Do you have Questions for a Southern Baptist?

[Faithdancer]

Because of the Slavery issue. Baptist in the south believed it was okay to own slaves and baptist in the north didn’t. Prior to the onset of hostilities in the Civil War the Southern Baptist formed their own convention.

In 1995 (a long time after it should have happened) the SBC issued an apology and has worked toward racial reconciliation. The 1995 Statement can be read here.

Here is a portion of that statement:

Be it further RESOLVED, That we lament and repudiate historic acts of evil such as slavery from which we continue to reap a bitter harvest, and we recognize that the racism which yet plagues our culture today is inextricably tied to the past; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we apologize to all African-Americans for condoning and/or perpetuating individual and systemic racism in our lifetime; and we genuinely repent of racism of which we have been guilty, whether consciously (Psalm 19:13) or unconsciously (Leviticus 4:27); and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we ask forgiveness from our African-American brothers and sisters, acknowledging that our own healing is at stake; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we hereby commit ourselves to eradicate racism in all its forms from Southern Baptist life and ministry; and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we commit ourselves to be doers of the Word (James 1:22) by pursuing racial reconciliation in all our relationships, especially with our brothers and sisters in Christ (1 John 2:6), to the end that our light would so shine before others, that they may see (our) good works and glorify (our) Father in heaven (Matthew 5:16); and

Be it finally RESOLVED, That we pledge our commitment to the Great Commission task of making disciples of all people (Matthew 28:19), confessing that in the church God is calling together one people from every tribe and nation (Revelation 5:9), and proclaiming that the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is the only certain and sufficient ground upon which redeemed persons will stand together in restored family union as joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).

I’ve been to a couple / few SBC services. Finishing a fourth class in the Baylor-Truett Certificate of Ministry program, though might put that on hold as I may be accepted in an (non-denom) MDiv program. Anyway, one of the Baylor classes was a history of Texas Baptists, which was interesting. And I have a general understanding of the SBC, including the trend toward a more Reformation theology (Al Mohler et. al.)

I’ve also been to a couple of Fundy / Independent Baptist services, which were interesting. Don’t think I’ve ever been to a designated “Northern Baptist” service. That said, here’s my favorite Northern Baptist joke:

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, “Don’t do it!” He said, “Nobody loves me.” I said, “God loves you. Do you believe in God?”

He said, “Yes.” I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?” He said, “A Christian.” I said, “Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me, too! What franchise?” He said, “Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?” He said, “Northern Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”

He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region.” I said, “Me, too!”

Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.” I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over.

from theguardian.com/stage/2005/sep/29/comedy.religion

 

[Darryl_B]

Both the SBC and the ABCUSA descend from the Triennial Convention. The southern Baptists left the Triennial Convention in 1845 because its Home Mission Society refused to allow slaveholders to serve as missionaries. Thereafter, the Triennial Convention represented Baptists in the Northeast while the SBC obviously represented Southern Baptists.

In 1907, the Triennial Convention’s entire denominational structure was reorganized into the Northern Baptist Convention, which changed its name to American Baptist Churches, USA. So, Northern Baptists today call themselves “American Baptists.”

However, Southern Baptist churches are found throughout the United States. There are 16 million Southern Baptists compared to 1.2 million American Baptists. Ironically, Southern Baptists outnumber northern Baptists even in their home turf.

Thanks for that info my friend. You posted as I was writing. You seem to make the difference as affiliated structure, is this a fair assessment?

 

[Darryl_B]

I’m not aware of any formal relationship. There may be, and probably is, a relationship in communities that have congregations of both in the same community. Most Southern Baptist churches have good relationships with other churches within their community. An example is having joint services to raise fund/donations for food banks and so forth. Our town has a community Thanksgiving Service every year with several Baptist churches, Methodist, Presbyterian, and Assembly of God churches. Everyone brings canned goods and the offering goes to the local food program.

BTW- there is no Northern Baptist Convention. There is a convention called American Baptist Churches USA. I think, at one time, there called themselves the Northern Baptist Convention.

I will ask my question in a slightly simpler more personal way. If you were to come to my country on holiday, which church would you go to?

 

[Potter]

I haven been on this board for a few weeks and have appreciated the answers to my inquiries about Catholicism. I have learned a great deal about the Catholic church and theology both from the threads on this message board and other places (websites books…).

First of all, greetings from a fellow Alabamian! I’ve had the pleasure of visiting the Grotto as well, though I didn’t get to experience a service at the Monastery.

I grew up in the Pentecostal movement, so I don’t know much of anything about southern baptists other than they won’t say hello to you in the liquor store. (I kid, I kid.) Are they casually anti-catholic like Pentecostals are? And if so, have you seen anything in Catholicism that you wish your co-religionists recognized as a common strength? For instance, the avowed commitment to marriage and the protection of the unborn, the staunch defense of the family, the incorporation of religious practice into so much of everyday life. When I first came here and realized how serious Catholics were about the faith, I began thinking it strange that Pentecostals and such didn’t embrace orthodox Catholics as allies in many areas.

 

[Expatreprocedit]

Some do and I think it is silly. Actually, when we moved to Alabama we visited a church and the preacher said just that. We never went back to that church. I actually got on the internet and looked up the arguments and ran across all this information about how wine is healthy for you. I started drinking a bottle of wine a week to lower my cholesterol and decrease my chance for heart disease.

That Baptist preacher doesn’t know it be he got me started drinking.

Then don’t you want to celebrate the Last Supper the way Christ did, with real wine?

 

[ltwin]

Thanks for that info my friend. You posted as I was writing. You seem to make the difference as affiliated structure, is this a fair assessment?

Yes, they are two completely different structures originally based on geography. (Think about the difference between the Anglican Church of New Zealand and the Anglican Church of Australia. Same tradition but different regional bodies.)

Today, however, the two have churches all over the country and so the regional identity is somewhat diluted.

However, there is also a cultural difference and theological difference. The American Baptists tend to embrace a wider variety of theological choice. They are more tolerant of liberal theological perspectives. The Southern Baptists, however, tend to be more representative of the American evangelical mainstream.

In regards to your question as to what would be comparable in New Zealand, I suppose it would be churches affiliated with the Baptist Union of New Zealand.

 

[Darryl_B]

So eg TD Jakes for instance who is “non-denominational” in declaration, really just means he hasn’t joined any Association?

Which then begs the next question, could one set up a local Church and call themselves Southern Baptist without joining the Association?

 

[Expatreprocedit]

FYI we believe that she is the daughter of the Eternal Father,

I have to question this one.

 

[lanman87]

I will ask my question in a slightly simpler more personal way. If you were to come to my country on holiday, which church would you go to?

I would find an evangelical church that is similar to what Baptist Teach. Most evangelicals are pretty comfortable in any evangelical church. The differences are minor in most main stream evangelical churches.

 

[Faithdancer]

I would find an evangelical church that is similar to what Baptist Teach. Most evangelicals are pretty comfortable in any evangelical church. The differences are minor in most main stream evangelical churches.

In fact, many Southern Baptists today might feel right at home in a Reformed church.

 

[lanman87]

So eg TD Jakes for instance who is “non-denominational” in declaration, really just means he hasn’t joined any Association?

Which then begs the next question, could one set up a local Church and call themselves Southern Baptist without joining the Association?

Not and be telling the truth. Southern Baptist churches are actually part of three different related organizations. In Alabama we have the local association, which is usually a county wide association. Then all the churches in the state are part of the Alabama Baptist Convention, then all the churches in the world are part of the Southern Baptist Convention.

At each level the member churches work together for ministry/missions.

If a member church went off the rails and did something the other churches considered un-Biblical then the local association can vote to remove that particular church from the association. If a new church wants to be a member of the association then the current member churches vote to allow or not allow the church to become “Southern Baptist”.

 

[lanman87]

In fact, many Southern Baptists today might feel right at home in a Reformed church.

Yes, there is a movement in the Southern Baptist Community to make the Southern Baptist Reformed. Al Mohler who is president of the Southern Baptist Seminary in Kentucky is leading the charge.

 

[ltwin]

So eg TD Jakes for instance who is “non-denominational” in declaration, really just means he hasn’t joined any Association?

Which then begs the next question, could one set up a local Church and call themselves Southern Baptist without joining the Association?

Why would you associate T. D. Jakes with the Southern Baptists? He comes out of the African-American Oneness Pentecostal tradition. Most Southern Baptists would probably have an issue with his prosperity gospel teachings if not his teachings on Spirit baptism and the Trinity.

 

[ltwin]

Not and be telling the truth. Southern Baptist churches are actually part of three different related organizations. In Alabama we have the local association, which is usually a county wide association. Then all the churches in the state are part of the Alabama Baptist Convention, then all the churches in the world are part of the Southern Baptist Convention.

At each level the member churches work together for ministry/missions.

If a member church went off the rails and did something the other churches considered un-Biblical then the local association can vote to remove that particular church from the association. If a new church wants to be a member of the association then the current member churches vote to allow or not allow the church to become “Southern Baptist”.

Do you have competing state conventions for different “tribes” such as more liberal or more conservative conventions?

 

[Darryl_B]

I would find an evangelical church that is similar to what Baptist Teach. Most evangelicals are pretty comfortable in any evangelical church. The differences are minor in most main stream evangelical churches.

Then you may very well have attended the church which I used to go to before being drawn to the Catholic Church.

I do though think however that the term “evangelical” is a deceptive description. I have found that all churches are evangelical, including the Catholic Church. All of them. There is no exclusive monopoly on “evangelism”. The difference perhaps is that the evangelical churches also spend a great deal of focus on evangelizing the already evangelized. Usually at the expense of theology. So often the laity shy away from theology and leave that to the realm of their pastors. “Ahh good question I will go and ask my pastor”.

Its a situation that seemed to suit a generation. It could also be why there is this move to Reformed. Reformed are very strong on their Systematic Theology.

 

[Darryl_B]

Why would you associate T. D. Jakes with the Southern Baptists? He comes out of the African-American Oneness Pentecostal tradition. Most Southern Baptists would probably have an issue with his prosperity gospel teachings if not his teachings on Spirit baptism and the Trinity.

Russell D. Moore, dean of the school of theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., said he takes “Bishop Jakes at his word that he holds to Trinitarianism.”

Dated 2012.

Jakes, founder and senior pastor of The Potter’s House in Dallas, was the focus of a motion at Southern Baptist Convention annual meetings in 2009 and 2010 by a messenger who wanted LifeWay Christian Stores to stop selling his books. One was ruled out of order by the SBC president, the other referred to LifeWay for study.

So it seems to me that SBC has some form of power over LifeWay. But LifeWay stock his books today.

He would therefore be close enough and a valid example to bring to the table.

 

[ltwin]

Dated 2012.

So it seems to me that SBC has some form of power over LifeWay. But LifeWay stock his books today.

He would therefore be close enough and a valid example to bring to the table.

Yes, he’s waddled on his Godhead beliefs over the years as he’s become more well known and exposed to criticism.That Southern Baptists are willing to “take him at his word” just underscores the fact that he’s not one of them so it’s not really their job to investigate his beliefs.

And I’ve no doubt that LifeWay, as a business, decided that he was Christian enough to sell his books. It’s whole business model is to sell stuff that the broader evangelical community likes to buy. They don’t just market themselves to Southern Baptists.

Still, the fact that its come up at Convention meetings on a regular and consistent basis means that at least some SBC members think his beliefs are problematic.

But that doesn’t make him a Baptist. The Southern Baptist missions agencies only recently dropped a requirement that missionaries NOT speak in tongues. Therefore, according to longstanding policy, T. D. Jakes, who speaks in tongues, was unfit to be a missionary. They certainly aren’t rolling out the welcome wagon for him.

 

[Darryl_B]

Yes, he’s waddled on his Godhead beliefs over the years as he’s become more well known and exposed to criticism.That Southern Baptists are willing to “take him at his word” just underscores the fact that he’s not one of them so it’s not really their job to investigate his beliefs.

And I’ve no doubt that LifeWay, as a business, decided that he was Christian enough to sell his books. It’s whole business model is to sell stuff that the broader evangelical community likes to buy. They don’t just market themselves to Southern Baptists.

Still, the fact that its come up at Convention meetings on a regular and consistent basis means that at least some SBC members think his beliefs are problematic.

But that doesn’t make him a Baptist. The Southern Baptist missions agencies only recently dropped a requirement that missionaries NOT speak in tongues. Therefore, according to longstanding policy, T. D. Jakes, who speaks in tongues, was unfit to be a missionary. They certainly aren’t rolling out the welcome wagon for him.

Though the wagon could be politics as much as theology.

 

[SoltauDeEscriva]

How do you justify the fact that the Church Fathers from the very early church supported infant baptism without any sort of decree or dogma confirming its validity until later centuries? It seemed fairly unanimous across the board. Would this not be a sign to you that the Apostles may have taught this as a validity, weighing in the fact that in the Acts full households were baptized because of the conversion of the head? The record of infant baptism support begins before the support of the Roman Empire as well, so I’m not sure how one could use the “trail of blood” argument here. Any thoughts?

 

[lanman87]

Do you have competing state conventions for different “tribes” such as more liberal or more conservative conventions?

Not in Alabama. Some states have a liberal group that left the state convention because the state convention refused to budge on inerrancy of scripture, homosexual marriage and so forth.