Do you hate Mass?

[adstrinity]

It has gotten to the point that I am now going to the St. John Cantius Church TLM. Couldn’t hurt. I am very blessed because I don’t live too far away and my car is able to bring me there and back safely (though my mom, as I still live with my parents and am currently unemployed…prayers for a career that will support me and get me out of my parents house and on my own and sustain me with gainful employment are appreciated, is telling me I am wasting my money, there’s churches closer, and I don’t speak Latin). So far, I haven’t enjoyed the Mass. I haven’t gotten much out of it, I let my mind wander to the point where I was thinking of something very angry (as soon as I realized that I was at Mass and this was inappropriate, I stoped and came back to Church) and wondering if I committed sacrilidge by consuming the body of Christ anyway. I am also thinking that some of what the Eastern Catholics/Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox may make sense and so I have felt a disconnect from the Catholic Church. On top of that, even though this happened AFTER the Mass, the rant has snowballed so I am including this for relevance to my point, at the Church in Chicago, there was a Rosary Crusade on Wednesday. The things I was taught by prejudiced Protestants crept back into my head as I saw a statue of the BVM being carried by the priests who were part of the procession. I thought it was silly that the statue was given a Miraculous Medal and a Brown Scapular to hold. Again, THIS WAS NOT PART OF THE MASS AND I WAS UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO PARTICIPATE, but, I realise that I don’t know what to accept as true anymore and what not.

BUT, I do know that I’m not going to find the answers outside of the Church. I did pick up a book on Orthodoxy and see where that goes. I would like to learn more about it because I am not getting answers from this site and maybe that will help me discern some things. I decided last night to go to the TLM, God willing, for one year, and see what happens. I bought a mantilla yesterday, too. I realise that if there’s something I don’t like there, it’s not them; it’s me. AND, if I don’t like the TLM, they offer the Mass in the OF.

I don’t know what I think about Mass. I was so excited to be able to go to Masses before I was Catholic, I thought it was the greatest thing, so much better and more fun and exotic than the services I had gone to. Maybe it’s because some of the mystery of what was going on was explained away, but, I ALWAYS felt a strong attraction to the Catholic Church. Even when I was under five and Sunday was church day (going to my mom’s Catholic, then out to breakfast, then my dad’s Congregationalist), I LOVED my Father’s Church but hated my dad’s church, even though the later had Sunday School. Had the appeal been that it was tintilating as an outsider to see this? I don’t think so because if that was it, I wouldn’t have joined. I have wanted to be Catholic all my life and I don’t think the Catholic Church has supported me in this decision since I have become Catholic.

Thinking about this, I have done Eucharistic adoration. Just July 4th, at the Tinley Park church when I went, I stepped into the small side chapel and wasn’t paying attention. Then I saw the Host Exposed and I bowed low and started to cry. I KNOW that is JESUS, but why don’t I get that same feeling at Mass?

 

[eelpis]

No I don’t.

youtube.com/watch?v=8linZiGYSeE

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Pax, please post when you check this. I have some doubts about that part but it’s too long a story to go into. Thanks.

I just located one of the quotes. I’ll go ahead and give to you now. It is from St. Leonard of Port Maurice’s book The Hidden Treasure. After discussing the great value of a single Mass, he say the following:

The Hidden Treasure: "You will, perhaps, say to me, ‘it suffices, then, to hear one single Mass to strike off the heaviest debts due to God through many committed sins, because, Mass being of infinite value, we can therewith pay to God an infinite satisfaction’. Not so fast, by your leave; because, though indeed Mass is of infinite value, you must know, nevertheless, that Almighty God accepts it in a manner limited and finite, and in degrees conformable to the greater or less perfection in the disposition of him who celebrates or who assists at the sacrifice. Quorum tibi fedes cognita est, et nota devotio, say Holy Church, in the Canon of Mass, suggesting by this method of speech that which the greatest teachers expressly lay down (De Lug. dist. 9, 1. 103.); namely, that the greater or less satisfaction applied in our behalf by the sacrifice becomes determined by the higher or lower dispositions of the celebrant, or of the assistances, as just now mentioned. Now, then, consider the spiritual bewilderment of those who go in search of the quickest and least devoutly conducted Masses, and, what is worse, assist at them with little or no devotion; nor have any zeal in causing them to be celebrated, or in selecting with that view the more fervent and devout of the priesthood. It is true, according to St. Thomas, that all the sacrifices are, as sacraments, equal in rank; but they are not, therefore, equal in the effects resulting from them; whence the greater the actual or habitual piety of the celebrant, so much the greater will be the fruit of the application of the Mass; so that not to recognize the difference between a tepid and devout priest, in respect to the efficacy of his Mass, will be simply not to heed whether the net with which you fish be small or great” (pages 34-35).

Now, if the piety or tepedity of the Priest celebrant effects the amount of grace the faithful receive at Mass, how much more so will outright abuses and sacrileges?

After all, mere tepidity is of of much less serious nature than an abuse or sacrilege. One is an imperfection while the other is a sin - and quite possibly mortal. St. Alphonsus said that a serious violation of the rubrics is a mortal sin.

From this we can see that all Masses are not equal; and it is a mistake to believe that, just because a Mass is valid, it’s efficacy is always the same.

What is the practical application of this teaching? It is this: If you attend a Mass that is celebrated poorly, the amount of grace you receive will be diminished. And conversely, if you make the effort to find a Mass in your diocese where it is celebrated with the dignity and reverence it deserves, you will benefit spiritually by receiving more grace, since the amount of grace we received at Mass is not only dependent upon our own piety and zeal, but upon that of the Priest celebrant as well.

 

[I_Believe]

There are a lot of objections about the Mass in this and in the Liturgy and Sacrament section.

And they never end, do they ?

Last night as I was reading one of the many threads (I think it was about noise in Mass), it dawned on me that many of the people on this forum sound like they hate Mass and find very little good in it and suffer through it most of the time.

What does that tell us ? I pray many members of the clergy are lurking here and reading these posts.

Or is that the point–Mass isn’t supposed to be something that we “like?”

Bingo. Sort of. Catholicism isn’t fun. Ever seen someone kneeling at a Communion rail crying ? I have seen it twice.

After all, if Mass is only a “sacrifice,” I will never like it because to “like” a sacrifice is perverted. I will hate it because I hate seeing the Lord Jesus suffering and dying because of my sin.
Am I getting it now? Am I sounding less “Protestant?”

Remove the words “only” and “hate”, and this is the most catholic thing I’ve ever heard you say.

I really don’t like this at all and feel that if this is really what Catholicism is supposed to be, it’s pretty glum.

Catholicism is indeed glum if we are not at ease with what it demands of us.

But people on this forum tell me that Mass isn’t about “what I like” and I’m not supposed to be “entertained” at Mass, so perhaps I should try to “hate” Mass more and find it less pleasing.

We should not hate it, or hate anything for that matter. We just need to take ourselves out of the equation. God owes us nothing.

When we walk into a church, we should check all mundane concerns at the door. Nothing of this world is of value to us once we enter the church. It’s just us before Him.

All we should seek for ourselves is His mercy while begging for His forgivness for having offended Him.

And if we have assisted at the Mass for the right reasons, once we walk back out into this filthy world, we should look forward to the next Mass we will pray.

For me, the only things I have are the Mass, Eucharistic Adoration, and prayer. They are my only shot at heaven.
I hate nothing about Catholicism. Whenever I catch myself troubled about anything at all Catholicism demands of me, I need only remind myself that my sufferings are nothing compared to the sufferings of Our Saviour and the Sorrows of His mother.

 

[BSHoop96]

Cat, you come from an other-than-Catholic Christian denomination, don’t you?

Then you should have observed that many, if not most, Catholics go to Mass because of the obligation. I see most Protestant going to actually worship God, and will love their own liturgies no matter what. Big difference.

This is an insulting and way too broad statement.

Also, how many would attend at all if it weren’t for “a meal”? All the more reason to bear and grin through it, as long as they get their meal and leave. At least at the EF, most stay around till the end.

Well I see that it’s taken a while but there are usually two or three posters who eventually bring every thread around to blaming the condition on the Church to the NO. And by the way, I know you didn’t say this but another implied that more people would believe in the true presence if they attended an EF. That’s hogwash. You believe in it or you don’t. If you don’t, you’re not really Catholic are you?

 

[BSHoop96]

Dauphin:

The thing is, it doesn’t draw in protestants. Conversions from protestant churches happened at much greater rates before the liturgical reform

The world was much less secular 40 years ago. There is a drop in religion throughout the world. It isn’t just Catholicism.

 

[BSHoop96]

I attend a Mass during which the priest regularly cracks jokes and tells random stories, with laughter and applause breaking out frequently.

I forgot to ask. Is he doing this during the homily or at the announcements or something? Just curious.

 

[Lee_M]

Well I see that it’s taken a while but there are usually two or three posters who eventually bring every thread around to blaming the condition on the Church to the NO. And by the way, I know you didn’t say this but another implied that more people would believe in the true presence if they attended an EF. That’s hogwash. You believe in it or you don’t. If you don’t, you’re not really Catholic are you?

 

[Cat]

Cat,

If you don’t recognize the sarcasm in this post, then I would highly recommend that you educate yourself on the definition of the word sarcasm.

I do agree that Pax et Caritas is overstating the case when he (or she) says…

While this may be true for many, it was not the case for me, as the TLM I attended was not more reverent than the Mass I attend at my home parish. However, I don’t think you (Cat) would care for the very traditional Novus Ordo Mass I attend (Gregorian Chant, Latin common prayers, polyphonic choir, smells, bells, etc.). Now, when our previous pastor did celebrate the TLM at our parish, I did hear from other parishioners who were very inspired by the Mass. Alas, I was traveling both times.

Regarding “hating the Mass.” I think your sarcastic charge is way off the mark, and I agree with the previous poster that your post itself sounds more like a Protestant who is condemning Catholics. This former Protestant’s love of Christ has been deepened as I understood the meaning of the sacrifice of the Mass and attended more reverent (aka less Protestant) Masses.

I absolutely deny any attempt at sarcasm. “Sarcastic charge?” I assure you that my motives are pure. From what I can see with my senses, many Catholics (at least on CAF) seem to hate Mass and suffer through it. It is a legitimate question from me–do you hate Mass?

I would appreciate it if you keep your analyses of me private. You are very wrong about me.

So far, I_Believe has given me an excellent answer, the one that seems to be in keeping with what I have read in books like Imitation of Christ and The Catechism of the Catholic Church, and that seems to line up with what I was taught in RCIA and by the priests in our parishes. Thank you for the answer.

However, I_Believe, I think that you are leaving out the factor of “joy.” The Redemptorists apparently emphasize the “Joy of the Eucharist.” (That’s what I was told by a Franciscan friar–I don’t pretend to understand exactly what this means, since I haven’t done any studies of Redemptorists.) I think that what you are saying seems to be tipped too far into the “non-joy” or “hate” side. Surely there is a balance? Surely Catholicism isn’t so bleak? And even though the Mass is a sacrifice, surely there is joy and pleasure? Must it all be a misery? This isn’t what I glean from Imitation and CCC and the various priests in my parishes.

 

[BSHoop96]

I just located one of the quotes. I’ll go ahead and give to you now. It is from St. Leonard of Port Maurice’s book The Hidden Treasure. After discussing the great value of a single Mass, he say the following:

The Hidden Treasure: "You will, perhaps, say to me, ‘it suffices, then, to hear one single Mass to strike off the heaviest debts due to God through many committed sins, because, Mass being of infinite value, we can therewith pay to God an infinite satisfaction’. Not so fast, by your leave; because, though indeed Mass is of infinite value, you must know, nevertheless, that Almighty God accepts it in a manner limited and finite, and in degrees conformable to the greater or less perfection in the disposition of him who celebrates or who assists at the sacrifice. Quorum tibi fedes cognita est, et nota devotio, say Holy Church, in the Canon of Mass, suggesting by this method of speech that which the greatest teachers expressly lay down (De Lug. dist. 9, 1. 103.); namely, that the greater or less satisfaction applied in our behalf by the sacrifice becomes determined by the higher or lower dispositions of the celebrant, or of the assistances, as just now mentioned. Now, then, consider the spiritual bewilderment of those who go in search of the quickest and least devoutly conducted Masses, and, what is worse, assist at them with little or no devotion; nor have any zeal in causing them to be celebrated, or in selecting with that view the more fervent and devout of the priesthood. It is true, according to St. Thomas, that all the sacrifices are, as sacraments, equal in rank; but they are not, therefore, equal in the effects resulting from them; whence the greater the actual or habitual piety of the celebrant, so much the greater will be the fruit of the application of the Mass; so that not to recognize the difference between a tepid and devout priest, in respect to the efficacy of his Mass, will be simply not to heed whether the net with which you fish be small or great” (pages 34-35).

Now, if the piety or tepedity of the Priest celebrant effects the amount of grace the faithful receive at Mass, how much more so will outright abuses and sacrileges?

After all, mere tepidity is of of much less serious nature than an abuse or sacrilege. One is an imperfection while the other is a sin - and quite possibly mortal. St. Alphonsus said that a serious violation of the rubrics is a mortal sin.

From this we can see that all Masses are not equal; and it is a mistake to believe that, just because a Mass is valid, it’s efficacy is always the same.

What is the practical application of this teaching? It is this: If you attend a Mass that is celebrated poorly, the amount of grace you receive will be diminished. And conversely, if you make the effort to find a Mass in your diocese where it is celebrated with the dignity and reverence it deserves, you will benefit spiritually by receiving more grace, since the amount of grace we received at Mass is not only dependent upon our own piety and zeal, but upon that of the Priest celebrant as well.

Thank you Pax but I actually meant something from the CCC or the Vatican, something like that.

The reason I question is because I have read something to the effect of the inadequacies of the priest are not to fall on the innocent people, so to speak. Hasn’t something like this come up in the SSPX situation…the problem the Bishops were in did not fall on the people. I guess we are not supposed to be discussing SSPX but I just use that as an example.

 

[BSHoop96]

I absolutely deny any attempt at sarcasm. “Sarcastic charge?” I assure you that my motives are pure. From what I can see with my senses, many Catholics (at least on CAF) seem to hate Mass and suffer through it. It is a legitimate question from me–do you hate Mass?

**I would appreciate it if you keep your analyses of me private. You are very wrong about me. **

So far, I_Believe has given me an excellent answer, the one that seems to be in keeping with what I have read in books like Imitation of Christ and The Catechism of the Catholic Church, and that seems to line up with what I was taught in RCIA and by the priests in our parishes. Thank you for the answer.

**However, I_Believe, I think that you are leaving out the factor of “joy.” **The Redemptorists apparently emphasize the “Joy of the Eucharist.” (That’s what I was told by a Franciscan friar–I don’t pretend to understand exactly what this means, since I haven’t done any studies of Redemptorists.) I think that what you are saying seems to be tipped too far into the “non-joy” or “hate” side. Surely there is a balance? Surely Catholicism isn’t so bleak? And even though the Mass is a sacrifice, surely there is joy and pleasure? Must it all be a misery? This isn’t what I glean from Imitation and CCC and the various priests in my parishes.

Cat, I also thought you were being sarcastic. It did come across that way. Sorry if I also took it the wrong way.

There is joy! Perhaps your analysis of others is also wrong. Perhaps because your background is different you don’t recognize it manifesting itself in ways that aren’t as obvious outwardly as what you were used to before.

Granted there is a lot of complaining on these forums. As someone pointed out, people don’t usually come on to discuss the things going well, just the things that are frustrating them.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Thank you Pax but I actually meant something from the CCC or the Vatican, something like that.

The reason I question is because I have read something to the effect of the inadequacies of the priest are not to fall on the innocent people, so to speak. Hasn’t something like this come up in the SSPX situation…the problem the Bishops were in did not fall on the people. I guess we are not supposed to be discussing SSPX but I just use that as an example.

I started a new thread and linked to a sermon that will provide more authoritative quotes.

 

[ethelzguy]

The thing is, it doesn’t draw in protestants. Conversions from protestant churches happened at much greater rates before the liturgical reform.

But what were the rates of Catholics LEAVING, and how do those defections relate to the Church and the form of liturgy being offered?

This whole concept of reverts, converts, and defectors is like trying to nail jello to a wall. We simply don’t know what the reasons are/were for people and their choices.

 

[KingAlfred]

I could never be a Protestant. Their churches are tacky, their services way too long, and based on seemingly endless ranting by the pastor. I attended one during which I kept saying to myself, about the pastor, “Okay, Bubba. I got it. Are we done yet?” There was no sense of the sacred.

 

[BSHoop96]

I started a new thread and linked to a sermon that will provide more authoritative quotes.

Thank you.

 

[rwoehmke]

Well, the usual p***ing contest, but what can we expect. My mom used to say,“Everyone to their own tastes said the old lady as she kissed the cow.” Lots of truth there. I have experienced in plentitude the OF and the EF and can only say that if the OF is even half way reverently offered, I wouldn’t cross the street to attend the EF once again. It is quite true that I have seen very little abuse in how the OF is celebrated in parishes near me. I know that on occasion we have polka Masses in my diocese, but I have never been to one. Not interested. When someone from my parish crosses the river to attend a Latin Mass with a huge trained choir and a professional orchestra providing the music, I can understand their being impressed, but that isn’t the day in-day out Latin Mass of either form. It is a grace that we have both forms and hopefully in the future everyone can be satisfied to be able to attend the one they prefer. As far a reverence goes, it starts with you, not those folks around you.

 

[rlg94086]

I absolutely deny any attempt at sarcasm. “Sarcastic charge?” I assure you that my motives are pure. From what I can see with my senses, many Catholics (at least on CAF) seem to hate Mass and suffer through it. It is a legitimate question from me–do you hate Mass?

Okay…if it wasn’t sarcasm, then I deeply apologize. However, to me that would mean that you are just genuinely spiteful toward your fellow Catholics and/or don’t understand that joy does not require toe-tapping music and poor liturgy.

Regarding your question, I already answered it. There is nothing that brings me more joy than the sacrifice of the Mass, because of its salvific effects. A Mass that unites me more closely to Jesus on the cross through prayerful, reverent worship, also unites me more to His glorius resurrection.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

It’s kind of hard to explain but ‘joy’ can be reverent and solemn and yet so deeply felt and so wondrous, holy, and marvelous. . .and people can ‘look’ not only perfectly ‘calm’ and ‘normal’ on the outside, but maybe even stern, preoccupied, or ‘sour’ to other’s eyes. . .and yet, inside them, in their soul, permeating their thoughts and words and actions, is this wellspring of joy that is far greater than the kind of ‘joy’ which shows itself in smiles and dancing footsteps and a general ‘bubbling over’ of **enjoyment **which, while it can indeed be spiritual, can also, sometimes simultaneously, be purely ‘physical’ in origin and nature.

It’s like the difference between ‘pure’ charity such as an angel feels (as C.S. Lewis describes in one of his books) and human ideas of ‘charity’ which can range from dropping a bill into a beggar’s cup almost mindlessly, or even a sacrificial type of action like the widow’s mite. The ‘pure’ charity which is actually almost frightening and overwhelming to a human being.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

I often ask myself the same question. It seems that there is a (thankfully) small, but very loud faction that would have us believe that if the Mass is in any way comfortable or pleasant to the congregation, there must be something wrong with it.

Of course, virtually nobody here has said anything remotely like that.

Could you provide even one example of people complaining against “comfort” or “pleasantness”? Even indirectly?

Statements like this suggest that you are looking for worldly pleasantness in the Mass, which is not supposed to be what it is about.

We have threads going right now, that take any and every conceivable angle to try and discredit the NO Mass or anything to do with the post-Vatican II Church.

What kind of hatred and malcontent drives people to such avid pursuit of criticism of God’s Church on Earth? Why must Mass be something painful and miserable in order to be good and holy?

Who, here, has ever suggested that the Mass should be “painful” or “miserable” in any sense? How terribly uncharitable and dishonest to suggest. Surely, if you were honest, you would acknowledge that the people you disagree with are at least seeking their vision of proper holiness and reverence?

People who accept anything disobedient churchmen do are the ones who are hateful and disobedient to the Church.

The subtle malice in YOUR statements here is always readily apparent, by the way.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

I absolutely deny any attempt at sarcasm. “Sarcastic charge?” I assure you that my motives are pure. From what I can see with my senses, many Catholics (at least on CAF) seem to hate Mass and suffer through it. It is a legitimate question from me–do you hate Mass?

Cat, I have to admit, that if you were honestly not being sarcastic, your post does seem to reveal a fundamental misunderstanding of Catholic theology.

However, I_Believe, I think that you are leaving out the factor of “joy.” The Redemptorists apparently emphasize the “Joy of the Eucharist.” (That’s what I was told by a Franciscan friar–I don’t pretend to understand exactly what this means, since I haven’t done any studies of Redemptorists.) I think that what you are saying seems to be tipped too far into the “non-joy” or “hate” side. Surely there is a balance? Surely Catholicism isn’t so bleak? And even though the Mass is a sacrifice, surely there is joy and pleasure? Must it all be a misery? This isn’t what I glean from Imitation and CCC and the various priests in my parishes.

Mass, for me, the NO or TLM, is the most moving, beautiful, and joyous experience of my life. This is precisely because I fully realize it is the making present of the Lord’s sacrifice. Mistaking joy for worldly happiness that must involve physical, outwards signs may be part of the problem here.