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blanchardman
Guest
As you requested I will not comment further on the subject of hell . Someone mentioned the triune nature of man. I think it was you. It is mentioned in. 1 Thes 5:23 as “spirit and soul and body”
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rcwitness
Guest
Thank you, and maybe I’m not being fair to suggest we don’t carry on. I don’t mind if you do wish to. I was just suggesting because we seem set in our stance.
Please don’t think I was angry, or thought you weren’t being uncharitable in your fellowship! Feel free to share, but if I don’t continue, it’s cuz I don’t find it profitable to do so.
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rcwitness
Guest
And YES! Good Scripture about the triune nature! I assume you see that as the image of God, Who’s image we were created in?
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blanchardman
Guest
Yes we are in agreement on this.
I wanted to start a new topic by work got hetic so I will wait until tomorrow.
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PJM
Guest
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blanchardman
Guest
John 19:31…“for that sabbath was an high day”
What is your understanding of this.
I would like to hear from Catholic and non-catholics on this.
What is your understanding of this.
I would like to hear from Catholic and non-catholics on this.
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PJM
Guest
My friend what you propose is a heresy
We are Blessed to HAVE a Magisterium to teach us both what is spelled out, and what is implied. As CATHOLICS we have a grave moral responsibility to [1] KNOW what is taught [2] Then accept in humility with assent of our minds and our wills, what it teaches…
[3] The practice of “religious beliefs” is wisely termed "FAITH’ Because it takes faith, hope and love to subject our wills, to the Divine Willl expressed by the Church. Amen
CODE of Canon Law
THE TEACHING FUNCTION OF THE CHURCH LIBER III. DE ECCLESIAE MUNERE DOCENDI
Can. 747 §1. The Church, to which Christ the Lord has entrusted the deposit of faith so that with the assistance of the Holy Spirit it might protect the revealed truthreverently, examine it more closely, and proclaim and expound it faithfully, has the duty and innate right, independent of any human power whatsoever, to preach thegospel to all peoples, also using the means of social communication proper to it.
§2. It belongs to the Church always and everywhere to announce moral principles, even about the social order, and to render judgment concerning any human affairs insofar as the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls requires it.
Can. 748 §1. All persons are bound to seek the truth in those things which regard God and his Church and by virtue of divine law are bound by the obligation and possessthe right of embracing and observing the truth which they have come to know.
§2. No one is ever permitted to coerce persons to embrace the Catholic faith against their conscience.
Can. 749 §1. By virtue of his office, the Supreme Pontiff possesses infallibility in teaching when as the supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian faithful, who strengthens his brothers and sisters in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held.
§2. The college of bishops also possesses infallibility in teaching when the bishops gathered together in in ecumenical council exercise the magisterium as teachers andjudges of faith and morals who declare for the universal Church that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held definitively; or when dispersed throughout the world but preserving the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter and teaching authentically together with the Roman Pontiff matters of faith or morals, they agree that a particular proposition is to be held definitively.
God Bless you,
Patrick
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PJM
Guest
A rather surprising question from a non-Catholic. THANKS!
The short answer to your question is YES
Pope Francis, despite being the “Pope of the ‘mis-speak’ “, is nevertheless our Supreme Pontiff who deserves the respect of that esteemed office.
Until or unless, history is made, and God-forbid, His Holiness would officially declare an Established Doctrine, Dogma, or Sacred Tradition issue to have been in error, there exist no grounds NOT to render unto our Pope all the respect due to him and the Office of the Papacy.
His “off-the cuff” remarks, are his alone, and do not bear the weight of authority of the Papal Office.
God Bless you,
Patrick
The Code of Canon Law
Can. 749 §1. By virtue of his office, the Supreme Pontiff possesses infallibility in teaching when as the supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian faithful, who strengthens his brothers and sisters in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held.
§3. No doctrine is understood as defined infallibly unless this is manifestly evident
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PJM
Guest
I [ME-personally] do not believe the Church has made a definitive statement on HELL actually being FIRE: Theologians hold differing views on this. WHAT the Church does teach teach is that:
[1] Hell is ETERNAL Suffering
[2] that it’s greatest suffering stems from KNOWING that they will never be united with the GOD they either did not believe to exist or perhaps choose to obey.
[3] It certainly is NOT thee place for US [our choices] to spend Eternity in
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PJM
Guest
Nicely done! Thanks
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PJM
Guest
THANK YOU< this is NOW a teaching moment
Hi-lighted in red aboveGen 1:26-27 sates: "And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them
The Bible also teaches that as a consequences of Original Sin:
Genesis 3:19
**In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return.
**
So we are Created like GOD
But our Bodies return to DUST when we die.
Q?
How then can their be “life-ever-lasting?”
In the entire UNIVERSE of BILLIONS of planets, stars and galaxies; only ONE, only EARTH can be proven to be able to support life forms.
On Planet EARTH, with its hundreds of millions of Living THINGS, only One; only man can choose to love or to hate and to rationalize.
**In order for man to do this certain attributes are essential:
A MIND {not the brain}
A Intellect {NOT “I.Q”}
& a Freewill**
Like our GOD, these things are too Eternal, unable to be killed & can’t die. This package GRANTED to ALL of humanity {not only believers} is what will spend Eternity either in Hell or in Heaven [often after Purgatory]
The Particular Judgment takes place at the INSTANT of mortal-death. Our Life-choices are instantly confirmed by our GOD, & it is we who choose the place of our eternity.
God B;ess you,
PJM
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PJM
Guest
By “spirit” you mean “Souls”
MInds+Intellects+Freewill+ Soul = our Eternal “other-self”
A fuller explanation is in the post above this one
God Bless you:thumbsup:
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rcwitness
Guest
Wow! That’s a whole lot of hot air…My friend what you propose is a heresy
We are Blessed to HAVE a Magisterium to teach us both what is spelled out, and what is implied. As CATHOLICS we have a grave moral responsibility to [1] KNOW what is taught [2] Then accept in humility with assent of our minds and our wills, what it teaches…
[3] The practice of “religious beliefs” is wisely termed "FAITH’ Because it takes faith, hope and love to subject our wills, to the Divine Willl expressed by the Church. Amen
CODE of Canon Law
THE TEACHING FUNCTION OF THE CHURCH LIBER III. DE ECCLESIAE MUNERE DOCENDI
Can. 747 §1. The Church, to which Christ the Lord has entrusted the deposit of faith so that with the assistance of the Holy Spirit it might protect the revealed truthreverently, examine it more closely, and proclaim and expound it faithfully, has the duty and innate right, independent of any human power whatsoever, to preach thegospel to all peoples, also using the means of social communication proper to it.
§2. It belongs to the Church always and everywhere to announce moral principles, even about the social order, and to render judgment concerning any human affairs insofar as the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls requires it.
Can. 748 §1. All persons are bound to seek the truth in those things which regard God and his Church and by virtue of divine law are bound by the obligation and possessthe right of embracing and observing the truth which they have come to know.
§2. No one is ever permitted to coerce persons to embrace the Catholic faith against their conscience.
Can. 749 §1. By virtue of his office, the Supreme Pontiff possesses infallibility in teaching when as the supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian faithful, who strengthens his brothers and sisters in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held.
§2. The college of bishops also possesses infallibility in teaching when the bishops gathered together in in ecumenical council exercise the magisterium as teachers andjudges of faith and morals who declare for the universal Church that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held definitively; or when dispersed throughout the world but preserving the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter and teaching authentically together with the Roman Pontiff matters of faith or morals, they agree that a particular proposition is to be held definitively.
God Bless you,
Patrick
I did not dissent anything. I have said, I tend to lean towards what you and Abu think about whether Purgatory takes place in the Particular or General judgment, accept I don’t think it has specifically been addressed with the Magisterium.
The only section of the Catechism that touches on the topic was not intended to specifically distinguish what we are talking about. Though, it appears, if anything, to favor a Purgatory taking place in the first and Particular judgment.
I provided a very traditional Catholic commentary which confirmed my opinion, that Purgatory is EITHER in the Particular OR the General judgment. That was the Haydock. And before you get worked up again, I’m not claiming the Haydock to have binding authority. But it is well respected among the faithful as representing orthodox Teaching.
There is no need to throw “heresy bombs” because I’m not doubting anything that has been declared by through the Magisterium. I’m merely saying, I don’t think it has specifically been Taught.
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blanchardman
Guest
THANK YOU< this is NOW a teaching moment
Hi-lighted in red aboveGen 1:26-27 sates: "And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them
The Bible also teaches that as a consequences of Original Sin:
Genesis 3:19
**In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return.
**
So we are Created like GOD
But our Bodies return to DUST when we die.
Q?
How then can their be “life-ever-lasting?”
In the entire UNIVERSE of BILLIONS of planets, stars and galaxies; only ONE, only EARTH can be proven to be able to support life forms.
On Planet EARTH, with its hundreds of millions of Living THINGS, only One; only man can choose to love or to hate and to rationalize.
**In order for man to do this certain attributes are essential:
A MIND {not the brain}
A Intellect {NOT “I.Q”}
& a Freewill**
Like our GOD, these things are too Eternal, unable to be killed & can’t die. This package GRANTED to ALL of humanity {not only believers} is what will spend Eternity either in Hell or in Heaven [often after Purgatory]
The Particular Judgment takes place at the INSTANT of mortal-death. Our Life-choices are instantly confirmed by our GOD, & it is we who choose the place of our eternity.
God B;ess you,:
PJM
Gen 1:26&27 See my post #711
Gen 3:19 This is why the “dead in Christ” are resurrected incorruptible (1 Cor 15:52).
It then states that the living must “put on” incorruption.
At this point Gen 3:19 no longer applies to the believers. Our body will not die or decay.
The saints who were still on earth, it state, must do something that the saints returning with Jesus need not do.
They must " put on" immortality.If the returning saints do not have to put on immortality then they must have already done so. They did this at a time when they were spirit and soul only.
My question to you is; which of these two must “put on” immortality?
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PJM
Guest
I’m A Catholic:thumbsup:
Much like the RCC which holds Easter and Christmas as “High-day’s”; similarly, the Jews hold Passover and other Yahweh mandated Feast as being of GREATER signifiance.
I’m not sure of which other ones:shrug:
God Bless you,
Patrick
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PJM
Guest
The RCC & therefore I, disagree with the parts of your post that I have highlighted in BLUE
Catholic Catechism:
1022 **Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, **-- or immediate and everlasting damnation.
At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love END QUOTE
There is no lack of clarity in this Doctrine. JUDGEMENT TAKES PLACE AT THE “INSTANT” OF MORTAL DEATH.
God Bless you,
PJM
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PJM
Guest
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PJM
Guest
Your POST #711
Gen 3: 19 “In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return”.
My friend,
You’re not understanding correctly either the fact that all humanity have from the instant of their conception until time immortal a “Immortal component”; or are somehow confusing the Particular Judgment {at the instant of mortal death} & the GENERAL-Judgment with takes place at the “End Times” when all Souls will be reunited with their NOW “Glorified and Perfect bodies.”
Genesis 1: 26-27 teaches that ALL humanity are created in the “Image & Likeness” of God.
John 4: 23-24 Teaches that God Is “SPIRIT”
Therefore for Gen 1 to be correct man MUST have a “Spiritual reality” to emulate God.
We do
In all of Creation only man can choose to love or to hate & to rationalize.
In order to do any of these requires absoutely:
A MIND {not meaning brain}
A INTELLECT {not meaning “I.Q.”}
A Freewill
ALL OF WHICH are permanent attachments to man’s SOUL, which for this discussion we define as the which animates LIFE.
Now quantify for me your “freewill.”
WHAT IS IT’S size, shape, color and weight? Can’t be done, yet only a fool would attempt to convince themselves that it does not exist
It is the {MT TERM} “other self” that IS IMMORTAL, cannot be killed and never dies. It is the “other self” that is destined to spend Eternity in Hell or Heaven; until the GENERAL Judgment and the unification once again of or THEN, now PERFECTED Immortal-bodies with our always have been Immortal Souls. Amen:thumbsup:
And YES, those SOULS that still exist at the time of the General Judgment on planet each will face immortality and Eternity instantly Judged for Hell or Heaven.
My friend you have a very good understanding for not being a Catholic
God Bless you,
PJM
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rcwitness
Guest
I do agree that it seems as though Purgatory is assigned to the Particular Judgment by the Catechism and father’s in the Church.
This means, we must accept that “the Day” referred to in 1 Cor. 3 by St Paul, is not restricted to the Resurrection, but implies the moment our judgment begins through the resurrection. This was my whole discernment attempt with blanchardman.
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