Do you have ANY questions for us Catholics PART #3

[ffg]

HERSEY ALERT

Mike are you really a Catholic:shrug:

IN ALL OF the Created Universe; ONLY man emulates our GOD: Gen 1:26-27

John 4:23-24
[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. [24**] God is a spirit;

and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth.

Q?:

So HOW does mortal man emulate our God "Who IS “Spirit?”

ONLY humanity in all of creation is gifted by GOD with

a Mind [Not meaning brain here]

A Intellect [Not meaning I.Q.]

& a Freewill

AL OF WHICH ARE PERMANENT ATTACHMENTS TO THE HUMAN SOUL & ALL OF WHICH LIKE OUR GOD ARE SPIRITUAL REALITIES

If you doubt it quantify for me your freewill:

WHAT is its size, shape, color & weight?

CAN’T be done YET only a fool would claim they don’t exist

These spiritual realities are given to MAN precisely so that WE , and WE ALONE can choose for ourselves where we will spend eternity

READ Isiah 43: verses 7 & 21

Mike, we’re dealing with SOULS here, please be careful with what you post

God BLESS you!
PJM

Thanks Patrick,

The point is that we don’t save ourselves, we are saved by the grace of God. Obviously there are details that you and I might understand, but if someone isn’t on the same page to start, pounding them with details isn’t going to accomplish anything.

These are posts, not books. Sometimes you have to let conversation develop.

Take care,

Mike

 

[ffg]

These spiritual realities are given to MAN precisely so that WE , and WE ALONE can choose for ourselves where we will spend eternity

Mike, we’re dealing with SOULS here, please be careful with what you post

God BLESS you!
PJM

Talk about freaking out those souls, eh?

How we use our free will certainly has an everlasting effect, but I wasn’t even there yet.

Nobody asked ‘how’ to build our relationship with God, and I was not responding to that question.

Take care,

Mike

 

[Tomdstone]

The Catholic Church teaches in complete conformity with the Bible…

Many Protestants and others disagree:
Call no man Father
The Father is greater than I
Allow exceptions to divorce in case of adultery.
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple.”

 

[ffg]

IF that is true;EITHER JESUS LIED OR THE BIBLE IS IN GRAVE ERROR; WHICH IS IT:shrug:

John 3:5
[5] Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Mt 28:19-20
“** [19] Going therefore, teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost**. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU [the Apostles & successors] and behold I am with YOU all days, even to the consummation of the world.”

God Bless you,
PJM

This is not using faith and reason.

It is also without consideration of other Biblical happenings, like the good thief, or encounters where Jesus healed and told people to go and sin no more.

He didn’t say ‘get baptized and sin no more’.

Now that doesn’t mean baptism isn’t essential, but if it is, there has to be other forms in extreme cases. What’s shown above is where we source the normative form.

Anyone reading this is probably not an extreme case, but I’ve been to parts of the world where priests show up maybe once a year. Some places once every 3-5 years.

Those locals do not know that they can baptize incase of an emergency.

When we went, the priest we brought would baptize those that hadn’t been baptized.

If those good people in the middle of nowhere, world, did not get baptized, do I think their doomed? No.

In this year of mercy we should be clear about God’s bountiful love.

The normative does not apply to extreme, but it can be brought to people living extreme lives.

Take care,

Mike

 

[Lenten_ashes]

So you would say that if someone dies awaiting an upcoming baptism or a baby dies in utero or before baptism, that they would not be saved?
I guess John 3:16, Acts 16:31, as well as the story of the criminal on the cross with Jesus can be quoted saying belief alone is necessary. I don’t think that any legitimate Christian Church uses these references to say baptism is unnecessary altogether - but that if baptism wasn’t arranged yet, they could potentially be saved if God judged their heart to be believing.
I was just wondering what the Catholic teaching was. It seems that there may be a difference of opinion amongst Catholics.

Catechumens In RCIA start in August or Sept.

They don’t get baptized until Easter. Roughly 6-7 months.

If they are trying to live a pious life and die a friend of God while awaiting Baptism, it is understood that they would go to heaven.

I think the point he is trying to make is we should take scriptures like Matthew 28:20 very seriously. It’s easy to let our theology become ME-ology.

Pax

 

[Gorgias]

IF that is true;EITHER JESUS LIED OR THE BIBLE IS IN GRAVE ERROR; WHICH IS IT:shrug:

No, Patrick. It’s neither.

John 3:5
[5] Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Catholics believe that Joseph died prior to Jesus’ passion, death, and resurrection. In other words, he died prior to the institution of sacramental baptism. By your reasoning, Joseph could not “enter into the kingdom of God.” :nope:

Mt 28:19-20
“** [19] Going therefore, teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost**. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU [the Apostles & successors] and behold I am with YOU all days, even to the consummation of the world.”

This doesn’t prove your ‘point’. Yes, Jesus told us to baptize. But this doesn’t mean that the unbaptized automatically are damned (or even that “either Jesus lied or the Bible is in grave error”).

 

[Gorgias]

Many Protestants and others disagree:

That doesn’t necessarily imply that the Catholic Church’s teachings aren’t in conformity with the Bible. It could – at its simplest – mean that these disagreements are in error.

Call no man Father

And yet, Jesus calls Abraham by the name “Father Abraham.” Paul tells people, in his letters, that they are his “sons”. Perhaps, simply, those who disagree are merely misinterpreting Jesus’ words? :sad_yes:

The Father is greater than I

How is this an example that the Catholic Church’s teachings diverge from the Bible’s?

Allow exceptions to divorce in case of adultery.

This isn’t a disagreement with the teachings of the Bible, but a disagreement of how to translate a single word (‘porneia’). If the word is translated in various ways, there will (very likely) be different ways of understanding the teaching. How, then, might you say that their translation is more authoritative than the Church’s, or even better, that others’ translations aren’t what is potentially wrong?

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple.”

Not sure what you see as being an error of the Church here.

 

[Tomdstone]

The Father and the Son are equal according to Catholic teaching, but Scripture says that the Father is greater than the Son and further it says that “However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.”
Also, Catholic teaching tells us to love our father and our mother, but the bible says:“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple.”

 

[Lenten_ashes]

The Father and the Son are equal according to Catholic teaching, but Scripture says that the Father is greater than the Son

All that means is that the Father is the fountainhead of the Trinity and is the eternal cause of the Son.

and further it says that “However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.”

It’s a figure of speech and not to be taken literally. How we know this to be factual is that he reveals all the signs to accompany His return. in that same chapter (Matt 24)

Also, Catholic teaching tells us to love our father and our mother, but the bible says:“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple.”

Not to be taken literally, rather we hate the way our relationships with others can hinder our dedication to the kingdom of God.

Pax

 

[Gorgias]

Also, Catholic teaching tells us to love our father and our mother, but the bible says:“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple.”

In addition to lenten_ashes’ remarks, let me say simply that it isn’t “Catholic teaching” that tells us “to love our father and our mother”, but it’s Scriptural teaching. If your thesis is correct, then your problem is that the Bible tells us to love our parents, but to love God more. That, of course, is not contradictory.

 

[Tomdstone]

In addition to lenten_ashes’ remarks, let me say simply that it isn’t “Catholic teaching” that tells us “to love our father and our mother”, but it’s Scriptural teaching. If your thesis is correct, then your problem is that the Bible tells us to love our parents, but to love God more. That, of course, is not contradictory.

It does not say that. It uses the word hate.
It seems like when someone points to a passage in the Bible that contradicts Catholic teaching, the response is: this passage is not to be taken literally.
Call no man Father
Only the Father knows the day or hour, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself.
Matthew 5:32 allows for an exception to the prohibition against divorce.
etc.

 

[DebFar]

Hello,
If a person was already baptized prodistant, can they be baptized Catholic if they wish to join the Church?
Thank you.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hello,
If a person was already baptized prodistant, can they be baptized Catholic if they wish to join the Church?
Thank you.

Greetings

Anyone is welcome to sign up for rcia. If you have a valid baptism then you are a “candidate”. If you are unbaptized or have invalid baptism such as pentecostal, you are a catechumen. Both candidates and catechumens must complete the same course. The difference is candidates do not need baptism.

Hope I didn’t make that sound too complicated.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

It does not say that. It uses the word hate.
It seems like when someone points to a passage in the Bible that contradicts Catholic teaching, the response is: this passage is not to be taken literally.
Call no man Father
Only the Father knows the day or hour, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself.
Matthew 5:32 allows for an exception to the prohibition against divorce.
etc.

That’s why having a authoritative interpreter is essential.

PAX

 

[PJM]

This get’s a little complicated, hang on -

One thing is for sure - by God’s Grace, salvation shall come to pass.

What’s been laid out for us by Jesus is how to build a relationship with God, but it is important to stay grounded that God is the Grace giver.

We don’t choose salvation for ourselves, even if it seems like efforts are heavenly.

So to say ‘essential’ in an extreme case, I would say no, but again, that comes with an explanation, like with the earlier posts, it’s not black and white.

**Though I think baptism is taught as essential, it get’s complicated because there is teaching on how it can occur post death (by desire???), if no chance prior. **

I lost a young child before baptism, reason tells me that God loves that person, so that means that person needed to respond. (Because of the way love works, it doesn’t force a return)

If the only teaching about truth that person received was from the source of truth, then my guess is my child responded with a returned love for God.

So essential in extreme cases? God is reasonable.

Hopefully that helped. Someone I’m sure will bounce in with all the Baptism teaching in extreme cases.

Take care,

Mike

I would like to take this opportunity to expand on the highlighted in red comment.

Baptism of desire flows from a DESIRE to be Baptized while still alive; BUT unable to accomplish it for uncontrollable reasons. SEVERE persecution for example.

God Bless you,
PJM

 

[PJM]

Thank you for your reply:
Note the following
I NEVER claimed the Bible contains all knowledge:
The analogy from my post about the bicycle assembly instructions does not include instructions on how to ride the bike or even how to use tools.
That doesn’t mean the instructions are missing key information required for the assembly of the bike

Answering your questions: no the Bible does not justify different beliefs regarding salvation
The bicycle assembly instructions cannot prevent someone from misunderstanding them.

regarding salvation: What key information is missing from Scripture?

Sacred Tradition of the RCC

Some of the 7 sacraments which are implied, but not directly addressed, come to mind.

God Bless you,
PJM

 

[PJM]

This will be interesting from the phone. I don’t like typing on this thing.

Just to clarify a potential confusion, some might have noticed that PJM and I answered the opposite for the same question ( #3 in PJM’s post)

If the distinction is not clear in our two responses - here it is…

PJM pointed out that there must be a what outside of the bible, thus his ‘yes’.

I looked at the Bible as ‘is pointing outside of itself’, thus my ‘no’.

That pointing would be to the ‘what’, the Catholic Church.

Like a treasure hunt, the treasure isn’t the map, and there wouldn’t be a map without the treasure.

There must be a Church, to have a bible.

The Bible having all instruction information, makes sense in light of it’s source and target of it’s information (the ‘what’), where you can practice the instruction - The Catholic Church.

Take care,

Mike

As I made note of in a prior post; “everything” needed for salvation CAN"T be in the bible for these reasons:

The Bible was NOT fully authored until the end of the 1st Century or very early 2nd
Century; YET Jesus dies and Rose from the dead around 30-36 A.D.; and the Early CC did not have the assembled bible until the 4th Century.

The Bible is OF the Church, NOT the Church being in the historical sense; Of the bible.

John 14:26
But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,{Pentecost} he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

John 15:26
But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.

So in an absolute sense the bible was NOT essential for the birth & growth of the Early CC.

God Bless,
PJM

 

[PJM]

So you would say that if someone dies awaiting an upcoming baptism or a baby dies in utero or before baptism, that they would not be saved?
I guess John 3:16, Acts 16:31, as well as the story of the criminal on the cross with Jesus can be quoted saying belief alone is necessary. I don’t think that any legitimate Christian Church uses these references to say baptism is unnecessary altogether - but that if baptism wasn’t arranged yet, they could potentially be saved if God judged their heart to be believing.
I was just wondering what the Catholic teaching was. It seems that there may be a difference of opinion amongst Catholics.

THAT MY FRIEND IS AN AMAZING ASSUMPTION:shrug:

I claimed NO such thing.

There are three forms of Baptism; EACH acceptable by our JUST God [Mt 16:18-19]

By Water

By Desire {a DESIRE to be Baptized while alive, BUT for uncontrollable circumstances, is unable to be fulfilled

By BLOOD: Martyrdom for Christ

As for unborn infants:

The Magisterium has NOT clearly issued a Doctrinal position on this.

Present theological thinking is TENDING [NOT DEFINED] towards a belief that based on 1st Timothy: 2-4 " [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth"

Because God in order to be GOD, MUST be Fair & Just

Because God desires that every SOUL be saved

That God [who makes the LAWS & can override them] MIGHT consider the DESIRE by a parent or grandparent; or PERHAPS even the Good graces of the Church Herself to be .be sufficient to meet the “Letter of the Law.”

WHAT we can know for sure is that these infants do NOT suffer. They may or may-not attain the Beatific Vision God;s Presence? BUT we TRUST in the Divine Mercy of our God. Amen!

As for the so called “Good-thief”

Clearly a Baptism of desire would apply here.

God Bless you,
PJM

 

[PJM]

Thanks Patrick,

The point is that we don’t save ourselves, we are saved by the grace of God. Obviously there are details that you and I might understand, but if someone isn’t on the same page to start, pounding them with details isn’t going to accomplish anything.

These are posts, not books. Sometimes you have to let conversation develop.

Take care,

Mike

Hi Mike, Truth is is singular or we have no reason to even exist.

As a FYI:

I’m NOT in the conversion business; that my friend in God’s exclusive domain.

People ask, and I share God’s truth. End of story from my perspective.

God Bless,
PJM

 

[PJM]

Talk about freaking out those souls, eh?

How we use our free will certainly has an everlasting effect, but I wasn’t even there yet.

Nobody asked ‘how’ to build our relationship with God, and I was not responding to that question.

Take care,

Mike

OK, but a wide variety of folks with differing levels of faith-understanding read this FORUM. IF we are not clear, then we error IMO

God Bless you,
PJM