Do you follow Church Teaching?

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BTW Yaqubos, do you believe in the Trinity (3 persons in One God) or the Incarnation (Jesus Christ was God who became man)? I ask this because the vast majority of Christians (Catholic, Orthodox and almost all Protestants) accept these doctrines. If you do, please give me the book, chapter and verse where I can find them. I do not want “proof texts,” I want to know where I can find those words in black & white in Holy Scripture. After all, if Scripture is the sole rule of faith, they should be in there. Besides, if you are not going to accept Catholic doctrine because it isn’t spelled out in the Bible, I should hold you to the same standard.

Another question: In your church (or Bible Study), if there is a dispute between members on doctrinal issues, who is the final arbiter?
For instance…
Who is Jesus- is he God incarnate, merely a man, or an angel?
Are there three persons in One God, or is ‘Father, Son and Holy Ghost’ merely different titles for the same person?
Is Baptism really necessary for salvation, or is it merely some form of membership initiation?
For that matter, how should we baptize: In the name of the father, Son and Holy Spirit, or simply in the name of Jesus, as some sects do? Also, should we baptize infants, or is that just foolishness?
The Lord’s Supper- is Jesus really present (as Catholics, Orthodox, and even Lutherans and Episcopalians believe) and provide real grace, or is it simply a memorial supper?
Why don’t all Christians worship on the Jewish Sabbath? Some sects believe worshiping on a Sunday is the Mark of the Beast.

Who has the final say on these issues (not to mention other issues such as morals, church governance and worship)? Don’t say Scripture, because both sides on an issue can stack up Scripture quotes to the ceiling.
Jesus founded a church, not a Bible society. he gave his apostles authority to teach and preach and to make binding doctrinal statements (like the council of Jerusalem in Acts 9). Did this teaching authority pass from the Apostles when they died to the Bible? I don’t think so.
 
Matthew 28:19-20
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold I am with you always, until the end of the age.

No books here, just commands, and observances

John 21:24-25
It is this disciple who testifies to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true. There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.

Sounds like there is more to me, than just what is written. But then somone has to decide. You may not agree with me, but then who is right, and by what authority?
 
Peace!
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RNRobert:
BTW Yaqubos, do you believe in the Trinity (3 persons in One God) or the Incarnation (Jesus Christ was God who became man)? I ask this because the vast majority of Christians (Catholic, Orthodox and almost all Protestants) accept these doctrines. If you do, please give me the book, chapter and verse where I can find them. I do not want “proof texts,” I want to know where I can find those words in black & white in Holy Scripture. After all, if Scripture is the sole rule of faith, they should be in there. Besides, if you are not going to accept Catholic doctrine because it isn’t spelled out in the Bible, I should hold you to the same standard.
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You don’t understand what listening only to God means. So no need to argue in vain.

You just want to add human teachings by saying that you can’t understand God.

By the way, who wrote the Bible? ( I ask this because you say that the authority of the apostles didn’t pass to the Bible… ).

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
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YAQUBOS:
Peace!

You don’t understand what listening only to God means. So no need to argue in vain.

You just want to add human teachings by saying that you can’t understand God.

In Love,
Yaqubos†
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I am not adding human teaching to the Bible. What I am saying is that the Bible CANNOT interpret iself. If the Bible is so easy to understand and is simply a matter of listening to God, then why are there 30,000+ denominations who all claim to listen to God and follow the Bible, but cannot agree on what the Bible says. God is not the Author of Confusion! This is why I left the division and confusion of Protestantism for the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Christ.
 
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YAQUBOS:
By the way, who wrote the Bible? ( I ask this because you say that the authority of the apostles didn’t pass to the Bible… ).
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YES. The Apostles wrote the Bible, but if you read the book of Acts, the Apostles made decisions regarding the church (i.e. creating the office of deacons, a church council to decide how to admit Gentiles, etc.). The Bible, as holy and edifying as it is, was not written as a constitution or catechism. So, if there is a problem in the church (and problems will come), who is there to make decisions if the Apostles themselves are dead? Did the Apostles leave the Bible for us just so Christians could take an every man for himself approach. You talk about listening to God, but if two people say contradicting things, yet both claim to be “following the Bible and listening to God,” How is one to know who is right?

Another question: Suppose one is illiterate, or cannot afford a Bible? Keep in mind that this was the situation for most Christians for 15 centuries before the printing press was invented, and remains true for many today.

One final comment: The problem, as I see it, with much of Protestantism, is that it expects the church to be static, to remain exactly as it was in the first century, and anything added after that is seen as a “corruption.” This, I think, is a warped view of the Church and Scripture. The Catholic church teaches that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle, and calls herself the “Servant of Scripture” (Vatican II, Dei Verbum). She does not add to the deposit of faith left by the Apostles. Her various teachings over the centuries, are not “adding to the Bible” but are either the result of gaining greater understanding of that deposit of faith, or the result of the need to clarify doctrine against error. Remember, the New Testament is a first-century document written primarily to address first century problems. The sacred writers were never intending to write about every possible heresy, doctinal problem moral, problem or church governance issue that might come up in 2,000 years (many problems they could never even have imagined). This is why Christ gave us a CHURCH: to safeguard Scripture (yes the Holy Spirit protects Scripture from Satan, but he does so thru the Church), and to ensure right doctrine.
 
Peace and Love be with you!
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RNRobert:
This is why I left the division and confusion of Protestantism for the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Christ.
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And who says that the Roman Church is that One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church?.. Now we will begin a circular thinking…🙂 And you know why? Because FAITH is lacking on your part. You want to believe humans rather than God. You want a human authority!

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Peace!
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RNRobert:
The Bible, as holy and edifying as it is, was not written as a constitution or catechism. So, if there is a problem in the church (and problems will come), who is there to make decisions if the Apostles themselves are dead?
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Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is a Divine PERSON, and not just a power? Do you believe that He is in all believers?

It seems that you lost your faith in God, my friend. Repent, and come to Jesus Christ.
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RNRobert:
Did the Apostles leave the Bible for us just so Christians could take an every man for himself approach. You talk about listening to God, but if two people say contradicting things, yet both claim to be “following the Bible and listening to God,” How is one to know who is right?
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Why do you insist on following HUMANS, my friend??? Are you born again? If yes, so you have the Spirit, and He will lead you in all Truth, and He will not let you be confused in vanities.

N.B.: I am NOT protestant. I repeat this again and again, because people here are talking with me as if I was a protestant. I belong to the One, Holy, Apostolic, Orthodox, Catholic, Evangelical Church of Christ.
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RNRobert:
Another question: Suppose one is illiterate, or cannot afford a Bible? Keep in mind that this was the situation for most Christians for 15 centuries before the printing press was invented, and remains true for many today.
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This is one of the reasons why the sin of the Church leaders is greater when they didn’t teach right teaching! For they were blinds, leading blinds!
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RNRobert:
One final comment: The problem, as I see it, with much of Protestantism, is that it expects the church to be static, to remain exactly as it was in the first century, and anything added after that is seen as a “corruption.”
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Ok. So? What do we have ( me and you ) with the problems of the Protestantism??!!! We want to know the Will of God, no? The Will of God is that the Church be LIVING in the Holy Spirit.

Have faith, my friend, have faith in God.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

theophilus_agape@hotmail.com
 
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YAQUBOS:
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is a Divine PERSON, and not just a power? Do you believe that He is in all believers?
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Dear Yaqubos,

For myself, I believe this as much as I believe anything involving God. Many do not seem to think that Jesus was intending that we all have the Spirit within us who will “teach us all things,” or that this applies to the Church leadership and not the membership at large. What do you say to that?

I heard one theory that a graven image of God’s kingdom is that it is a heavenly monarchy where distributed control could not possibly apply. Jesus upset that OT image and when He was accused of blasphemy and almost stoned, asked, “is it not written in your law that ‘you are all Gods?’” It was inconceivable that Jesus could speak on His own authority because with their mindset no man should have any authority outside the designated heirarchy. Jesus and his disciples often “flaunted” the heirarchy, showing that in application, the law is much more,uhh, shall I say “relative” than it is often given credit for. It isn’t that Jesus permitted anything; on matters involving love, forgiveness, anger, and adultery he actually showed that matters of the heart were just as important as properly legal external behavior.

Are you trying to suggest that some Catholics deny their own divinity, and deny that while fully human, we share in the divinity of God through adoption into Christ’s family as His brothers? If so, maybe I’m starting to understand a little bit of what you are saying.

Alan
 
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YAQUBOS:
Peace and Love be with you!

And who says that the Roman Church is that One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church?.. Now we will begin a circular thinking…🙂 And you know why? Because FAITH is lacking on your part. You want to believe humans rather than God. You want a human authority!

In Love,
Yaqubos†
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On the contrary. Faith is not lacking on my part. Indeed, I have more faith as a Catholic than I ever did before. About “wanting” a human authority, it’s not about what I “want” but what Jesus commanded. He gave Peter the keys to the kingdom with power to bind and loose. He told the apostles, “He who hears you, hears Me, and he who rejects you rejects Me and the One who sent Me.” From reading Scriptures, I find it obvious that he created a Church with a teaching authority.

BTW, I do believe the Holy Spirit is a person, and that he dwells in all believers. But, if that is sufficient, why did Jesus bother with the Apostles? He could have sent the Holy Spirit all over to convert the world without the bother of missionaries. Indeed, if the Holy Spirit is all that is necessary, then why even bother with the scriptures?
 
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YAQUBOS:
This is one of the reasons why the sin of the Church leaders is greater when they didn’t teach right teaching! For they were blinds, leading blinds!
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Give me one example of when the church didn’t teach rightly. Have there been sinful Popes, bishops and priests? Absolutely! Will God hold them accountable for their poor leadership in leading the flock? Count on it! But has any Pope, no matter hiow sinful, ever twisted or denied a doctrine of the church to excuse their sin? Never!
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YAQUBOS:
Ok. So? What do we have ( me and you ) with the problems of the Protestantism??!!! We want to know the Will of God, no? The Will of God is that the Church be LIVING in the Holy Spirit.
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I use the term Protestant as a general blanket term to describe those who are neither Catholic or Orthodox, and whose church didn’t come about until after Luther’s revolt.
I wasn’t always a Catholic. As a matter of fact, When I came to believe in Jesus about a dozen or so years ago, much of my early reading made me extremely prejudiced toward Catholicism (Orthodoxy wasn’t even on the radar screen until I met a Russian Orthodox convert a few years later). However, I believed in my heart of hearts that Jesus founded ONE CHURCH, not a slew of conflicting denominations, and I felt that this one church must still be in existence. However, which one? It seemed many of the older Protestant churches (Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopalian) seemed to water down the Gospel message and not even believe in Jesus or the Bible. Plus there were some other groups, like the JWs and SDAs, that claimed to be the ‘true’ church. The SDAs claimed that worshipping on a Sunday was the mark of the beast. They quoted Scripture to support their claim, and claimed to be led by the Holy Spirit, but my enthusiasm waned dramatically when they talked about a ‘prophet’ named William Miller (who falsely predicted the world would end in 1843). Some sects said you needed to be baptized, others didn’t. Some groups believed in the Holy Trinity, others didn’t. Some said you could lose your salvation, others said you couldn’t. Some said Jesus was God, some said he was mere man. Some said salvation was something you chose, others said you were predestined to be saved or damned. If the Holy Spirit and the Bible are all a believer needs, then why can’t these groups agree? Paul tells us in his first epistle to the Corinthians that God is not the author of confusion (14:33). Surely the Holy Spirit would not lead God’s people to embrace contradictory teachings? This division and confusion outside of the Catholic Church reminds of the last verse in the OT book of Judges: “In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what he thought best.” (21:25)
 
Peace be with you!
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RNRobert:
On the contrary. Faith is not lacking on my part. Indeed, I have more faith as a Catholic than I ever did before. About “wanting” a human authority, it’s not about what I “want” but what Jesus commanded. He gave Peter the keys to the kingdom with power to bind and loose. He told the apostles, “He who hears you, hears Me, and he who rejects you rejects Me and the One who sent Me.” From reading Scriptures, I find it obvious that he created a Church with a teaching authority.
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You see? CIRCULAR THINKING… How do you know that the Church is instituted by God? Answer: from Scripture. How do you know that Scripture is this? Answer: from the Church…
And what is the reason of this circular thinking: lack of faith in God!

By the way: I thank you for mentioning all the Apostles as having the same authority. So you didn’t prove that the Roman Church is the Church of Christ ALONE.
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RNRobert:
BTW, I do believe the Holy Spirit is a person, and that he dwells in all believers. But, if that is sufficient, why did Jesus bother with the Apostles? He could have sent the Holy Spirit all over to convert the world without the bother of missionaries. Indeed, if the Holy Spirit is all that is necessary, then why even bother with the scriptures?
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The Author of Scripture is the Spirit of God. Even Apostles, if they taught anything contrary to the Bible, are declared Anathema by the Bible.

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Peace!
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RNRobert:
I use the term Protestant as a general blanket term to describe those who are neither Catholic or Orthodox, and whose church didn’t come about until after Luther’s revolt.
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Well, first the Church is not anyones Church, but the Church of God.
Second, I belong to the Church that existed even before Luther was born!

Have faith in God, my friend.

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
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YAQUBOS:
Peace!

Well, first the Church is not anyones Church, but the Church of God.
Second, I belong to the Church that existed even before Luther was born!

Have faith in God, my friend.

In Love,
Yaqubos†
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And which church is that???
 
Hey YAQUBOS!.. start a new thread, please!

You are derailing this one.

Go to the apologetics forum… and bring up your “authority” issue.

Thanks!

God Bless.
 
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