Do you have ANY questions for us Catholics PART #3

[Tomdstone]

I understand that Joseph’s lineage is recorded in Matthew, and Mary’s lineage is recorded in Luke. Therefore, Jesus is legally descended through Joseph from Solomon, and genetically descended through Mary from Nathan.

thanks for that.

 

[ffg]

Is Scripture missing information required for salvation?

In regards to salvation; What is scripture missing?

I don’t want to confuse you, or be tricky, or shady.

I’m sure you’ll be happy to know I think the info is in the Good Book.

The problem is that your understanding and my understanding of the word ‘no’ will be two different understandings.

See my answer is in the light that Jesus meant what he said at certain parts of Scripture with regard to instruction. For instance, things that he requested I do…

Like the Sacraments. I can’t do those on my own. I look to His Church.

If you didn’t understand what I wrote earlier, feel free to ask about it.

Take care,

Mike

 

[susanlo]

I don’t want to confuse you, or be tricky, or shady.

I’m sure you’ll be happy to know I think the info is in the Good Book.

The problem is that your understanding and my understanding of the word ‘no’ will be two different understandings.

See my answer is in the light that Jesus meant what he said at certain parts of Scripture with regard to instruction. For instance, things that he requested I do…

Like the Sacraments. I can’t do those on my own.

If you didn’t understand what I wrote earlier, feel free to ask about it.

Take care,

Mike

Does Catholic teaching state that receiving baptism and communion is essential to salvation? I am asking specifically in a situation similar to what was posed earlier where life is very limited after the acceptance of Jesus. I am not asking if it is ok to go about life for another 50 years and choose to not participate in baptism or communion.

 

[ffg]

Does Catholic teaching state that receiving baptism and communion is essential to salvation? Specifically in a situation similar to what was posed earlier where life is very limited after the acceptance of Jesus - not is it ok to go about life for another 50 years and choose to not participate in baptism or communion.

This get’s a little complicated, hang on -

One thing is for sure - by God’s Grace, salvation shall come to pass.

What’s been laid out for us by Jesus is how to build a relationship with God, but it is important to stay grounded that God is the Grace giver.

We don’t choose salvation for ourselves, even if it seems like efforts are heavenly.

So to say ‘essential’ in an extreme case, I would say no, but again, that comes with an explanation, like with the earlier posts, it’s not black and white.

Though I think baptism is taught as essential, it get’s complicated because there is teaching on how it can occur post death (by desire???), if no chance prior.

I lost a young child before baptism, reason tells me that God loves that person, so that means that person needed to respond. (Because of the way love works, it doesn’t force a return)

If the only teaching about truth that person received was from the source of truth, then my guess is my child responded with a returned love for God.

So essential in extreme cases? God is reasonable.

Hopefully that helped. Someone I’m sure will bounce in with all the Baptism teaching in extreme cases.

Take care,

Mike

 

[Lenten_ashes]

**NO

It is US doing it to ourselves and GOD only confirming OUR life choices. Amen!**

God Bless you,

PJM

The point I’m making is, we aren’t saving ourselves or earning our salvation. This is a protestant misconception about both Purgatory and penance.

It’s God working in us here. But yes of course, our choices lead us to our ultimate destination.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Does Catholic teaching state that receiving baptism and communion is essential to salvation? I am asking specifically in a situation similar to what was posed earlier where life is very limited after the acceptance of Jesus. I am not asking if it is ok to go about life for another 50 years and choose to not participate in baptism or communion.

Yes it does.

But it also teaches of God’s infinite mercy.

Different kinds of baptism besides water.

Baptism of desire (thief on the cross)

Baptism by blood (new martyrs for the church)

Sacraments are the ordinary means.

 

[Tomdstone]

Yes it does.

But it also teaches of God’s infinite mercy.

Different kinds of baptism besides water.

Baptism of desire (thief on the cross)

Baptism by blood (new martyrs for the church)

Sacraments are the ordinary means.

St Joseph was saved.

 

[Gorgias]

Does Catholic teaching state that receiving baptism and communion is essential to salvation?

The Church teaches that baptism (and living a life of sacramental grace) is necessary for those who know that it is necessary. For those who do not know this, though, we’re not saying that there is no hope of salvation – for these, God may choose to save them through means which He has not made explicit to us. In other words, Catholics recognize the efficacy of baptism, but do not suggest that those who have never heard the name of Christ are doomed to damnation.

I am asking specifically in a situation similar to what was posed earlier where life is very limited after the acceptance of Jesus.

If a person read the Bible – without any other influence or knowledge of any Church or Christian community – and desired baptism but was never able to be baptized, we believe that (as I mentioned), God may save them. Not due to the ‘Bible’, on its own, per se: Catholics believe that the Bible is materially sufficient, but not formally sufficient.

(On the other hand, there is something known as a “baptism of desire”, but that refers to a person who is in the process of entering the Catholic Church, but who dies prior to baptism. In that case, we believe that God gives them the grace of baptism such that they are saved and attain to heaven.)

Does that help?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

St Joseph was saved.

We don’t know a lot about him.

He could have been baptized and then passed during Jesus ministry?

I have even heard arguments that the thief on the cross may have been baptized, though i don’t believe it to be very feasible. .

 

[susanlo]

The Church teaches that baptism (and living a life of sacramental grace) is necessary for those who know that it is necessary. For those who do not know this, though, we’re not saying that there is no hope of salvation – for these, God may choose to save them through means which He has not made explicit to us. In other words, Catholics recognize the efficacy of baptism, but do not suggest that those who have never heard the name of Christ are doomed to damnation.

If a person read the Bible – without any other influence or knowledge of any Church or Christian community – and desired baptism but was never able to be baptized, we believe that (as I mentioned), God may save them. Not due to the ‘Bible’, on its own, per se: Catholics believe that the Bible is materially sufficient, but not formally sufficient.

(On the other hand, there is something known as a “baptism of desire”, but that refers to a person who is in the process of entering the Catholic Church, but who dies prior to baptism. In that case, we believe that God gives them the grace of baptism such that they are saved and attain to heaven.)

Does that help?

Yes. This answer and the other answers about baptism answered my question. I think I understand that baptism isn’t an absolute precursor to salvation. If one meets an untimely end while planning to become baptized in the near future, they could (God-willing) be saved. Babies (born and unborn) that have not been baptized are believed to be received mercifully by God. However, baptism can’t be treated as unnecessary and disregarded altogether as a necessary step on the Christian journey. If I understand correctly then this sounds like a similar understanding of most Christians.

 

[jlhargus]

Let’s say …
An UN-Churched crack addict checks into a hotel and finds a Bible in the drawer and starts reading it.

and let’s say he never gets to leave that hotel room and he dies a few days later from heart damage, was there sufficient information on what is required for his own salvation in the Bible for him to get to heaven?

In other words, is there enough information and instruction in the Scripture alone for him to be saved , or did he NEED more information from outside sources in addition to the Bible?

Note: I am NOT claiming that just reading the Bible will give anyone salvation.
Note: I am not claiming to know anyone’s heart.
Note: I am not saying that Scripture cannot be summarized orally.

Note:I didn’t ask about whether it would be understood.
(An analogy: If I have in-depth bicycle assembly instructions written in Japanese: but I don’t read Japanese.
Are the instructions sufficient to assemble a bike : or are the instructions missing something?)
I not asking if you can understand Japanese, Greek , Latin , or German, or even if you can read at all.

Regarding the knowledge for salvation: what is the Catholic Church’s position on the sufficiency of Scripture?

Is Scripture missing information required for salvation?

In regards to salvation; What is scripture missing?

He wouldn’t even need to read the entire bible, he wouldn’t even had to even known their was a bible, all he would need to read would be or be told by someone:

[Acts236 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren,** what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.]

He would need to believe in Jesus, repent, baptized for remission of sins
receive the Holy Spirit. If he died that night without baptism, but desired baptism he would be saved if he believed and repented with the intention of getting baptized.

On the other hand, even without the bible, had someone said to him, even a year or more earlier. To be saved you must believe in Jesus, repent and be baptized for remission of sins and receive the Holy Spirit.

If the man was in a hotel room and suddenly believed, repented and intended to be baptized when possible he would be saved even if he had never seen a bible. Actually Christ can bring anyone anywhere to be saved even where Christ is not know or ever heard of.

 

[alwayswill]

[4]

REPLY:

VERY Clever POST & questions

[1] That is dependent upon BOTH God’s grace and the persons ability and WILLINGNESS to be enabled to accept it and then rightly apply it.

[2] The Catholic Church who ALONE can and is able to teach the FULLNESS of the Faith taught to Her through the Apostles HOLDS that there are 3 , related but independent sources to discover the FULLNESS of Jesus’ TRUE Faith

Sacred Tradition
Mark 7:9
And he said to them: Well do you make void the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition.

2 Thes 3:6
And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the tradition which they have received of us.

The Bible:

2nd Tim 3:16-17
[16] All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, [17] That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

Matthew 4:4
Who answered and said: It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God.

The Magisterium of the RCC

Mt 16:18-19
And I say to YOU: That YOU art Peter; and upon [YOU Peter] this rock I will build my church [singular], and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to YOU [exclusively] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever YOU shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever YOU shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven

Jn 17: 17-20
"Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. [19] And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. [And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;

Mt 28: 19-20
"Going therefore, teach YOU [singular] all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU****: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.**

[3] It HAS to be missing something OR:

There would be NO Catholic & therefore no Christian faith & church in existence today

The EARLY CC did not have access to the bile in its present form until the 4th Century, and existed and GREW W/O the bible for at least 60+ years.

[4] THAT NOT everything is to be expected to be in the Bible

Jn 20:33-31 "Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name.

Jn 21: 24-25 “This is that disciple who giveth testimony of these things, and hath written these things; and we know that his testimony is true. But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.”

THE REAL PROBLEM FRIEND IS NOT ONLY IS NOT EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE; BUT WHAT IS IN THE BIBLE IS SOOOOO VERY OFTEN NOT UNDERSTTOOD, NOT BELIEVED, NOT ACCEPTED.

The Primacy of Peter & the RCC

The Sacraments [7 of them]

The Forgiveness of sin GODS way

The Real Presence

The FACT that nowhere in the bible; NOT 1 time is there an example of GOD’ Yahweh or Jesus ever:

Accepting competing faith beliefs

Being OK with other faith beliefs

Tolerant of differing faith beliefs

Simply ignoring other faith beliefs

So friend how do YOU respond to that?

And, where in the bible is the factual justification for competing faith /churches:shrug:

VERY CLEVER my friend, I answered you, WILL YOU answer me?

God Bless you,
PJM

Thank you for your reply:
Note the following
I NEVER claimed the Bible contains all knowledge:
The analogy from my post about the bicycle assembly instructions does not include instructions on how to ride the bike or even how to use tools.
That doesn’t mean the instructions are missing key information required for the assembly of the bike

Answering your questions: no the Bible does not justify different beliefs regarding salvation
The bicycle assembly instructions cannot prevent someone from misunderstanding them.

regarding salvation: What key information is missing from Scripture?

 

[ffg]

This will be interesting from the phone. I don’t like typing on this thing.

Just to clarify a potential confusion, some might have noticed that PJM and I answered the opposite for the same question ( #3 in PJM’s post)

If the distinction is not clear in our two responses - here it is…

PJM pointed out that there must be a what outside of the bible, thus his ‘yes’.

I looked at the Bible as ‘is pointing outside of itself’, thus my ‘no’.

That pointing would be to the ‘what’, the Catholic Church.

Like a treasure hunt, the treasure isn’t the map, and there wouldn’t be a map without the treasure.

There must be a Church, to have a bible.

The Bible having all instruction information, makes sense in light of it’s source and target of it’s information (the ‘what’), where you can practice the instruction - The Catholic Church.

Take care,

Mike

 

[PJM]

is scripture missing information required for salvation?

In regards to salvation; what is scripture missing?

please see post #18 for a detailed reply

 

[PJM]

Does Catholic teaching state that receiving baptism and communion is essential to salvation? I am asking specifically in a situation similar to what was posed earlier where life is very limited after the acceptance of Jesus. I am not asking if it is ok to go about life for another 50 years and choose to not participate in baptism or communion.

The Catholic Church teaches in complete conformity with the Bible [which BTW is a Catholic Book]

John 3:5
[5] Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Mt 28: 19-20
[19] Going therefore, teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU: and behold I am with YOU all days, even to the consummation of the world.

God Bless you,

Holy Communion makes FAR more likely one’s path to heaven, but is not mandatory as is Sacramental Baptism:thumbsup:

Patrick

 

[PJM]

I don’t want to confuse you, or be tricky, or shady.

I’m sure you’ll be happy to know I think the info is in the Good Book.

The problem is that your understanding and my understanding of the word ‘no’ will be two different understandings.

See my answer is in the light that Jesus meant what he said at certain parts of Scripture with regard to instruction. For instance, things that he requested I do…

Like the Sacraments. I can’t do those on my own. I look to His Church.

If you didn’t understand what I wrote earlier, feel free to ask about it.

Take care,

Mike

PLEASE READ POST 318 for a detailed reply

As too our having t"two different understanding"

Both logically & Morally this is impossible TRUTH can only be singular per defined issue; yes?

Benedict XVI had this to share:

"There can’t be your truth and my truth or there would be no truth"

So then how do I KNOW that the Catholic Truth is THEE Truth Christ taught?

Please read these in the sequence presented; here’s a site to make it easy for you

http://drbo.org/

Mt 10: 1-8

Mt 16: 18-19

John 17:17-20

Mt 28: 19-20

Acts 20:28 [please use the site provided]

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[PJM]

Yes. This answer and the other answers about baptism answered my question. I think I understand that baptism isn’t an absolute precursor to salvation. If one meets an untimely end while planning to become baptized in the near future, they could (God-willing) be saved. Babies (born and unborn) that have not been baptized are believed to be received mercifully by God. However, baptism can’t be treated as unnecessary and disregarded altogether as a necessary step on the Christian journey. If I understand correctly then this sounds like a similar understanding of most Christians.

IF that is true;EITHER JESUS LIED OR THE BIBLE IS IN GRAVE ERROR; WHICH IS IT:shrug:

John 3:5
[5] Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Mt 28:19-20
“** [19] Going therefore, teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost**. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU [the Apostles & successors] and behold I am with YOU all days, even to the consummation of the world.”

God Bless you,
PJM

 

[susanlo]

IF that is true;EITHER JESUS LIED OR THE BIBLE IS IN GRAVE ERROR; WHICH IS IT:shrug:

John 3:5
[5] Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Mt 28:19-20
“** [19] Going therefore, teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost**. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU [the Apostles & successors] and behold I am with YOU all days, even to the consummation of the world.”

God Bless you,
PJM

So you would say that if someone dies awaiting an upcoming baptism or a baby dies in utero or before baptism, that they would not be saved?
I guess John 3:16, Acts 16:31, as well as the story of the criminal on the cross with Jesus can be quoted saying belief alone is necessary. I don’t think that any legitimate Christian Church uses these references to say baptism is unnecessary altogether - but that if baptism wasn’t arranged yet, they could potentially be saved if God judged their heart to be believing.
I was just wondering what the Catholic teaching was. It seems that there may be a difference of opinion amongst Catholics.

 

[PJM]

This get’s a little complicated, hang on -

One thing is for sure - by God’s Grace, salvation shall come to pass.

What’s been laid out for us by Jesus is how to build a relationship with God, but it is important to stay grounded that God is the Grace giver.

We don’t choose salvation for ourselves, even if it seems like efforts are heavenly.

So to say ‘essential’ in an extreme case, I would say no, but again, that comes with an explanation, like with the earlier posts, it’s not black and white.

Though I think baptism is taught as essential, it get’s complicated because there is teaching on how it can occur post death (by desire???), if no chance prior.

I lost a young child before baptism, reason tells me that God loves that person, so that means that person needed to respond. (Because of the way love works, it doesn’t force a return)

If the only teaching about truth that person received was from the source of truth, then my guess is my child responded with a returned love for God.

So essential in extreme cases? God is reasonable.

Hopefully that helped. Someone I’m sure will bounce in with all the Baptism teaching in extreme cases.

Take care,

Mike

HERSEY ALERT

We don’t choose salvation for ourselves, even if it seems like efforts are heavenly.

Mike are you really a Catholic:shrug:

IN ALL OF the Created Universe; ONLY man emulates our GOD: Gen 1:26-27

John 4:23-24
[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. [24**] God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth.

Q?:

So HOW does mortal man emulate our God "Who IS “Spirit?”

ONLY humanity in all of creation is gifted by GOD with

a Mind [Not meaning brain here]

A Intellect [Not meaning I.Q.]

& a Freewill

AL OF WHICH ARE PERMANENT ATTACHMENTS TO THE HUMAN SOUL & ALL OF WHICH LIKE OUR GOD ARE SPIRITUAL REALITIES

If you doubt it quantify for me your freewill:

WHAT is its size, shape, color & weight?

CAN’T be done YET only a fool would claim they don’t exist

These spiritual realities are given to MAN precisely so that WE , and WE ALONE can choose for ourselves where we will spend eternity

READ Isiah 43: verses 7 & 21

Mike, we’re dealing with SOULS here, please be careful with what you post

God BLESS you!
PJM

 

[ffg]

PLEASE READ POST 318 for a detailed reply

As too our having t"two different understanding"

Both logically & Morally this is impossible TRUTH can only be singular per defined issue; yes?

Benedict XVI had this to share:

"There can’t be your truth and my truth or there would be no truth"

So then how do I KNOW that the Catholic Truth is THEE Truth Christ taught?

Please read these in the sequence presented; here’s a site to make it easy for you

http://drbo.org/

Mt 10: 1-8

Mt 16: 18-19

John 17:17-20

Mt 28: 19-20

Acts 20:28 [please use the site provided]

God Bless you,
Patrick

Hi Patrick, regardless of if you and I regard truth as truth, explaining a distinction that will exist when two people are not on the same page, is all the effort there.

Take care,

Mike