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PJM
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“Con-celebration” covers the responsibility for all of the active Priest /Bishops
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rcwitness
Guest
Ah, ok! I see where you are coming from, now. I believe you are right in a sense. It is the “fire” of the Spirit which convicts us of sin. This begins when we hear, believe, and are Baptized. Yet, Purgatory is not so different from this, other than the fact that it is done after our earthly life. It’s not Purgatory that determines whether we are saved or not. And it’s not by Purgatory that we are saved. It’s the reality of His Holy Spirit revealing what we refused to accept in our earthly life, and by faith.
Here is the Vatican online Catechism section on Purgatory. It references 1 Cor. 3:15
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM
We consider the Catechism to be the most reliable Catholic Teaching.
Are u talking about Catholic Answers? If so, yes, you are welcome to discuss and disagree. Especially in the non-Catholic forum. As long as you respect and follow guidelines, it is good to have your fellowship.
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PJM
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THAT my friend is an uniformed & personal opinion, NOT conforming to the teachings of our Catholic Magesterium.I guess I have been trying to suggest that the doctrine of Purgatory does not tell us whether it comes before or after bodily resurrection. We pray now, yes, but we are praying to God, who is in eternity for the souls in Purgatory. It’s not as though they are experiencing time relevant to us.
I can appreciate your concern about this. I hope you don’t think I am just giving a knee jerk reaction to your objection.
The RCC teaches that there will be [ARE] two Judgments:
The “Particular”
The “General”
The Particular Judgment takes place at the INSTANT of the mortal death of a body; and that is where Heaven Hell or Purgatory are resukts of our personal life-choices; and are made evident and applied.
The General Judgment is at the end Times
God Bless you,
Patrick
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PJM
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Haydock’s Catholic commentary sahres this on Maccabees 12: 43-45
Ver. 43. Twelve. Greek, “two.” Syriac, “three.” St. Prosper. reads “12,000 talents.” Sacrifices for the dead were not enjoined, but the practice was then established, and this author takes every opportunity of proving the resurrection against the Sadducees, who then began to appear. The Church of Christ has adopted the same practice. See Bellarmine, Serarius, &c. Our adversaries confess that such was the opinion of the Jews, and of the ancient doctors of the Church. But they declare it superstitious, and deny the authority of these books, which has been sufficiently established. Could such holy personages authorize superstition? Would Christ and his apostles have tolerated it? St. Paul prayed for Onesiphorus after his decease, 2 Timothy i. 16. See Matthew xii. 33., and Luke xvi. 9., and 1 Corinthians iii. 13., and xv. 29.; Eusebius, Life of Constantine iv.; St. Epiphanius, hær. lxxv.; St. Cyprian i. ep. 9.; Tertullian, &c. (Calmet)
Ver. 45. With godliness. Judas hoped that these men who died fighting for the cause of God and religion, might find mercy; either because they might be excused from mortal sin by ignorance, or might have repented of their sin at least at their death. (Challoner) — Charity requires us to judge thus, when there are no positive proofs to the contrary. (Calmet) — Pope John VIII answered the bishops of France, that those who died fighting against infidels were saved. (Mabil. T. iii. An. Ben.) — Judas might entertain the like hopes, though they are not always well grounded. (Haydock)
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rcwitness
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Thanks. I am aware of the distinction of the Particular Judgment and the General Judgment. And I think that placing Purgatory during the Particular may seem appropriate and logical. I won’t argue with that. But, since you say I’m wrong in saying the Church has not specified when Purgatory occurs, are you able to show this?
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PJM
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Any other position that immediately following the Particular Judgment would be meaningless
From our Catholic Catechism.
1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation.
At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love {Divine Justice is LOVE}]
1051 Every man receives his eternal recompense in his immortal soul from the moment of his death in a particular judgment by Christ, the judge of the living and the dead.
1781 Conscience enables one to assume responsibility for the acts performed. If man commits evil, the just judgment of conscience can remain within him as the witness to the universal truth of the good, at the same time as the evil of his particular choice. The verdict of the judgment of conscience remains a pledge of hope and mercy. In attesting to the fault committed, it calls to mind the forgiveness that must be asked, the good that must still be practiced, and the virtue that must be constantly cultivated with the grace of God:
We shall . . . reassure our hearts before him whenever our hearts condemn us; for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.
If in the final judgment one were NOT to go through Purgatory; that Soul would either be in HELL or Heaven.
Matthew 5:48
Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.
Luke 6:40
The disciple is not above his master: but every one shall be perfect, if he be as his master.
Matt.5: [26] truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
ONLY Souls that are like God" {made} perfect; can enter into the Beatific Vision. Amen:thumbsup:
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rcwitness
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Or does it? I guess it could be debated because the bolder part still does not specify when purification takes place. Notice it says, “either… through a purification OR immediately…”I’d agree that this section confirms your posts.
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Abu
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No, it is quite clear:
The purification is if there is need.
The purification is if there is need.
- Either entrance into the blessedness of heaven through purification – if not entrance to heaven is immediate. Purification in Purgatory starts at once, if needed.
- Otherwise – immediate and everlasting damnation.
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Wannano
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I can see what you are saying…
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jane_doe
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Question: what is meant by “being in communion with Rome”?
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PJM
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PJM
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It means all of the following:
In agreement on ALL Faith matters with Rome
Subject to Rome
Full unity with Rome:thumbsup:
Thanks for asking,
God Bless you,
Patrick
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rcwitness
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I do think it (section 1022) seems to interpret that Purgatory takes place within the Particular Judgment. It seems that the context of the statement after the colan is all relative to the Particular Judgment addressed before it.
1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation.
I simply think that it does leave room for a possible interpretation that said “purification” could possibly take place at any time before entrance into heaven. So I am merely saying I believe it’s not specific enough to say the Magisterium has officially confirmed one or the other.
This is all relative to the notion that “The Day” which St Paul refers to in 1 Cor. 3:13 may refer to the General Judgment.
But for what it’s worth, I do lean towards your, and PJM’s opinion.
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jane_doe
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So “full communion with Rome” = “you accept Francis as the boss”???
I feel like I’m not getting this.
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rcwitness
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I agree it is likely, but not so clear.
Thank you.
Here is the commentary on verse 13, regarding “The Day” and it’s context with Purgaroty, which the Catechism does confirm is referring to Purgatory:
*By the Day of the Lord,is commonly understood either the day of general judgment, or the particular judgment, when every one is judged at his death, which sentence shall be confirmed again at the last day. 4. As to*fire,which is mentioned thrice, if we consider what St. Paul says here of fire, he seems to use it in different significations, as he many times does other words. First, he tells us, (ver. 13.) thatthe day of the Lord…shall be revealed;*or, as it is in the Greek,*is revealed in,or byfire;where, byfire,is commonly understood the just and severe judgments of God, represented by the metaphor offire.Secondly, he tells us in the same verse, thatfire shall try every one’s work, of what sort it is.*This may be again taken for the examining and trying fire of God’s judgments: and may be applied to the builders, whether preachers only or all the faithful. Thirdly, he tells us,
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LivingWaters7
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It essentially refers to the churches that are under the authority of the Bishop of Rome, and subscribe to the fulness of Catholic teachings. Protestants and Orthodox are not in full communion with Rome.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church#Churches_sui_iuis
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rcwitness
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Well, the term “boss” is more appropriate with a business. The Church is a body, with leadership and offices. The Pope is a father to the people, in a sense. He is a steward of Jesus, the King. He is a pastor to the whole flock of Christ. He can use the keys given to Simon Peter in distinction to the rest of the College of Bishops. His office constitutes divine Confirmation of Apostolic Teaching.
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