so that the faithful might kneel down directly above the tomb” [6]. Masses were held near his tomb until 1930.
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On 12 February 1943, a further development of Pius X’s cause was achieved, when he was declared to have displayed heroic virtues, gaining therefore the title “Venerable”.
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_X
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You may resist the “fast-tracking” of Pope John Paul II’s process, but if the Holy Spirit desires to elevate him speedily to the ranks of the saints, who can oppose it? Your cautionary comments suggest, IMO, an deep hesitation to see this title bestowed upon him.

I am sadly aware of the dislike of him held by many traditionalists and have seen the websites that attempt to discredit him.
 
Joysong said:
You may resist the “fast-tracking” of Pope John Paul II’s process, but if the Holy Spirit desires to elevate him speedily to the ranks of the saints, who can oppose it? Your cautionary comments suggest, IMO, an deep hesitation to see this title bestowed upon him.

I am sadly aware of the dislike of him held by many traditionalists and have seen the websites that attempt to discredit him.
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Despite probably 10 posts explaining my reasons for exercising restraint and going through JP2’s investigation process with a level head, some here continue to play mind reader and impute motives. :rolleyes:

Not only are you pretending to read my mind, but you are claiming to read the Holy Spirit’s by suggesting that “Holy Spirit desires to elevate him speedily to the ranks of the saints.” JP2’s canonization is simply not for either of us to decide. It’s up to the Congregation for the Causes of Saints

If JP2 is named a saint, I will rejoice. If not, I will humbly accept the Congregation’s decision.
 
lampstand said:
There are some people who are regarded as saints even though they lived prior to the implementation of the formal canonization process. These people in the days of the very early Church aren’t less saintly-- there used to be an element of the process or claim called the acclaim of the people, or something to that effect. Meaning, if there were a cult of adoration, the people reported calling on the saint for intercession and they received such, etc., the person was then looked on as a saint by the Church without having to “go backwards” through the process of a trial. Did we have canonization hearings for St. Patrick? How about for the Apostles? I don’t think they had to wait… :rolleyes:
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You mis-spoke.

There are (and have never been) “cults of adoration” in the Catholic Church in refernce to Saints.
 
Lepanto said:
But what if the Congregation for the Causes of Saints, upon completing JP2’s investigation, says “No” ??

Believe it or not, it is possible.

What would the public reaction be? Would JP2’s admirers accept the decision? :confused:
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John Paul’s admirers would certainly accept the decision since they have never been given to extremism, unlike the often extremist among Catholics who are either progressive or traditional.
 
I for one would love to see the canonization of Pope John Paul II during my life time. I do believe it will be forthcoming.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
Well, all I know is when I tried to pray for John Paul II’s soul right after his death, I found myself using the words,

"Dear God,

Please bless Saint Pope John Paul II … "

:o

~~ the phoenix
 
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