Do you have ANY questions for us Catholics PART #3

[PJM]

Many Protestants and others disagree:
Call no man Father
The Father is greater than I
Allow exceptions to divorce in case of adultery.
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple.”

TRUE, but they HAVE to in order to believe what they and there reformed leaders choose to invent as there own versions of truth. This can’t be THE Truth & it certainly is NOT biblically grounded:

Mt 10: 1-8
[1] And having called his twelve disciples together, he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities. [2] And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, [3] James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, [4] Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. [5] These twelve Jesus sent: commanding them, saying: Go ye not into the way of the Gentiles, and into the city of the Samaritans enter ye not.[6] But go ye rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. [7] And going, preach, saying: The kingdom of heaven is at hand. [8] Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out devils: freely have you received, freely give

Mt 16: 18-19
[18] And I say to YOU: That thou art Peter; and upon[YOU Peter} this rock I will build my church,[Singular-Faith] and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to {YOU-Peter} the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever YOU shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever YOU shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Jn 17: 17-20
[17]** Sanctify them in truth**. [GOD CAN’T DENY HIS OWN PETITION}18] As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent THEM into the world. [19] **And for THEM do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. **[20] And not for them only do I pray, but for THEM ALSO who through their word shall believe in me;

Mt. 28:19-20
[19] Going therefore, teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU: and behold I am with YOU! all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Denial of truth does not change its reality my friends

God Bless you,
PJM

 

[PJM]

Many Protestants and others disagree:
Call no man Father
The Father is greater than I
Allow exceptions to divorce in case of adultery.
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple.”

Genesis 32:9
And Jacob said: O God of** my father Abraham,** and God of my father Isaac, O Lord, who saidst to me: Return to thy land and to the place of thy birth, and I will do well for thee:shrug:

Heaven, Hell & Purgatory are both ETERNAL & REAL. We choose; God affirms our choices

CAN GOD hold differing faith beliefs ; most often even cntradictory on LONG defined issues> NO friend, God cannot.

God Bless you
PJM

 

[PJM]

This is not using faith and reason.

It is also without consideration of other Biblical happenings, like the good thief, or encounters where Jesus healed and told people to go and sin no more.

He didn’t say ‘get baptized and sin no more’.

Now that doesn’t mean baptism isn’t essential, but if it is, there has to be other forms in extreme cases. What’s shown above is where we source the normative form.

Anyone reading this is probably not an extreme case, but I’ve been to parts of the world where priests show up maybe once a year. Some places once every 3-5 years.

Those locals do not know that they can baptize incase of an emergency.

When we went, the priest we brought would baptize those that hadn’t been baptized.

If those good people in the middle of nowhere, world, did not get baptized, do I think their doomed? No.

In this year of mercy we should be clear about God’s bountiful love.

The normative does not apply to extreme, but it can be brought to people living extreme lives.

Take care,

Mike

Hi MIke,

Look for one of my post on page 4 of this string, and I explain it.

FROM our Catholic Catechism:
**1260 “**Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

**847 **This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

Amen,

God Bless you Mike,
PJM

 

[PJM]

Catechumens In RCIA start in August or Sept.

They don’t get baptized until Easter. Roughly 6-7 months.

If they are trying to live a pious life and die a friend of God while awaiting Baptism, it is understood that they would go to heaven.

I think the point he is trying to make is we should take scriptures like Matthew 28:20 very seriously. It’s easy to let our theology become ME-ology.

Pax

THANKS:thumbsup:

God Bless you,
PJM

 

[PJM]

No, Patrick. It’s neither.

Catholics believe that Joseph died prior to Jesus’ passion, death, and resurrection. In other words, he died prior to the institution of sacramental baptism. By your reasoning, Joseph could not “enter into the kingdom of God.” :nope:

NOPE!

Joseph died BEFORE Christ Resurrection & therefore was covered under the OT Covenants.

This doesn’t prove your ‘point’. Yes, Jesus told us to baptize. But this doesn’t mean that the unbaptized automatically are damned (or even that “either Jesus lied or the Bible is in grave error”).

I just responded to this on the POST above this one. Please read it.

Thanks & God Bless you,
PJM

 

[PJM]

That doesn’t necessarily imply that the Catholic Church’s teachings aren’t in conformity with the Bible. It could – at its simplest – mean that these disagreements are in error.

And yet, Jesus calls Abraham by the name “Father Abraham.” Paul tells people, in his letters, that they are his “sons”. Perhaps, simply, those who disagree are merely misinterpreting Jesus’ words? :sad_yes:

How is this an example that the Catholic Church’s teachings diverge from the Bible’s?

This isn’t a disagreement with the teachings of the Bible, but a disagreement of how to translate a single word (‘porneia’). If the word is translated in various ways, there will (very likely) be different ways of understanding the teaching. How, then, might you say that their translation is more authoritative than the Church’s, or even better, that others’ translations aren’t what is potentially wrong?

Not sure what you see as being an error of the Church here.

Nicely done, Thanks:thumbsup:

 

[PJM]

[1]The Father and the Son are equal according to Catholic teaching, but Scripture says that the Father is greater than the Son and further it says that “However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.”

[2]Also, Catholic teaching tells us to love our father and our mother, but the bible says:“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple.”

Thanks

For easy reference I have numbered your points so that I can address them

[1] What your overlooking here my friend is that Jesus has TWO perfect natures>

Jesus is True man with a perfect human nature. Like Us in everyway except sin

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin.

And always at the same time; His Divine Godly Nature

Hebrews 4:14
Having therefore a great high priest that hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God: let us hold fast our confession

Because these 2 natures were separate, they were able to operate either independently or together.

So it is POSSIBLE:shrug: that Jesus as a MAN, did not know the End times; BUT impossible that Jesus the Son of God did not know it…

[2] NOT everything in the bible is literal

Matthew 5:29
And if thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell.

Your account is metaphorical; not literal. Its a MORAL lesson on what OUR lives Priorities need to be:

GOD first

Family second

Work 3td

& everything else below this.

God Bless you,
PJM

 

[PJM]

In addition to lenten_ashes’ remarks, let me say simply that it isn’t “Catholic teaching” that tells us “to love our father and our mother”, but it’s Scriptural teaching. If your thesis is correct, then your problem is that the Bible tells us to love our parents, but to love God more. That, of course, is not contradictory.

Again well done!

 

[PJM]

Hello,
If a person was already baptized prodistant, can they be baptized Catholic if they wish to join the Church?
Thank you.

NO That is IF, IF the protestant Baptism was none with water in the name of the Blessed Trinity.

The CC recognizes all such Protestant Baptisms as being valid.

Matt 28:19-20
[19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

THANKS for asking!

God Bless you,
PJM

 

[Gorgias]

As for the so called “Good-thief”

Clearly a Baptism of desire would apply here.

Actually, no, it isn’t quite so clear.

Jesus did not institute (sacramental) baptism until after His resurrection, so for the good thief, it was simply a case of his faith having saved him, through Jesus.

 

[Gorgias]

NOPE!

Joseph died BEFORE Christ Resurrection & therefore was covered under the OT Covenants.

That wasn’t your claim; you claimed that either Christ lied or the Bible is in grave error.

So now we’ve got: today, baptism is normative; prior to Christ, it was not. (Important distinction.)

I just responded to this on the POST above this one. Please read it.

Ahh, there we go – you’ve modified your stance: yes, baptism is not necessarily the only way, but it is the normative way. Much better exposition on the Church’s teaching.

 

[Gorgias]

It does not say that. It uses the word hate.

And it also tells us to honor our mother and father.

Jesus also tells the Pharisees, directly, “For God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and ‘Whoever curses father or mother shall die.’” (Mt 15:4)

So, what are you claiming? Are you saying that Jesus meant “literally bear hatred for them in your heart, but don’t curse them; despise them, but honor them”? Seriously… that’s what you’re going with?

If not, then it’s necessary to find an analysis that makes these statements consistent with one another. Let’s find your quote in Scripture:

(Luke 14:26-27) “If any one comes to me without hating his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.

But wait – there’s more! This saying is reported, too, in Matthew!

(Mt 10:37-38) “Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever does not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me.

Hmm… in Matthew, the saying makes it clear that it’s about “loving [parents] more than” loving Jesus. Gee… do you think that’s what it means in Luke, too? Nah… it makes more sense to rail that Jesus is being contradictory…

It seems like when someone points to a passage in the Bible that contradicts Catholic teaching, the response is: this passage is not to be taken literally.

You prefer the conclusion that the Bible itself isn’t internally consistent? Good luck with that one…

Call no man Father
Only the Father knows the day or hour, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself.
Matthew 5:32 allows for an exception to the prohibition against divorce.
etc.

You keep going back to these. We’ve explained them thoroughly. Is that the best you’ve got, in order to show a lack of internal consistency in the Bible? C’mon, now…

 

[ffg]

Hi Mike, Truth is is singular or we have no reason to even exist.

As a FYI:

I’m NOT in the conversion business; that my friend in God’s exclusive domain.

People ask, and I share God’s truth. End of story from my perspective.

God Bless,
PJM

Well, let’s just be careful not to contradict what is on the screen when we self label ‘practicing catholic’ and start posts with insults. That doesn’t inform, it turns away.

Then continue posts by building strawmen using one liners out of context.

I don’t like to cut up posts for this reason. Comprehending a post is taking into consideration the whole.

Take care,

Mike

(oh, and I do agree, conversion is God’s work, conversation is for us)

 

[ffg]

Hi MIke,

Look for one of my post on page 4 of this string, and I explain it.

FROM our Catholic Catechism:
**1260 “**Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

**847 **This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

Amen,

God Bless you Mike,
PJM

Thanks Patrick,

The red is the key.

The context of the teaching is like a Board debating a topic and what is necessary for the business.

When the Chairman says ‘enough debate, this is the rule’.

Obviously, that is in the context of the business and those that desire to be involved.

So - what does this mean for those that are not Baptized because they think having a personal relationship with Jesus in their heart is enough?

Well it means they should read Matt 25 from top to bottom ( which shows there is a ‘how’ to do things, and that it matters to God) and take the stern teaching of Jesus previously listed in your earlier post seriously. While they are still breathing and know the teaching is there.

The souls I worry about Patrick, are the ones that think they have it made.

Thus the reason I want to ground the teaching that God is God, and we are not, first.

Take care,

Mike

 

[Gorgias]

DebFar:

If a person was already baptized prodistant, can they be baptized Catholic if they wish to join the Church?
Thank you.

Anyone is welcome to sign up for rcia. If you have a valid baptism then you are a “candidate”. If you are unbaptized or have invalid baptism such as pentecostal, you are a catechumen. Both candidates and catechumens must complete the same course. The difference is candidates do not need baptism.

Deb,

Ashes’ response is spot-on, with respect to how people enter the Church: some come in without baptism and therefore are baptized, while others have already had a valid baptism in some other Christian community, and are welcomed into the Church.

The one point that might need clarifying is that it’s not true that both of these “must complete the same course.” In many parishes, both types of folks are part of a single program, but sometimes (depending on your pastor and the types of programs he has started in the parish), folks who are already baptized don’t need that full program of catechesis, and so, there might be a different (and often shorter!) program that’s offered to them. It varies by parish. So, if you’re interested, call your local parish and ask to set up a meeting with the pastor, and talk with him about how you might become Catholic and join the parish!

Blessings,
G.

 

[ffg]

OK, but a wide variety of folks with differing levels of faith-understanding read this FORUM. IF we are not clear, then we error IMO

God Bless you,
PJM

Totally agree here.

What started this line of back and forth was a post NOT to you, which now that I look back on it, I think you might have thought was directed to you.

Oh and I do agree truth is 1, I defend using this a lot.

This Baptism discussion here has me thinking about another thread to start on Baptism’s other HUGE purpose that is constantly overlooked because of the focus on OS.

But we’ll see if it pops up in here first.

Take care,

mike

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Deb,

Ashes’ response is spot-on, with respect to how people enter the Church: some come in without baptism and therefore are baptized, while others have already had a valid baptism in some other Christian community, and are welcomed into the Church.

The one point that might need clarifying is that it’s not true that both of these “must complete the same course.” In many parishes, both types of folks are part of a single program, but sometimes (depending on your pastor and the types of programs he has started in the parish), folks who are already baptized don’t need that full program of catechesis, and so, there might be a different (and often shorter!) program that’s offered to them. It varies by parish. So, if you’re interested, call your local parish and ask to set up a meeting with the pastor, and talk with him about how you might become Catholic and join the parish!

Blessings,
G.

Just out of personal curiosity, can you provide a link to at least one parish, anywhere in the USA that has different courses like you have said? I live in a major city and explored this before I went through and was told the other courses like RCIC had been eliminated and everything was meshed into one course.

Thanks.

 

[PJM]

Actually, no, it isn’t quite so clear.

Jesus did not institute (sacramental) baptism until after His resurrection, so for the good thief, it was simply a case of his faith having saved him, through Jesus.

Perhaps:shrug:

BUT time does not exist for God; everything is present tense.

What GOD taught in John 3:5 & Mt 28: 19-20 is “timeless”

Jesus WAS speaking in “future -tense”, as this mandate was until time immortal

Certainly it WAS his Faith, that prompted what ever action Christ choose to take; and with the same assurance, God can override what HE God has instituted for mortal men as an absolute mandate. [5] Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

God Bless you,

 

[PJM]

Actually, no, it isn’t quite so clear.

Jesus did not institute (sacramental) baptism until after His resurrection, so for the good thief, it was simply a case of his faith having saved him, through Jesus.

Hmmm,

Obviously Christ TAUGHT this as a mandate while still on earth. The Bible is replete with lessons to be Baptized while Christ was still alive. So IF as you suggest Baptism did not take effect until AFTER the Resurrection? How do you exp,ain these:

Mark 1:4
John was in the desert baptizing, and preaching the baptism of penance, unto remission of sins.

Acts Of Apostles 1:22
Beginning from the baptism of John, until the day wherein he was taken up from us, one of these must be made a witness with us of his resurrection.

Romans 6:4
For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life.

Matthew 3:16
And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him

Luke 3:21
Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that Jesus also being baptized and praying, heaven was opened;

John 3:22After these things Jesus and his disciples came into the land of Judea: and there he abode with them, and baptized.

God Bless you,

PJM

 

[PJM]

That wasn’t your claim; you claimed that either Christ lied or the Bible is in grave error.

So now we’ve got: today, baptism is normative; prior to Christ, it was not. (Important distinction.)

Ahh, there we go – you’ve modified your stance: yes, baptism is not necessarily the only way, but it is the normative way. Much better exposition on the Church’s teaching.

Frisnd I have motived NOTHING except your understanding

John 3:5
[5] Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

My friend could Jesus [GOD] have been more c;ear or precise in this amndate:shrug:

Mt. 28: 19-20
[19] Going therefore, teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20**] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU: and behold I am with YOU all days, even to the consummation of the world."

Amen!

God Bless you,
PJM