Do you hate Mass?

[juliasmith]

I love the mass!
It’s the getting up and getting dressed and just ‘getting’ there I hate. Once I’m there, I love it!

 

[ibkc]

Furthermore, how do so many of you feel that you are spreading the goodness of your Faith by bashing the only way that most of us know to celebrate it? What message does that send? Oh, the Pope is infallible and always correct on big ticket items like abortion and birth control, but good grief they can’t for the life of them get straight on something so brainless like the proper way to celebrate Mass?

Honey, if most of the churches in the U.S. celebrated the Ordinary Form in the manner that Pope Benedict does, I would personally be delighted. It would mean that Catholics were following his example of how the mass is supposed to be celebrated, instead of “creatively” going off on their own merry way, or (as in the case of my own home parish) just being sloppy about it. In any case, your assumptions do not really apply to me in particular, since I am not a “basher” of the OF. I’d just like to see it celebrated more reverently and with an eye towards a strong Catholic identity.

 

[BSHoop96]

Explain, please–why am I sounding a little more “Protestant.”

Thank you.

Because you made these statements indicating that you do indeed not understand.

*After all, if Mass is only a “sacrifice,” I will never like it because to “like” a sacrifice is perverted. I will hate it because I hate seeing the Lord Jesus suffering and dying because of my sin.

Am I getting it now? Am I sounding less “Protestant?”

I really don’t like this at all and feel that if this is really what Catholicism is supposed to be, it’s pretty glum. But people on this forum tell me that Mass isn’t about “what I like” and I’m not supposed to be “entertained” at Mass, so perhaps I should try to “hate” Mass more and find it less pleasing.*

You sounded a bit sarcastic so I admit I answered you in the way you asked.

I think when you are talking about people telling you that you are not supposed to be entertained at Mass you may be thinking back to the thread where we were arguing about gestures, among other things, being added in the Mass. That got pretty heated.

 

[Lee_M]

50 years is a very short period in the Church. It’s an extremely new and novel thing when seen in context. It’s being “fought” for a number of reasons, but principally because of objective deficiencies in the prayers which, for whatever reason, have de-emphasized the doctrine of the Mass as a Sacrifice offered to the father for the remission of sins and also de-emphasized the doctrine of the real presence by introducing vague terms at critical times like “spiritual food” during the offertory.

The Novus Ordo replaced the TLM as the OF because they wanted to bring back participation in the Mass from the congregation and it closely resembles a Mass of our early church. I wouldn’t call it a novel thing. As far as de-empasizing the doctrine of real presence, I don’t understand where you’re coming from on that one. I guess I’m not as catechised as you are on the real presence because I do not see what is wrong with the term “spiritual food”.

 

[Dauphin]

The Novus Ordo replaced the TLM as the OF because they wanted to bring back participation in the Mass from the congregation and it closely resembles a Mass of our early church. I wouldn’t call it a novel thing.

This implies that people don’t participate in the liturgy in the Traditional Latin Mass, which is simply untrue. The Mass is a prayer, in which the people offer a sacrifice to the father for the remission of sins. When you pray the Mass with devotion and reverence, you have “actively participated”.

I find it much easier to actively participate at the Traditional Latin Mass than at the Novus Ordo. I find the air of reverence and silence much more conducive to prayer, which is the entire point of the Mass.

Participation isn’t limited to speaking and moving around. Frenetic activity doesn’t equal participation. An internal and spiritual participation is the real goal, and the TLM achieves it perfectly.

As far as de-empasizing the doctrine of real presence, I don’t understand where you’re coming from on that one. I guess I’m not as catechised as you are on the real presence because I do not see what is wrong with the term “spiritual food”.

There’s ambiguity in that term, which is why protestants who reject the real presence could theoretically use the New Mass. Instead of putting forward the doctrine of Transubstantiation in unambiguous terms, and keeping the requisite actions of the priest which emphasize that the fullness of Divinity has been presented upon the altar, the Novus Ordo decends into ambiguity which can easily lead to confusion about what the Eucharist actually is.

 

[Lee_M]

This implies that people don’t participate in the liturgy in the Traditional Latin Mass, which is simply untrue. The Mass is a prayer, in which the people offer a sacrifice to the father for the remission of sins. When you pray the Mass with devotion and reverence, you have “actively participated”.

I find it much easier to actively participate at the Traditional Latin Mass than at the Novus Ordo. I find the air of reverence and silence much more conducive to prayer, which is the entire point of the Mass.

Participation isn’t limited to speaking and moving around. Frenetic activity doesn’t equal participation. An internal and spiritual participation is the real goal, and the TLM achieves it perfectly.

There’s ambiguity in that term, which is why protestants who reject the real presence could theoretically use the New Mass. Instead of putting forward the doctrine of Transubstantiation in unambiguous terms, and keeping the requisite actions of the priest which emphasize that the fullness of Divinity has been presented upon the altar, the Novus Ordo decends into ambiguity which can easily lead to confusion about what the Eucharist actually is.

It does imply that there wasn’t participation in the Mass, because in fact that was what was happening. A huge amount of Catholics were coming to the Mass and using the time for private prayer. The bishops didn’t just up and decide one day that every thing was too hunky dory. Let’s see how big of a mess that we can cause and change everything.

I’m not confused on what the Eucharist actually is. I’ve grown up on the NO and I understand that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord, Jesus Christ. I personally like the NO better than the TLM.

I really don’t see what a Protestant has anything to do with the Mass we use. If that is your argument, maybe the Norvus Ordo will draw more protestants in to the Church and then they can be properly catechised on the Real Presence of the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[BSHoop96]

The Church actually teaches that, although the Sacrifice is infinite, and the amount of objective grace available is infinite, nevertheless, the amount of grace received by the faithful present at Mass is dependent upon the reverence of the Priest, and (I’ll need to doubt check this point), but also by the externals associated with the Mass.

Pax, please post when you check this. I have some doubts about that part but it’s too long a story to go into. Thanks.

 

[Princess18]

Explain, please–why am I sounding a little more “Protestant.”

Thank you.

Hi Cat. I’m in the deep south and the Southern Baptists love to say “those Catholics are sadistic, they enjoy watching Christ suffer and die so much that they re-enact it every week. They even keep him suffering when they wear him around their neck”. I’m not sure if that’s what the other poster meant by sounding more Protestant, but it could be.

I think when people say “the beauty of the sacrifice” they’re not talking about his physical suffering and death. I agree with you, and if I thought that’s what was intended, I’d head for the door. I refuse to watch the Mel Gibson Passion movie. I know Christ died and it wasn’t pretty. I don’t have to see it to believe it. I think it’s the fact that he was willing to give up his life for us, a selfless and beautiful act.

 

[BSHoop96]

I would much rather sit at home and read the 1962 missal than sit through the local Sunday travesty, but I do it out of loyalty to the Church. I do my best to see through the banality and happy-clappy irreverence to the Holy Sacrifice and the presence of the incarnate God.

Dauphin, I go to a very conservative NO parish. I’m curious as to what you refer to as happy-clappy. Are all NO Masses to you this way? Can you share?

 

[eelpis]

I’m sorry, I just had to vent ,someone said the NO has turned the Church into yet another American Protestant sect.

 

[Dauphin]

It does imply that there wasn’t participation in the Mass, because in fact that was what was happening. A huge amount of Catholics were coming to the Mass and using the time for private prayer. The bishops didn’t just up and decide one day that every thing was too hunky dory. Let’s see how big of a mess that we can cause and change everything.

Then the people were to blame, not the liturgy. Improved catechesis and instruction in how to actively participate in the TLM should have been undertaken, not the invention of a brand new liturgy.

I’m not confused on what the Eucharist actually is. I’ve grown up on the NO and I understand that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord, Jesus Christ. I personally like the NO better than the TLM.

But there are millions of Catholics who are confused, or who reject the real presence outright. With the TLM, there’s no confusion - the incarnate God is on the altar, His Body and Blood acting as a true sacrifice for the remission of sins.

I really don’t see what a Protestant has anything to do with the Mass we use. If that is your argument, maybe the Norvus Ordo will draw more protestants in to the Church and then they can be properly catechised on the Real Presence of the Blessed Sacrament.

The thing is, it doesn’t draw in protestants. Conversions from protestant churches happened at much greater rates before the liturgical reform.

 

[Dauphin]

Dauphin, I go to a very conservative NO parish. I’m curious as to what you refer to as happy-clappy. Are all NO Masses to you this way? Can you share?

I attend a Mass during which the priest regularly cracks jokes and tells random stories, with laughter and applause breaking out frequently. What’s remarkable is that this is seen as an extremely “conservative” parish, where the priests actually believe Catholic doctrine and moral teaching - they just don’t see any need for Catholic liturgy. The importance of reverence during the liturgy simply isn’t understood.

Even if the Mass is done reverently, there are still elements of Catholic doctrine which are obscured or absent from the prayers - doctrines which are essential to the Mass. The poor english translations currently in use also contribute to the banality and shallow spirituality. There really is no substitute for the beauty and doctrinal precision of the traditional Roman liturgy.

 

[ProVobis]

Am I getting it now? Am I sounding less “Protestant?”

Cat, you come from an other-than-Catholic Christian denomination, don’t you?

Then you should have observed that many, if not most, Catholics go to Mass because of the obligation. I see most Protestant going to actually worship God, and will love their own liturgies no matter what. Big difference.

Also, how many would attend at all if it weren’t for “a meal”? All the more reason to bear and grin through it, as long as they get their meal and leave. At least at the EF, most stay around till the end.

 

[SnorterLuster]

It does imply that there wasn’t participation in the Mass, because in fact that was what was happening. A huge amount of Catholics were coming to the Mass and using the time for private prayer. The bishops didn’t just up and decide one day that every thing was too hunky dory. Let’s see how big of a mess that we can cause and change everything.

Having been raised going to the TLM, I remember the people praying and paying attention to the Mass. I certainly didn’t see the people moving in and out of the pews and up and down the aisles during Mass. I did see a lot of that in my former parish during the N.O. Mass. Before the changes in the 60s, my parish used what I think was called the level one dialogue Mass. The laity responded to the Priest several times during the Mass.

No, what I remember before Vatican II were a group of liberal lay authors, priests (and bishops) and theologians believing that the Mass needed updating. They believed they were just the people to bring the Church up-to-date and the people would be forever grateful to them for rewriting that stale, old, Latin Mass. Kinda like the NeoCons believed that the Iraqiis would embrace democracy with open arms as soon as Hussein was overthrown.

 

[Cat]

Then the people were to blame, not the liturgy. Improved catechesis and instruction in how to actively participate in the TLM should have been undertaken, not the invention of a brand new liturgy.

But there are millions of Catholics who are confused, or who reject the real presence outright. With the TLM, there’s no confusion - the incarnate God is on the altar, His Body and Blood acting as a true sacrifice for the remission of sins.

The thing is, it doesn’t draw in protestants. Conversions from protestant churches happened at much greater rates before the liturgical reform.

Are you from a Protestant background?

My husband and I had no trouble whatsoever discerning the True Presence of Jesus Christ from the OF of the Mass that we started attending several years ago. Christ is not Truly Present because the Mass teaches that He is. He is Truly Present because He IS Truly Present–regardless of what the Mass teaches or doesn’t teach. A Christian, a person who has been baptized and has the Holy Spirit guiding them, can discern this without any special liturgy or teaching or prayers.

Think of it this way–if you are standing in front of me, and I know you, I do not need to have someone tell me, “Look, there’s Dauphin, standing right in front of you.” I can see you for myself and recognize you.

That’s what happened with me and my husband, our older daughter, and our younger daughter and son-in-law. (The latter two are not Catholic yet, but hope to become Catholic “someday” because they believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ. Pray for them.)

You say that with TLM, there’s no confusion. Frankly, I find a foreign language very confusing. If I can’t understand what they are saying, I’m going to be confused. If you aren’t, God love you, you’re a smarter person than I am.

And I think you are making a mistake to link Protestant conversions with the drop in the TLM. Protestantism has changed immensely in the recent years. At the same time that Vatican II was happening, the evangelical Protestants were building up big-time. It was the beginning of the Billy Graham era, the Campus Crusade for Christ era, and the rise of various women’s ministries, children’s ministries (e.g., Child Evangelism Fellowship, etc.) and teen ministries (Youth for Christ). Explo 72 happened and 100,000 teenagers pledged faith in Jesus and a desire to serve him. In any group of evangelical Protestants today older than 50, you can find at least one who was at Explo 72, or who was involved in some way with it (I was one year too young to go, but I attended all the classes at our church after it was over).

Another thing that happened back then is that when non-Catholics married Catholics, they converted. Nowadays, when non-Catholics marry Catholics, both of them continue to practice whatever religion (or lack of religion) they wish. The non-Catholic feels no strong inclination to convert, and the Catholic doesn’t push it like they used to.

THAT alone could account for a drop in conversions since Vatican II.

I think you need to cite a source to say that there are fewer conversions. I’ve heard statistics that say just the opposite–that many hundreds of Protestants are converting to Catholicism. In fact, entire Protestant churches are converting to Catholicism.

I will say though, that since so many Catholics seem to hate the Mass, it’s no wonder there are few conversions around them.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

"Pax:

The Church actually teaches that, although the Sacrifice is infinite, and the amount of objective grace available is infinite, nevertheless, the amount of grace received by the faithful present at Mass is dependent upon the reverence of the Priest, and (I’ll need to doubt check this point), but also by the externals associated with the Mass.

Pax, please post when you check this. I have some doubts about that part but it’s too long a story to go into. Thanks.

The part I need to double check is about the external pomp effecting the amount of grace distributed to the faithful. I am sure - without having to double-check - that the reverence of the Priest effects it.

I need to look up the quotes before starting the thread. There is also a good sermon available online that discusses this. I am going to try and locate it as well to include in the thread.

 

[rlg94086]

There are a lot of objections about the Mass in this and in the Liturgy and Sacrament section.

Last night as I was reading one of the many threads (I think it was about noise in Mass), it dawned on me that many of the people on this forum sound like they hate Mass and find very little good in it and suffer through it most of the time.

Or is that the point–Mass isn’t supposed to be something that we “like?”

After all, if Mass is only a “sacrifice,” I will never like it because to “like” a sacrifice is perverted. I will hate it because I hate seeing the Lord Jesus suffering and dying because of my sin.

Am I getting it now? Am I sounding less “Protestant?”

I really don’t like this at all and feel that if this is really what Catholicism is supposed to be, it’s pretty glum. But people on this forum tell me that Mass isn’t about “what I like” and I’m not supposed to be “entertained” at Mass, so perhaps I should try to “hate” Mass more and find it less pleasing.

Cat,

If you don’t recognize the sarcasm in this post, then I would highly recommend that you educate yourself on the definition of the word sarcasm.

I do agree that Pax et Caritas is overstating the case when he (or she) says…
Pax et Caritas:

But consider how many of these same people respond when they attend their first Traditional Mass. You hear it over and over again: “It was beautiful. It was so reverent and holy, I can’t wait for the next one, etc.”

While this may be true for many, it was not the case for me, as the TLM I attended was not more reverent than the Mass I attend at my home parish. However, I don’t think you (Cat) would care for the very traditional Novus Ordo Mass I attend (Gregorian Chant, Latin common prayers, polyphonic choir, smells, bells, etc.). Now, when our previous pastor did celebrate the TLM at our parish, I did hear from other parishioners who were very inspired by the Mass. Alas, I was traveling both times.

Regarding “hating the Mass.” I think your sarcastic charge is way off the mark, and I agree with the previous poster that your post itself sounds more like a Protestant who is condemning Catholics. This former Protestant’s love of Christ has been deepened as I understood the meaning of the sacrifice of the Mass and attended more reverent (aka less Protestant) Masses.

 

[Lee_M]

I attend a Mass during which the priest regularly cracks jokes and tells random stories, with laughter and applause breaking out frequently. What’s remarkable is that this is seen as an extremely “conservative” parish, where the priests actually believe Catholic doctrine and moral teaching - they just don’t see any need for Catholic liturgy. The importance of reverence during the liturgy simply isn’t understood.

Even if the Mass is done reverently, there are still elements of Catholic doctrine which are obscured or absent from the prayers - doctrines which are essential to the Mass. The poor english translations currently in use also contribute to the banality and shallow spirituality. There really is no substitute for the beauty and doctrinal precision of the traditional Roman liturgy.

That may be considered a conservative church in your neck of the woods, but it doesn’t sound conservative to me. As far as the English translations are concerned, a lot of that will be fixed I believe in 2010.

 

[Dauphin]

Are you from a Protestant background?

Yes. I was raised in the post-Vatican II Catholic Church in Canada, and I attended the Canadian publicly-funded Catholic school system for 12 years. I was taught something close to the Methodist faith, or the faith of the United Church. I certainly wasn’t raised a Catholic. I emerged an atheist, just like the vast majority of my classmates.

My husband and I had no trouble whatsoever discerning the True Presence of Jesus Christ from the OF of the Mass that we started attending several years ago. Christ is not Truly Present because the Mass teaches that He is. He is Truly Present because He IS Truly Present–regardless of what the Mass teaches or doesn’t teach. A Christian, a person who has been baptized and has the Holy Spirit guiding them, can discern this without any special liturgy or teaching or prayers.

I’m not convinced that all can discern it. I certainly couldn’t, despite attending that Mass my entire life. I was never taught it, and the liturgy never made it apparent to me. The first time I figured it out was when I saw a video of the Traditional Latin Mass. Perhaps I’m weaker than others, but I needed the Roman Tradition to communicate to me the immensity of the Sacrifice and the Glory of God in the Eucharist.

For many Catholics, the idea that the incarnate Son of God, along with the entire Trinity, is present on the altar, and that the Eucharist is to be worshipped with the worship of latria, is an idea that would be entirely alien to them.

A liturgy that makes this clearer would be of immense help - lex orandi, lex credendi.

Think of it this way–if you are standing in front of me, and I know you, I do not need to have someone tell me, “Look, there’s Dauphin, standing right in front of you.” I can see you for myself and recognize you.

That’s what happened with me and my husband, our older daughter, and our younger daughter and son-in-law. (The latter two are not Catholic yet, but hope to become Catholic “someday” because they believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ. Pray for them.)

All I ever saw or discerned was a piece of bread. When an EMHC waddled down the pews with the Eucharist, nobody gave It a second glance. Nobody had a clue what It was, including me.

You say that with TLM, there’s no confusion. Frankly, I find a foreign language very confusing. If I can’t understand what they are saying, I’m going to be confused. If you aren’t, God love you, you’re a smarter person than I am.

It’s not the language, which takes an effort to follow even if you’re using a translation. It’s the air of reverence and devotion which unmistakably says: something profound is happening here. The Silent Canon, the sacred language set apart, and the beauty of the prayers themselves all contribute to this.

Another thing that happened back then is that when non-Catholics married Catholics, they converted. Nowadays, when non-Catholics marry Catholics, both of them continue to practice whatever religion (or lack of religion) they wish. The non-Catholic feels no strong inclination to convert, and the Catholic doesn’t push it like they used to.

Which is scandalous if true. There’s no salvation outside the Church.

THAT alone could account for a drop in conversions since Vatican II.

I think you need to cite a source to say that there are fewer conversions. I’ve heard statistics that say just the opposite–that many hundreds of Protestants are converting to Catholicism. In fact, entire Protestant churches are converting to Catholicism.

I will say though, that since so many Catholics seem to hate the Mass, it’s no wonder there are few conversions around them.

I saw it in the index of leading Catholic indicators. I can’t find the exact statistic, but here’s an overview of the document in an interview with the author:

http://www.unavoce.org/articles/2003/interview_with_ken_jones.htm

 

[adstrinity]

I don’t think I hate the Mass as I am trying to discern that myself, but, I know that I hate the Masses. I was RCIA’d in one church. I was happy in that church. It was a Catholic Church, and before I was RCIA’d, I was happy there. When I went through RCIA, it was very general Christian, almost non-Catholic. We were given pages of things to read and I remember one class on the Sacraments, but, learning about Confession was a roll playing skit involving one of the priests and one of the former RCIA members (who was a sponsor) about how she had been told by her neighbour that her neighbour was having an affair and she promised not to tell but she didn’t know what to do. I did NOT learn there that the bread and wine was ACTUALLY flesh and blood. Keep in mind, I did miss two or three classes, but, one would think this would be on the top of the list to mention. One would think this would have been important also since me and a girl around my age were carrying a jug of wine up to the priest. Neither she nor I knew that Mass was obligatory from now on. This was not mentioned as far as either one of us could remember (I learned this from a professor I had and I asked the girl if she knew this and she said no) and we were both there for the two post-Easter classes. AND, when I say generic Christian, VERY generic Christian because when, during the Easter Vigil they were going over the first reading (Genesis 1) and the woman next to me leans over and says, “Geez, how many days ARE there?!” and a little bit later, “Oh, a week. I get it.”

So, I was now a Catholic, and I guess I was happy. I found out from a friend of mine that that church was not very Catholic in decor (circular, baptismal font is huge and communal and has a fountain flowing from it, “Reconcilliation Room”, which I have never been in) and was teased for that. The professor whom I mentioned before came to my Initiation and said that, among other things that were done wrong at that church, nobody kneeled before recieving the Eucharist (they kneeled after, though) and I later found out that this was because the parish started at the gym at a secular high school and, well, who wants to kneel there?

I am invited to other churches, churches who do the Mass more right. One is in Joliet, IL and once I was invited to attend St. John Cantius for the Tridentene Mass in Chicago, IL. I didn’t much care for St. Mary Nativity at first (Joliet) because I had an embarrassing situation there because I didn’t know I had to take the cup when I recieved the blood. The server (female) told me, “You take it.” I didn’t know that’s how it was done and I didn’t know I was worthy to take it. I also didn’t know at that point that I didn’t HAVE to take the blood. I got over that and started to attend there more frequently (it has a 1730 Sunday Mass…perfect if one is not a morning person OR has work on Sunday mornings – no excuse NOT to go). The Cathedral out in Joliet used to have a 1930 or 2000 Teen Mass or such, which was even better for my laziness, but, I just didn’t like it for some reason. I think it was too foreign to me.

Well, Joliet is a bit aways and, to be honest, I was church shopping. I hadn’t been exposed to CAF yet and so I didn’t know that this was looked down upon, but, my one professor, who I esteem very much, said that I needed to go where I was being spiritually nurished. I also wanted to see how the Mass was celebrated all around my area so that I could always find a Mass no matter where I was (and this was also a reason to go to different churches, to see the Mass times in case I missed one elsewhere). I remembered a church in Tinley Park, IL where I was taken by my very pius Great Aunt, and I liked walking to it with her when I was baby sat there (because I HATED every other part of being babysat by her), and I REALLY liked her church. I liked it most of all because if it wasn’t over with in an hour, she would take me and leave (though, maybe that’s just how I remember it; it could be she didn’t want me exposed to the Host, like the early Christians; I don’t think I was misbehaving).

I started going there more often. It wasn’t too bad. Stained glass windows, cruciform shape…still a Reconcilliation Room, though, it did have the option of a partition or a face to face meeting with the priest.

The thing is, at the Tinley Park Church, somebody comes over the speakers before Mass and has us all shake hands with the people around us. It is at this time that the announcements are read. At the Joliet Church, they let lay and religious people (mostly people collecting for something) speak during the time of the Homily. Announcements come right before the benediction there. Also, recently there, there was a polka Mass, that is, a polka band played the songs before and during the Mass. I am not saying it was odd, but, I would have prefered an Emcee with a cute butt accompanying that music assuring me that the Nazi Party is not a threat. At another Church I go to near another Church where I take foreign language lessons, the, “Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us” is repeated and repeated and repeated. I don’t know if it is repeated 7 times before we get to, “Grant us peace,” or if is repeated until the priest is done doing what he needs to do for the concecration. When I went to a Church in Oklahoma, we all did hold hands for the, “Our Father.” I am typically given the option to not do so.

I just don’t know what ISN’T legitimately Catholic. Some of these may be abuses, but, some of them may just be preferences. A very while ago (7 years, maybe? Not a very long while, but, not a while) a convert from Lutheranism to Catholicism was on EWTN saying that she liked the uniformity of the Catholic Church because she can go anywhere and it’s the same; at the Lutheran churches there was always something that was a little bit different from the previous church. Some of these churches are more reverant in some things than in others. A lot of the modern churches are generic and modern and uninspiring, inside and out. No precious materials make the building holy, super little holy objects (though the one I was catechized in did have relics of the saint after which it is named), that is, probably only the Stations of the Cross…small and placed unobstructively, no holy space/layout, that is, more circular or hex, sex, sept, oct, nov, or dec -agonal in shape. CLEARLY, too, people know more than I do at the masses, because I wasn’t taught all the prayers and so when something, even at these churches, is said in Latin (typically during Christmas or Easter) or a different prayer than the one I am used to is used, I am lost. AND, how did I learn the prayers in the first place? Was it from RCIA? No, again, it was just picking up what I could at every Mass.