Do you find a problem with Mary as an Intercessor?

[R_C]

You present a thoughtful defense of historic Catholic belief that a Lutheran would not argue against.

You are very kind. It is my most sincere desire to beg for as many graces as we can receive for a suffering world, and if this includes the intercession of our brothers and sisters in heaven, then may many others join us in prayer for this purpose…though ultimately the Good Lord already knows what we need…

 

[Boston]

Anyone in heaven can be an intercessor, as long as one always realizes that the intercessor is not the source of the power that responds to the prayer. That power always belongs to the one true God.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Anyone in heaven can be an intercessor, as long as one always realizes that the intercessor is not the source of the power that responds to the prayer. That power always belongs to the one true God.

 

[Justmyself777]

Nice post. Will use this as one of my reference

Holy Mary Mother of God, pray FOR US sinners, now and at the hour of our death, AMEN.

 

[IgnatianAthlete]

Going to chip in here. I personally do believe in saintly intercession, and I pray a daily rosary as well as in-theory daily devotions to St. Christopher and St. Dymphna, but I feel that the dissenting party on this subject is exceedingly under-represented in this thread, so I’ll play devil’s advocate for a moment and provide the usual arguments.

First of all, assume an entirely, fundamentally reformed position on the relationship between Scripture and Tradition, which is this: Tradition, while not necessary bad in itself, carries no doctrinal weight whatsoever. The Bible is the source and guide for all Truth. Anything which is not in the Bible is outside of the Truth; perhaps not incompatible with the Truth, but certainly not within it. Ignoring the obvious problem that the Trinity is at no point explicitly stated or explained in Scripture, but only implied, that is more or less the position. So any kind of quote from the Church Fathers is a totally unmeaningful argument.

At no point is there any example of saintly intercession in the canonical Bible (which does not include the Deuterocanonical works; or if it does, they are not considered inspired, but only “useful”). There is no Scriptural basis for believing that prayers of the living are heard by the dead; unless you make a logical jump from the passage in Revelation where the robed men offer up prayers as incense (I believe I have the gist of that right; I haven’t read Revelation in a while). To believe that Saints have such an ability is a-Biblical; and I’m sorry to whoever said so above, but in my opinion and most definitely from the position of this argument, the presence of departed prophets at a blatant miraculous event such as the Transfiguration has no similarity to saints praying for the living from Eternity.

So, putting the argument in propositional terms,

1. At no point in the Bible does anybody pray for a saint’s intercession.
2. At no point in the Bible is it stated that saints can hear the prayers of the living, directed to themselves or otherwise.
3. All which is founded in Tradition does not carry doctrinal weight, except for how well that Tradition can be supported by Scripture. If a Tradition does not originate in Scripture, or if it cannot be adequately defended in Scripture, it is incompatible with the true, Biblical Christian faith.
4. Therefore, as saintly intercession cannot be supported by Scripture either directly or indirectly (at least not without taking a very long jump of interpretation which even to me, a believer, seems unlikely), it is incompatible with the true, Biblical Christian faith.

The argument can go deeper than that, but that should be enough to get my point across. The question of whether Mary and other saints are intercessors is not merely a question of intercession; it’s deeper than that. The question at hand is related to the more fundamental question of the relationship between Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition, and in order for the former question to be adequately addressed, the latter has to be resolved first.

And that’s more or less what I have to say on the matter.

 

[PRmerger]

First of all, assume an entirely, fundamentally reformed position on the relationship between Scripture and Tradition, which is this: Tradition, while not necessary bad in itself, carries no doctrinal weight whatsoever.

This, IA, is an untenable position for anyone who accepts the canon of the NT. This is a doctrine that you accept based on one thing, and one thing only: Sacred Tradition.

The Bible is the source and guide for all Truth. Anything which is not in the Bible is outside of the Truth; perhaps not incompatible with the Truth, but certainly not within it.

Untenable: The canon of the NT.

QED.

 

[IgnatianAthlete]

This, IA, is an untenable position for anyone who accepts the canon of the NT. This is a doctrine that you accept based on one thing, and one thing only: Sacred Tradition.

Untenable: The canon of the NT.

QED.

Well yeah, the position is a little self-defeating, but that’s pretty much how it goes.

 

[Nicea325]

Going to chip in here. I personally do believe in saintly intercession, and I pray a daily rosary as well as in-theory daily devotions to St. Christopher and St. Dymphna, but I feel that the dissenting party on this subject is exceedingly under-represented in this thread, so I’ll play devil’s advocate for a moment and provide the usual arguments.

First of all, assume an entirely, fundamentally reformed position on the relationship between Scripture and Tradition, which is this: Tradition, while not necessary bad in itself, carries no doctrinal weight whatsoever. The Bible is the source and guide for all Truth. Anything which is not in the Bible is outside of the Truth; perhaps not incompatible with the Truth, but certainly not within it. Ignoring the obvious problem that the Trinity is at no point explicitly stated or explained in Scripture, but only implied, that is more or less the position. So any kind of quote from the Church Fathers is a totally unmeaningful argument.

At no point is there any example of saintly intercession in the canonical Bible (which does not include the Deuterocanonical works; or if it does, they are not considered inspired, but only “useful”). There is no Scriptural basis for believing that prayers of the living are heard by the dead; unless you make a logical jump from the passage in Revelation where the robed men offer up prayers as incense (I believe I have the gist of that right; I haven’t read Revelation in a while). To believe that Saints have such an ability is a-Biblical; and I’m sorry to whoever said so above, but in my opinion and most definitely from the position of this argument, the presence of departed prophets at a blatant miraculous event such as the Transfiguration has no similarity to saints praying for the living from Eternity.

So, putting the argument in propositional terms,

1. At no point in the Bible does anybody pray for a saint’s intercession.
2. At no point in the Bible is it stated that saints can hear the prayers of the living, directed to themselves or otherwise.
3. All which is founded in Tradition does not carry doctrinal weight, except for how well that Tradition can be supported by Scripture. If a Tradition does not originate in Scripture, or if it cannot be adequately defended in Scripture, it is incompatible with the true, Biblical Christian faith.
4. Therefore, as saintly intercession cannot be supported by Scripture either directly or indirectly (at least not without taking a very long jump of interpretation which even to me, a believer, seems unlikely), it is incompatible with the true, Biblical Christian faith.

The argument can go deeper than that, but that should be enough to get my point across. The question of whether Mary and other saints are intercessors is not merely a question of intercession; it’s deeper than that. The question at hand is related to the more fundamental question of the relationship between Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition, and in order for the former question to be adequately addressed, the latter has to be resolved first.

And that’s more or less what I have to say on the matter.

Really? Show me where the Bible clearly teaches this position? Where does it declare it is THE source and guide for ALL Truth?

By declaring it is “the” source you are confining ALL TRUTH to the Bible strictly,thus show me where Jesus teaches such a position?

 

[Winston_Smith]

Interesting discussion. I think it’s wonderful, whereas previously I had rejected it out of hand. But here’s something I’ve often wondered… To put things in the most extreme terms to get the root of the question, Is it “ok” for a Catholic convert (as I hope to become someday) to pray most often only to the Father through Jesus, if that’s what they are comfortable with? I realize this may come across as a really dumb question, I have alot to absorb, but nevertheless would appreciate the response. Thank you all, this is very helpful.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Its often lost on protestants who are convinced of this being wrong that in their prayers for other people they are neccessarily by definition intercessors. Of course I think they replace the word mentioned in John’s epistle I believe, that is “mediator,” and replace it with intercessor as if these were one and the some thing. Christ is the only mediator, but he is most certaintly not the only intercessor.

 

[Faithdancer]

First of all, I don’t think that the concept of Jesus as intercessor is wrong as he, himself is God. Therefore as God and the final judge, he can’t be an intercessor.

One priest gave me a wonderful analogy of the role of Mary as intercessor which I am going to share. Imagine that you have an issue as a citizen of the US and need to talk to.the President to ask him to help you. Do you think.that you can simply show up at the white house and say, hey MR. president come and help me with this problem? The president has a million things to worry about, and about a million people who just like you want him to help the. Why should he give him priority over everything else? However, let’s say you know the President’s mother. Don’t you think that if you ask the President’s mother to go to the President and ask him the favor or helping you, you will get help quicker because the President is going to listen to what his mother asks him?

Works.very similar with Mary. People tend to forget that Jesus is God not their high.school buddy. We are nothing than simple humans and is very likely that God has a million of more important things to do. But Mary is his mother. Remember the first miracle in Cana, it happened just because Mary asked for it. In the same way if you ask for Mary’s intercesion, there is a better likelihood that God is going to do it just because is his mother asking him to do something.

Sorry but I have to point out that your analogy is way off. God is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. He can hear my prayers, and your prayers, and the prayers of a billion other human beings simultaneously and instantaneously. Your analogy puts limits on God, who has no limits. Before Mary could get close enough to whisper your prayer into God’s ear, God has already heard your prayer and countless others, instantly. In fact, He has heard them before they are even thought or spoken. He has already decided what He will do before your prayers are thought or spoken.

Your scenario sounds like something that might occur on Mt. Olympus, between one of the Greek gods and Zeus. It is totally at odds with Christian theology.

 

[KathleenGee]

Actually, it is part of the reality of being in Church and enjoying the active presence of the communion of saints…not in the concept like we are alone before God.

 

[MartinJordan]

Your scenario sounds like something that might occur on Mt. Olympus, between one of the Greek gods and Zeus. It is totally at odds with Christian theology.

Ephesians 6:19 (NIV)

Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me** so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel**

So why did Paul ask others to pray for him? Surely God knows Paul’s own longing to be brave to speak in the Spirit. No?

*Actually, it is part of the reality of being in Church and enjoying the active presence of the communion of saints…not in the concept like we are alone before God. *

Ephesians 6:18: And** pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people.
**

MJ

 

[Faithdancer]

“Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.” (Matthew 6:8-12)

Nothing in there about praying to Mary, or to saints. Jesus told us to pray in exactly one way. Can we pray for each other? Of course, but does that give our prayers more “clout” with God, or gain His attention any faster? To say with certainty that it does is to anthropomorphize God and to detract from His omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence. God is immovable and unknowable and we are all abject sinners in his hands. The only reason we aren’t in hell fire at this very moment is His infinite mercy, and only our repentance and our total faith and obedience can possibly mitigate His wrath.

Works Cited: God (2011-06-09). The Holy Bible, King James Version (KJV) with Search Every Verse Navigation (Kindle Locations 28850-28855). Kindle Edition.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

“Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.” (Matthew 6:8-12)

Nothing in there about praying to Mary, or to saints. Jesus told us to pray in exactly one way. Can we pray for each other? Of course, but does that give our prayers more “clout” with God, or gain His attention any faster? To say with certainty that it does is to anthropomorphize God and to detract from His omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence. God is immovable and unknowable and we are all abject sinners in his hands. The only reason we aren’t in hell fire at this very moment is His infinite mercy, and only our repentance and our total faith and obedience can possibly mitigate His wrath.

Works Cited: God (2011-06-09). The Holy Bible, King James Version (KJV) with Search Every Verse Navigation (Kindle Locations 28850-28855). Kindle Edition.

So because a specific doctrine cannot be explicitely found in the bible therefore we are to reject it? Since when?

 

[aidanbradypop]

Nothing in there about praying to Mary, or to saints. Jesus told us to pray in exactly one way. Can we pray for each other? Of course, but does that give our prayers more “clout” with God, or gain His attention any faster? To say with certainty that it does is to anthropomorphize God and to detract from His omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence. God is immovable and unknowable and we are all abject sinners in his hands. The only reason we aren’t in hell fire at this very moment is His infinite mercy, and only our repentance and our total faith and obedience can possibly mitigate His wrath.

If you ask anyone to pray for you, they are intercedding on your behalf to God. If you ask me to pray for you, you are placing me between you and God. That would make me an intercessor.

The bolded part is very Catholic of you to say. Only by his love and mercy we may gain eternal life with him.

So if you are against Catholics asking the Saints to pray for us (who are alive more than we are) then you must also be against asking others on Earth to pray for you as well.

 

[Faithdancer]

If you ask anyone to pray for you, they are intercedding on your behalf to God. If you ask me to pray for you, you are placing me between you and God. That would make me an intercessor.

The bolded part is very Catholic of you to say. Only by his love and mercy we may gain eternal life with him.

So if you are against Catholics asking the Saints to pray for us (who are alive more than we are) then you must also be against asking others on Earth to pray for you as well.

Do you believe God can be influenced? How did Jesus tell us to pray?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Do you believe God can be influenced?

Is it Biblical? Did Abraham Plead for Sodom?

 

[aidanbradypop]

Do you believe God can be influenced? How did Jesus tell us to pray?

Please do not answer a question with another question. The conversation does not go further. If you are or have ever been a member of a prayer group then you are asking all of those members to intercede for you, which then makes them an intercessor between you and God. Have you gone your entire life without ever praying for someone or asked another to pray for you?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Do you believe God can be influenced?

Faith what happened here, was Abraham …“interceding”

26 The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”

27 Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”

“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”

29 Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”

He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”

30 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”

He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”

31 Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”

He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”

32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”

He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”

33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.