Do you have experience with courtship?

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On reflection, a lot of young couples (and older couples) already have trouble with in-laws being in their business.

How, under Brother Andre Marie’s scheme, is the young couple supposed to figure out how to keep parents and siblings from encroaching on their marriage? At some point (and it probably needs to start at least during engagement), a couple needs to learn to create a bubble of privacy where they can make decisions together without his mom or her dad or her sister or his brother elbowing their way in.
 
It would certainly be a killer for those of us who have non-Catholic parents. I have a feeling no orthodox Catholic man would be really acceptable to my family.
 
It would certainly be a killer for those of us who have non-Catholic parents. I have a feeling no orthodox Catholic man would be really acceptable to my family.
Right.

I suspect even in cases with two super nice super orthodox families (which I’m not sure I’ve ever seen on CAF), it might be that dad has to work nights, the suitor is in medical or law school and only has an hour here or there, the young lady is shy (and petrified by the idea of going to visit her suitor’s mom and dad and 8 siblings), mom’s trying to go back to school, and the siblings have a play or a birthday or are sick or whatever.

I feel like Brother Andre Marie overestimates the ease of getting half a dozen or a dozen people together regularly. As far as he is concerned, nobody in this group of at least a dozen people has anything better to do than to chaperone the young people. That is true on reality TV, but it isn’t true off-screen.
 
On reflection, a lot of young couples (and older couples) already have trouble with in-laws being in their business.

How, under Brother Andre Marie’s scheme, is the young couple supposed to figure out how to keep parents and siblings from encroaching on their marriage? At some point (and it probably needs to start at least during engagement), a couple needs to learn to create a bubble of privacy where they can make decisions together without his mom or her dad or her sister or his brother elbowing their way in.
Of course, many who follow strict courting rules also subscribe to the Christian Patriarchy model, in which women certainly are never independent of a man, but also where not even the adult sons are ever completely independent of the Patriarch, who continues to wield authority over all of his (ideally many) children long after they reach adulthood.

Also, the “everyone has to integrate into one big happy family” ideal, that suitors must get along with not only the actual prospective spouse but also their parents, and also all their siblings, also assumes that all courtship activities take place within a particular group of Christians who already know each other and share the same beliefs. While the Internet and cell phones has made this somewhat easier, that is still a pretty small pool of acceptable spouses, some of it really seems quasi-incestuous at times.

(And in some cases, such as the Order, a polygamist offshoot from the LDS featured on A+E’s “Escaping Polygamy”, actual incest involving not only cousin, but uncle-niece and half-sibling marriages is essentially what the leaders rely on to keep their flock expanding. :eek: )
 
Of course, many who follow strict courting rules also subscribe to the Christian Patriarchy model, in which women certainly are never independent of a man, but also where not even the adult sons are ever completely independent of the Patriarch, who continues to wield authority over all of his (ideally many) children long after they reach adulthood.

Also, the “everyone has to integrate into one big happy family” ideal, that suitors must get along with not only the actual prospective spouse but also their parents, and also all their siblings, also assumes that all courtship activities take place within a particular group of Christians who already know each other and share the same beliefs. While the Internet and cell phones has made this somewhat easier, that is still a pretty small pool of acceptable spouses, some of it really seems quasi-incestuous at times.
The “one big happy family” ideal is pretty tough to achieve in practice. Most of us cope by just metering down the amount of time we spend with relatives and carefully calibrating how close we live to extended family rather than by being best buds with our in-laws.

I’m pretty sure that the problem relative in our family would never have given the green light to a prospective spouse, no matter how saintly or how many painful family dinners and “family fun nights” we sat through. :eek:

Also, what if the prospective spouse suits mom and dad, but not the son or daughter?

Just having a husband and wife who are a good match is HUGE and anything on top of that is gravy. As we often say on CAF, as long as you and your spouse see eye to eye, it doesn’t matter what your relatives say or do.

Edited to add: The “big family ideal” as you explain it kind of sounds like a cult. And that’s what some of these families are–really small cults.
 
The “one big happy family” ideal is pretty tough to achieve in practice. Most of us cope by just metering down the amount of time we spend with relatives and carefully calibrating how close we live to extended family rather than by being best buds with our in-laws.
Interestingly, my own mother was friends with her future mother in law long before she saw my father as a prospective spouse. However, the same could not be said for the relationship between my father and his in-laws, or specifically, one of his sisters-in-law. My mother’s mother was sickly for a while, and her oldest sister apparently had a quasi-motherly role in the family. She did NOT like my father at all and even quit speaking to my mother for a while because of that.

So yeah, if “one big happy family” had been a requirement then my parents would never have married.
Edited to add: The “big family ideal” as you explain it kind of sounds like a cult. And that’s what some of these families are–really small cults.
Well certainly the freejinger types will claim that the ATI followers are essentially a cult.

However, I don’t want to get too bogged down in discussing them because it is certainly NOT just followers of ATI who find courtship appealing.

Some of it is understandable, as a reaction to the excesses of “modern dating” and the idea that there is nothing really special about marriage.

Many people really do see the wedding as more important than the marriage, for they see marriage not as the start of a completely new chapter in life for a couple, but just an affirmation of a committed relationship that already exists. And certainly, early physical involvement, even if it doesn’t actually involve sexual intercourse, can cloud people’s minds about whether a particular suitor is actually appropriate to marry.

However, many of the courtship advocates really do seem to idealize past courtship practices in an unhealthy way. I’ve also seen many on CAF look at arranged marriage longingly as well.

Also, regarding the Jane Austen references, many of the characters essentially DID have nothing else to do but chaperone young lovers because not even the men of the social class she depicts, had to actually work for a living, at least not the way most people do today. (Of course a member of the high gentry such as Mr. Darcy would still have had to run his estate, manage investments, etc. but he didn’t have to worry about getting fired if he took ill and missed too much work.)

Interestingly, the way some courtship advocates frown on “prior attachments” reminds me of Marianne Dashwood’s attitudes about “second attachments” at the start of Sense and Sensibility. And certainly, Harriet Smith in Emma “falls in love” with quite a number of gentlemen, although she never actually “dates” any of them.
 
Also, regarding the Jane Austen references, many of the characters essentially DID have nothing else to do but chaperone young lovers because not even the men of the social class she depicts, had to actually work for a living, at least not the way most people do today.

Interestingly, the way some courtship advocates frown on “prior attachments” reminds me of Marianne Dashwood’s attitudes about “second attachments” at the start of Sense and Sensibility. And certainly, Harriet Smith in Emma “falls in love” with quite a number of gentlemen, although she never actually “dates” any of them.
Yes–chaperoning and putting grown daughters “out there” and organizing social events does seem to be a big part of of the older generation’s life in Jane Austen’s novels (parents and aunties and uncles and older friends of the family). (Mrs. Bennet’s productive output does seem to have been 50% matchmaking efforts/50% dinner planning, but the nice dinners were also matchmaking!) But, as you note, this was a very privileged level of society–I expect that as you went down the social ladder, there’d be less and less leisure available for chaperoning.

About “second attachments”–it’s not uncommon for widows and widowers to have two different happy marriages.
 
As I recall, there’ve been historic correlations of marriage records and baptismal records. The baptism of the first child was often quite sooner than nine months after the wedding. Premarital sex is not a new problem, and the lower classes certainly didn’t practice this sort of chaperoned courtship.
 
As far as I can tell, nobody on the thread claims to have courted.

My future husband and I dated pretty seriously from the start, had a quick engagement (freaking out one side of the family), and married very soon after we finished our required engagement prep.

But, we were economically self-sufficient young adults in grad school living far from family, there wasn’t any chaperoning, we had plenty of dates, and lots of that awful “alone time”.

It turns out that mature people with self-control can handle quite a lot of that. And in my opinion, immature people with no self-control really don’t have any business getting married…
 
As far as I can tell, nobody on the thread claims to have courted.

My future husband and I dated pretty seriously from the start, had a quick engagement (freaking out one side of the family), and married very soon after we finished our required engagement prep.

But, we were economically self-sufficient young adults in grad school living far from family, there wasn’t any chaperoning, we had plenty of dates, and lots of that awful “alone time”.

It turns out that mature people with self-control can handle quite a lot of that. And in my opinion, immature people with no self-control really don’t have any business getting married…
I’ve noticed that too, I was hoping to hear from someone who had experienced courting, or could relate to the book I’m reading.

I did want to mention for anyone who’s dating or looking to date, I’ve read a book recently, Christian Dating in a Godless World, and I thought it was a really good read, I recommend it.

I don’t think I’d fit in your category of “immature people with no self-control” (or at least I hope not), but…I do think there’s value in spending more time in group settings for the accountability factor, especially at the beginning of a relationship. I don’t think alone time is “awful”…but for me at least…it seems smarter to keep it limited and to certain situations…

The “dating”/“courting” label isn’t all that important to me…what it comes down to is getting to know if a girl is the one I want to marry in a smart and holy way.
 
I’ve noticed that too, I was hoping to hear from someone who had experienced courting, or could relate to the book I’m reading.

I did want to mention for anyone who’s dating or looking to date, I’ve read a book recently, Christian Dating in a Godless World, and I thought it was a really good read, I recommend it.

I don’t think I’d fit in your category of “immature people with no self-control” (or at least I hope not), but…I do think there’s value in spending more time in group settings for the accountability factor, especially at the beginning of a relationship. I don’t think alone time is “awful”…but for me at least…it seems smarter to keep it limited and to certain situations…

The “dating”/“courting” label isn’t all that important to me…what it comes down to is getting to know if a girl is the one I want to marry in a smart and holy way.
Good.

I’m not familiar with that book but I’ve liked what I’ve read of “How Far Can We Go?: A Catholic Guide to Sex and Dating.” It addresses the issues of age differences pretty well–a lot of chastity materials assume the reader is a teen and has a teen lifestyle.
 
Good.

I’m not familiar with that book but I’ve liked what I’ve read of “How Far Can We Go?: A Catholic Guide to Sex and Dating.” It addresses the issues of age differences pretty well–a lot of chastity materials assume the reader is a teen and has a teen lifestyle.
Ah okay cool. I’m well past my teen years, but may still check into it, sounds like it could be helpful.
 
Ah okay cool. I’m well past my teen years, but may still check into it, sounds like it could be helpful.
Sorry! The book I was recommending talks about how different ages and life stages require a different approach. So that the don’t-do-this-don’t-do-that appropriate to high schoolers don’t apply in the same way to engaged working professionals.
 
Sorry! The book I was recommending talks about how different ages and life stages require a different approach. So that the don’t-do-this-don’t-do-that appropriate to high schoolers don’t apply in the same way to engaged working professionals.
Haha, okay, gotchya, no worries
 
There’s no magic involved in just sticking the word “COURTSHIP” over our romantic relationships.
I shake my head over people who believe they can schedule “falling in love” and assume that if it hasn’t happened during courtship, it will definitely happen during engagement or marriage.
Absolutely. People are always looking for a perfect, never fail way of doing things. It’s part of modern life. People don’t “have time” to forge relationships. Witness the proliferation of dating sites.
No substitution for really getting to know a person.
No shortcuts.
No guarantees either.
 
There are no shortcuts. Even for adults.

First, there is friendship which grows or doesn’t.

Next is expressing the fact that you have feelings for each other, which are based on being friends first. There’s no step two if I find out the person I’m attracted to and want to be friends with has a different worldview or personal attitudes that don’t appeal to me.

Spend time together not just going out but doing other things together. You’ll soon learn whether or not you enjoy being together. Being able to earn each other’s trust is also important. Intelligence, maturity, a good sense of humor. A warm person. A person who feels some empathy.

It should happen around the same time, but both of you realize that there is a next step coming. Either of you could simply say, “Have you thought about getting married?”

If you both think you can have a future together, then real courtship begins. You are both friends and potential partners in life. It would be best if you met each other’s families. They could be your in-laws one day.

After it’s clear that both of you like, trust and enjoy spending time together, someone says, “Will you marry me?” in a ‘no need to answer right away’ tone. If she says yes, the engagement period begins. You don’t want any surprises after the ceremony so get the practical matters out in the open. No, no one is perfect, but I do know one thing. Marriages last because you believe the same important things - you enjoy being together no matter what you’re doing. That will carry you on.

Best,
Ed
 
So I’m reading the book Arms of Love right now. It’s a novel about a young adult man and woman who “court” each other rather than “date”.
It has been almost two months since this thread was active, but perhaps the following interview with the author (from ten years ago!) will be of interest …
August 17, 2006
Romance with a Message
Stephanie Wood
When I was first introduced to the book Arms of Love by Carmen Marcoux, I’m embarrassed to admit that my initial reaction was, “A Catholic novel about modern day courtship? What a cheesy idea! Who would read this?”
Carmen’s novel sat on my bookshelf for over a year before I picked it up on a rainy Saturday afternoon. Several hours and a few hundred pages later, I put down a book that had revolutionized my perspective on dating and relationships. Rarely have I been so wrong in judging a book by its cover and title. And rarely have I been so inspired by a novel.
Read more here:
catholicexchange.com/romance-with-a-message
 
I doubt concepts like courting are that useful in the present given that they were developed on behalf of wealthy and powerful families who all had arranged marriages for political purposes.
 
I don’t understand how a mortal sin could occur between the boy and the girl if they’re not yet boyfriend/girlfriend? I think a sin could occur only if both parties are attracted or already have feelings for each other? :confused:
 
I feel like at this point courtship has become so ill-defined as to be meaningless.

Do you mean by courtship, simply viewing the relationship with an eye to marriage, and attempting to limit time alone (like in a car or a house alone) so as to reduce temptation?

Or do you mean a more structured relationship with chaperones and parental approval or possibly even parents picking romantic partners?

Or something in between?
 
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