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PJM
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THANKS Mike:thumbsup: AMEN!
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PJM
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AGREED, Thank you
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blanchardman
Guest
A lot of talk,most of it not supported by scriptures.Your POST #711
Gen 3: 19 “In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return”.
My friend,
You’re not understanding correctly either the fact that all humanity have from the instant of their conception until time immortal a “Immortal component”; or are somehow confusing the Particular Judgment {at the instant of mortal death} & the GENERAL-Judgment with takes place at the “End Times” when all Souls will be reunited with their NOW “Glorified and Perfect bodies.”
Genesis 1: 26-27 teaches that ALL humanity are created in the “Image & Likeness” of God.
John 4: 23-24 Teaches that God Is “SPIRIT”
Therefore for Gen 1 to be correct man MUST have a “Spiritual reality” to emulate God.
We do
In all of Creation only man can choose to love or to hate & to rationalize.
In order to do any of these requires absoutely:
A MIND {not meaning brain}
A INTELLECT {not meaning “I.Q.”}
A Freewill
ALL OF WHICH are permanent attachments to man’s SOUL, which for this discussion we define as the which animates LIFE.
Now quantify for me your “freewill.”
WHAT IS IT’S size, shape, color and weight? Can’t be done, yet only a fool would attempt to convince themselves that it does not exist
It is the {MT TERM} “other self” that IS IMMORTAL, cannot be killed and never dies. It is the “other self” that is destined to spend Eternity in Hell or Heaven; until the GENERAL Judgment and the unification once again of or THEN, now PERFECTED Immortal-bodies with our always have been Immortal Souls. Amen:thumbsup:
And YES, those SOULS that still exist at the time of the General Judgment on planet each will face immortality and Eternity instantly Judged for Hell or Heaven.
My friend you have a very good understanding for not being a Catholic
God Bless you,
PJM
And none of it answers my question.
You state “Therefore for Gen 1 to be correct man MUST have a “Spiritual reality” to emulate God.
I ask; of body, soul& spirit which do you think best fits your “Spiritual reality”?
Could it be that part that came from God?
Could the mind, intellect& freewill be connected to the the spirit?
The soul as I pointed out can die, be killed, destroyed. It is the soul of the saints who remain on earth at the second coming that must put on immortality.
Remember it is the spirit which returns to God. It still connected to the soul after “natural” death but alone after the"second death”.
The "Particular Judgment " you speak of would award immortality to those who are worthy.
It is at the “GENERAL-Judgment” that our works are judged and we are refined.
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PJM
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My FRIEND,
I have shared this evidence nearly a hundred times without a single person questioning its veracity & logic.
BUT I will try again to respond to your questions as SPACE Permits
- Where in the Bible does it say EVERYTHING HAS to be in the Bible? Jn 20:30-31 & Jn 21:24-25 TEACH the opposite
- GOD: Jn 4:23-24 " But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. [24] **God is a spirit; **and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth.
- Not ONLY CAN they; but they MUST be; as they too ARE like GOD, Spiritual Realities
- OK:shrug:So how do YOU kill a invisible SOUL?
- The SPIRIT that returns to GOD IS thee SOUL:shrug:
- Immortality is the “Nature” of the SOUL with a mind, intellect & freewill attached
- I have not the slightest idea of what is meant by “redefined”? At the General Judgment all of Bad & good life choices we have made will be made evident to ALL. Then our decomposed BODIES will be risen in a Now GLORIFIED STATE & reunited with our “Spiritual other-self”
PJM
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blanchardman
Guest
PJM:
Let us see if we can find common ground.
1: Man is triune as described in 1 Thes 5:23 “spirit and soul and body”.
2: The spirit returns to God at death. Ecclesiastes 12:7
3: The spirit and soul can be separated. Hebrews 4:12
4: The soul can be destroyed. Matthew 10:28 ( and yes this word does mean " totally destroyed".
5: The spirit can be saved from this destruction. 1Corinthians 5:5
Let us see if we can find common ground.
1: Man is triune as described in 1 Thes 5:23 “spirit and soul and body”.
2: The spirit returns to God at death. Ecclesiastes 12:7
3: The spirit and soul can be separated. Hebrews 4:12
4: The soul can be destroyed. Matthew 10:28 ( and yes this word does mean " totally destroyed".
5: The spirit can be saved from this destruction. 1Corinthians 5:5
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PJM
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I disagree with you’re terminology AND with your conclusion
“Spirit” & Soul" ARE one and the same
1st Thess 5: 23
“[23] And may the God of peace himself sanctify you in all things; that your whole spirit, and soul, and body, may be preserved blameless in the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”
Haydock’s Bible Commentary:
Ver. 23. Spirit, and soul. The former marks the understanding, the latter the will: hence these two terms give the two principal faculties of the soul. (Bible de Vence)
.
DEPENDS on what precisely YOU mean by “spirit”?
Ecc 12: 7
[7] And the dust return into its earth, from whence it was, and the spirit return to God, who gave it.
WHICH verifies my position of Body= dust
SOUL= emulation of our God [Gen 1:26-37] and similar to GOD is immortal
Heb 4:12
[12] For the word of God is living and effectual, and more piercing than any two edged sword; and reaching unto the division of the soul and the spirit, of the joints also and the marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
**
2Peter 1: 19-21
And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. [21] For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.
2nd. Peter 3: 14-18
“Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen”**
4: The soul can be destroyed. Matthew 10:28 ( and yes this word does mean " totally destroyed".
“Destroy” as used here is a metaphysical -Lesson; meaning to be able to condemn the SOUL to Hell for eternity
Again Haydock’s Bible Commentary
Ver. 28. Fear not those that, &c. Men are afraid of a prison, yet they are not afraid of hell fire. They fear temporal punishments, but dread not the torments of eternal fire. (St. Augustine in Baradius) — He who continually fears hell, will never fall into it; but he who is negligent, will undoubtedly fall. (St. Chrysostom in Baradius)
WOW
At long last we agree:thumbsup:God Bless you,
PJM
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PJM
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blanchardman
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The first site karaite-korner.org/ I went back to but could not find the statement. I am thinking it was part of a blog or maybe in the comment section.
The second one I found searching Shabbat HaGadol.
I did not bookmark it though.
I will respond to your other post #737 here to save a post count. We are starting to close in on the 1000 limit.
1: What terminology did you disagree with? Triune? Is God not triune? You say the soul and spirit are the same but Paul says otherwise. Then you turn to a source outside the Word of God as your only support. 2 Timothy 3:16 says that scripture is profitable for a discussion like this not the words of other men.
I will stop here and ask for an explanation of the scriptures you quoted for #3.
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PJM
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Perhaps if you’s define both “Spirit” & “Soul”, I will be better able to grasp your point?
God Bless you,
Patrick
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blanchardman
Guest
Do you need to know what the soul is to believe what is spoken in the Word of God about it?
It is one of the three parts of man.1 Thes 5:23.
It can be separated from the spirit. HEB 4:12
It can die. Ezekiel 18:4&20
It can be destroyed. Matthew 10:28
Beyond this I do not know what else I can say.
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rcwitness
Guest
I don’t feel like I have to disagree with you over the “likeness” and “image” which we have in common with God. That is a body, soul, spirit. But do you think there is more to it than those characteristics? Here are a couple commentaries about Genesis 1:26
NAB RE:
In our image, after our likeness: “image” and “likeness” (virtually synonyms) express the worth of human beings who have value in themselves (human blood may not be shed in9:6because of this image of God) and in their task, dominion (1:28), which promotes the rule of God over the universe.
Haydock:
Let us make man to our image.Thisimageof God in man, is not in the body, but in the soul; which is aspiritualsubstance, endued with understanding and free-will. God speaketh here in the plural number, to insinuate the plurality ofpersonsin the Deity. (Challoner) — Some of the ancient Jews maintained that God here addressed his council, the Angels; but is it probable that he should communicate to them the title of Creator, and a perfect similitude with himself? (Calmet) — Man is possessed of many prerogatives above all other creatures of this visible world: his soul gives him a sort of equality with the Angels; and though his body be taken from the earth, like the brutes, yet even here the beautiful construction, the head erect and looking towards heaven, &c. makes St. Augustine observe, an air of majesty in the human body, which raises man above all terrestrial animals, and brings him in some measure near to the Divinity. As Jesus assumed our human nature, we may assert, that we bear a resemblance to God both in soul and body. Tertullian (de Resur. 5.) says, “Thus that slime, putting on already the image of Christ, who would come in the flesh, was not only the work of God, but also a pledge.” (Haydock) See St. Bernard on Psalm xcix. (Worthington)
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FabiusMaximus
Guest
I have a question for you PJM:
Why is there some much variation among parishes in how they conduct Mass? Why are there some that celebrate it solemnly and reverentially and others that do not?
Why is there some much variation among parishes in how they conduct Mass? Why are there some that celebrate it solemnly and reverentially and others that do not?
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blanchardman
Guest
When God had finished shapping the lump of clay it was a image of God. When He put " the breath of life (spirit)" into that clay image it took on the likeness of God and became a living soul. Gen 2:7
The “likeness” is in our spiritual nature.
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PJM
Guest
.
Haydock’s Commentary
Ver. 23. Spirit, and soul. The former marks the understanding, the latter the will: hence these two terms give the two principal faculties of the soul.
Haydock’s
Ver. 12. For the word of God is living, &c. Some understand by the word of God, the eternal word, or Son of God: (to whom may apply all in the 12th and 13th verses) but others rather expound it of the words, promises, and menaces of God, either foretold by the prophets, or preached by the apostles. (Witham) — All this language is metaphorical, but perfectly well understood by the Jews. In their sacrifices, the Levites made use of a two-edged knife to separate from the victim what was for God, what was for the priests, and what was for the people. Thus in sacrificing sinners to the justice of God, Jesus Christ, like a two-edged knife, will separate what is for God, and what is for man; i.e. whatever is good or evil in the whole of man’s conduct.
Haydock’s
.Ver. 4. Mine. He insinuates the vocation of the Gentiles and the general redemption. All will be treated according to their works.[MEANING that a soul seeped in Mortal sin will face Eternal HELL] [PJM]
Haydock’s
.Ver. 28. Fear not those that, &c. Men are afraid of a prison, yet they are not afraid of hell fire. They fear temporal punishments, but dread not the torments of eternal fire. (St. Augustine in Baradius) — He who continually fears hell, will never fall into it; but he who is negligent, will undoubtedly fall. (St. Chrysostom in Baradius) [AGAIN “destroy” means Eternal Hell, NOT actual destruction of the SOUL…PJM]
Let’s say for the sake of dialog that your right here [your not], but let’s assume that you are.Then because your so adept at translating the bible, you could do ALL of us a huge favor and explain these two closely-related passages:
Gen 1:26-27
26] And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. [27] And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them
John 4:23-24
[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. [24] God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth.END QUOTES
So if God is Spirit; how then does MORTAL man emulate God?
If the Soul dies and the BODY returns to DUST; then WHAT faces the Judgments? Is there no eternity? No eternal consequences to man’s life-choices on earth:shrug:
Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return.
And BTW, you never did answer my request to define for us the difference between the Soul and the the Spirit? Nor do I recall if you take Literally John 6: 46-57?
Easter Blessings,
PJM
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PJM
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PJM
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a Good & Fair question
There are a multitude of reasons.
1st is the priestly formation of that celebrant-priest.
The RCC has yet to fully recover from the post-Vatican II upheavals that consumed the Church after Vatican II with many and much personal effort to “bring the Church” into the 20th Century, and to “make it more relevant” [For WHOM exactly largely left undefined precisely]
Very much has been corrected, RUBICS rules of saying the Mass in line with Romes mandates are more clear and precise.
2nd. There are still priest who feel empowered to translate according to their personal preferences, BOWS for genuflections, BUT often this is a decision based on personal physical limitations as well.
We MUST endeavor to get past these differences of FAR less significance than the making PRESENT our God into our midst. we are there to WORSHIP God, NOT to judge and second guess our priest.
The differences may appear to an outsider o be important; but the reality is that they are not. Nor for the most part are they even significant.
The Mass is never so variant as to NOT be seen; to NOT be recognized as the Catholic Mass. And every Catholic Mass bring our God; brings Jesus Himself into our midst. AMEN!
Easter Blessings,
PJM
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PJM
Guest
a Good & Fair question
There are a multitude of reasons.
1st is the priestly formation of that celebrant-priest.
The RCC has yet to fully recover from the post-Vatican II upheavals that consumed the Church after Vatican II with many and much personal effort to “bring the Church” into the 20th Century, and to “make it more relevant” [For WHOM exactly largely left undefined precisely]
Very much has been corrected, RUBICS [rules of saying the Mass in line with Romes mandates are more clear and precise.
The formation of priest is the Bishops responsibility. Bishops too are very human, and there levels of personal piety are sometimes reflected through the priest of his diocese
While the CC Herself cannot sin, those making up “the Church” certainly can and DO.
2nd. There are still priest who feel empowered to translate according to their personal preferences, BOWS for genuflections, BUT often this is a decision based on personal physical limitations as well.
We MUST endeavor to get past these differences of FAR less significance than the making PRESENT our God into our midst. we are there to WORSHIP God, NOT to judge and second guess our priest.
The differences may appear to an outsider o be important; but the reality is that they are not. Nor for the most part are they even significant.
3td The Ordained too have their own levels of PERSONAL-Piety. And this often become evidenced through the Mass to the people in the pews.
**The Mass is never so variant as to NOT be seen; to NOT be recognized as the Catholic Mass. And every Catholic Mass bring our God; brings Jesus Himself into our midst. AMEN! AND THIS, one does NOT find outside of the Catholic & Orthodox Churches.
Lapsed Catholics actually GIVE UP GOD, for some personal whim
Easter Blessings,
PJM
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blanchardman
Guest
I have not “translated” any part of the bible. I have summarized but I include the scripture reference for you to check out..
Haydock’s Commentary
Ver. 23. Spirit, and soul. The former marks the understanding, the latter the will: hence these two terms give the two principal faculties of the soul.
Haydock’s
Ver. 12. For the word of God is living, &c. Some understand by the word of God, the eternal word, or Son of God: (to whom may apply all in the 12th and 13th verses) but others rather expound it of the words, promises, and menaces of God, either foretold by the prophets, or preached by the apostles. (Witham) — All this language is metaphorical, but perfectly well understood by the Jews. In their sacrifices, the Levites made use of a two-edged knife to separate from the victim what was for God, what was for the priests, and what was for the people. Thus in sacrificing sinners to the justice of God, Jesus Christ, like a two-edged knife, will separate what is for God, and what is for man; i.e. whatever is good or evil in the whole of man’s conduct.
Haydock’s
.Ver. 4. Mine. He insinuates the vocation of the Gentiles and the general redemption. All will be treated according to their works.[MEANING that a soul seeped in Mortal sin will face Eternal HELL] [PJM]
Haydock’s
.Ver. 28. Fear not those that, &c. Men are afraid of a prison, yet they are not afraid of hell fire. They fear temporal punishments, but dread not the torments of eternal fire. (St. Augustine in Baradius) — He who continually fears hell, will never fall into it; but he who is negligent, will undoubtedly fall. (St. Chrysostom in Baradius) [AGAIN “destroy” means Eternal Hell, NOT actual destruction of the SOUL…PJM]
Then because your so adept at translating the bible, you could do ALL of us a huge favor and explain these two closely-related passages:
Gen 1:26-27
26] And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. [27] And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them
John 4:23-24
[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. [24] God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth.END QUOTES
So if God is Spirit; how then does MORTAL man emulate God?
If the Soul dies and the BODY returns to DUST; then WHAT faces the Judgments? Is there no eternity? No eternal consequences to man’s life-choices on earth:shrug:
Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return.
And BTW, you never did answer my request to define for us the difference between the Soul and the the Spirit? Nor do I recall if you take Literally John 6: 46-57?
Easter Blessings,
PJM
I do not use commentaries in support of my positions and I find the frequent reliance on Haydock a bit depressing. Can you not support your positions from the bible? It looks to me that the answer to any verse that disagrees with your religion’s teachings is " it is a metaphor".
I will respond to your question about John 6:46-57 after this discussion is finished. (It took over an hour to (name removed by moderator)ut this reply.)
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PJM
Guest
My FRIEND, your seeking personal approval NOT thee TRUTH
I’ll let you and God work it out
Easter Blessings,
- Status