Do you have to be Catholic to be Saved?

[Church_Militant]

Abbi,
You’re dead wrong on most all that you offer in this part of your post.

As I understand it, it was illegal to be a christian until Constantine.

Correct though. The Edict of Tolerance (Or Edict of Milan).

Besides, even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus, or His apostles.

I’m sorry Abbi, but this is errant hooey.

In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy,

Actually there is.

worship / adoration of Mary

Catholics do not now, have not ever, and will not ever worship the Blessed Virgin. Like I said you are dead wrong.

(or the immaculate conception of Mary,

Really? I beg to differ. Look at Luke 1:28. Better study to show thyself approved unto God my Kiwi friend.

the perpetual virginity of Mary,

Again, you’re dead wrong. Brethren of the Lord

the assumption of Mary,

Really? So Mary cannot have been assumed into heaven based on Christian historical documents? Do you believe that Moses was assumed into heaven?

or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix),

If you actually understood what the Catholic Church is saying in these terms you would not say that.

petitioning saints in Heaven for their prayers,

Again you are dead wrong about this. Listen to this MP3 Bible study called The Communion of Saints.

apostolic succession,

Really? Better look again…Acts 1:12-26

the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments,

There are no “ordinances”, only sacraments and you’d know that if you studied the Word of God. I Find No Sacraments In the Bible" he said.

infant baptism,

Really? so there were no babies in any of the “whole households” that are mentioned as converting in the New Testament? And St. Polycarp is lying when he tells the proconsul that sentences him to die for the faith that he has been a Christian for 86 years when he was 86 at the time. (See chapter IX)

confession of sin to a priest,

Again you’re wrong. John 20:21-23, 1st John 1:9, James 5:14-16.

purgatory,

Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

indulgences,

Goes along with John 20:21-23, but is especially tied to Matthew 16:18-19 concerning binding and loosing.

or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture.

That’s odd. The Word of God says, “14: I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, 15: if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” (1st Timothy 3. emphasis mine) Notice that it does not say that the Bible is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth”, Nor does St. Paul tell St. Timothy that he is to study the Bible to show himself approved unto God, rightly handling the word of truth. 2nd Timothy 2:15 (Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth).

I don’t mean to offend anyone, but that is the way I see it

I don’t mean to offend you either, but you are so wrong that you need to check out the facts that what you have been taught is not in line with the Word of God nor the historically verifiable teachings of the early church.
[SIGN]Welcome to CAF![/SIGN]

 

[Good_Fella]

Abbi, I hope you haven’t been reading ‘Roman Catholicism’ by the anti-Catholic
Loraine Boettner. Catholic scholars have torn her book to shreds. The work is
as misinformed as you are about the Catholic Faith.

 

[Church_Militant]

Abbi, I hope you haven’t been reading ‘Roman Catholicism’ by the anti-Catholic
Loraine Boettner. Catholic scholars have torn her book to shreds. The work is
as misinformed as you are about the Catholic Faith.

The Boettner List: Fact or Fiction?

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

on dec.9.1854 Pope Pius IX added this allocution…'those who are ignornant of the true religion,if that iignorance is invincible,will not be held guilty in the matter in the eyes of the Lord" this is quoting St.Thomas Acquinas of course also…salvation is a gift of God hence it is not received by everybody…so please dont be deceived by those ‘stand patters’ it is they who hurt the Church more then many others for they make the RCC sound so un-tolerant and reasonable…Nino

A person who is ignorant of the true religion is not guilty in that matter in the eyes of God, that is true. But that does not mean he is thereby justified, or “saved”. Remember, man does not come into this world in a state or grace.To obtain the state of grace, faith is necessary. Thus, not only those who are guilty of rejecting the Church are damned, but also those who die in sin for some other reason.

You said Pius IX comment was quoting St. Thomas. Have you read St. Thomas on this point? St. Thomas quotes St. Augustine as saying that a person who is ignorant of the true faith will not be damned for such ignorance, but instead will be damned for something else. He also teaches, believe it or not, that this ignorance itself is a punishment from God.

St. Thomas: " If we understand those things alone to be in a man’s power, which we can do without the help of grace, then we are bound to do many things which we cannot do without the aid of healing grace, such as to love God and our neighbor, and likewise to believe the articles of faith. But with the help of grace we can do this, for this help “to whomsoever it is given from above it is mercifully given; and from whom it is withheld it is justly withheld, as a punishment of a previous, or at least of original, sin,” as Augustine states (De Corr. et Grat. v, vi *Cf. Ep. cxc; De Praed. Sanct. viii.]).

St. Thomas: “And the ignorance of these things of salvation, the knowledge of which men did not care to have, is, without doubt, a sin for them; but for those who were not able to acquire such knowledge, the want of it is a punishment for their sins”, says St. Augustine; hence both are justly condemned, and neither the one nor the other has a just excuse for being lost." (Epist. ad Sixtum, Edit. Maur. 194, cap. vi., n. 27.)

Ignorance will save no one. How could it? Instead, according to St. Thomas and St. Augustine, such ignorance is a punishment from God for some other sin. If they are ignorant of the truth, yet fear God, St. Thomas teaches that God will cure this ignorance by sending someone to them…

St. Thomas: “Their inculpable (invincible) ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic Faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.”

If you want to know what St. Thomas taught on this point, here is a link to the pertinent section of the Summa ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/SS/SS002.html

Now let’s look and see what Pope Pius IX (who you quoted above) taught.

Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quiden: "Among the many deplorable evils which disturb and afflict both ecclesiastical and civil society, two stand out in our day … indifferentism … embraces people who have strayed from the truth, who are enemies of the true faith and forget their own salvation, and who teach contradictory beliefs without firm doctrine. They make no distinction between the different creeds, agree with everybody, and maintain that the haven of eternal salvation is open to sectarians of any religion. The diversity of their teachings does not concern them as long as they agree to combat that which alone is the truth…

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[Pax_et_Caritas]

continuation of previous post

Pope Pius IX "You see, dearly beloved sons and venerable brothers, how much vigilance is needed to keep the disease of this terrible evil from infecting and killing your flocks. Do not cease to diligently defend your people against these pernicious errors. Saturate them with the doctrine of Catholic truth more accurately each day. Teach them that just as there is only one God, one Christ, one Holy Spirit, so there is also only one truth which is divinely revealed. There is only one divine faith which is the beginning of salvation for mankind and the basis of all justification, the faith by which the just person lives and without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the community of His children.[2] There is only one true, holy, Catholic church, which is the Apostolic Roman Church. There is only one See founded in Peter by the word of the Lord,[3] outside of which we cannot find either true faith or eternal salvation. He who does not have the Church for a mother cannot have God for a father, and whoever abandons the See of Peter on which the Church is established trusts falsely that he is in the Church.[4] " papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9singul.htm

What the Pope taught above is a dogma of our faith. There can be “exceptions”, but the exception must be viewed through the lens of the rule. In the next quote, the same Pope explains the exception in its proper context:

Pope Pius IX: "Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."

"Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom “the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.”[4] The words of Christ are clear enough: “If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;”[5] “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;”[6] “He who does not believe will be condemned;”[7] “He who does not believe is already condemned;”[8] “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.”[9] The Apostle Paul says that such persons are “perverted and self-condemned;”[10] the Prince of the Apostles calls them “false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction.”[11] papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanto.htm

Again, there can be exceptions to the rule, but what we are bound to believe is the rule. For the past 40 years all we have heard about is the exception, to such an extent that today people are shock to hear the rule. They mistakenly believe that a dogma of our faith is “intolerant”. That is extremely serious since the “rule” (the dogma) is a truth that has been revealed to us by God, and which we are bound under pain of sin to believe!

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[Pax_et_Caritas]

continuation

Most of us here are aware of the problem of liberalism in the Church, but what we don’t realize is just how much we ourselves have been influenced by it. If you swim in the sea of liberalism, you can’t help getting wet. The fact that some people are shocked by the quotes I have provided, or somehow think they have been taken out of context, shows just how influenced by liberalism we have been.

Now maybe we can understand why Pope Pius IX said “what I fear more than the commune of Paris is a liberal Catholics”. He further said “the principals of liberalsim will destroy you (you being the Catholics who is influenced by them)”. He made over 40 comments in which he warned of the grave error of liberals. He went so far as to say “a liberal Catholic is the worst enemy of the Catholic Church”.

The Church in America has been invaded by liberal Catholicism. It is in a crisis today. Therefore, let us pray daily to the good God that He will increase our faith and help us to get through these difficult times. We must stand firm in the faith in the face of the liberalism that waters it down.

The crisis we are currently going through was predicted in great detail by many saints… But so was the great “resurrection of the Church” that is just around the corner.

Hopefully I will have the time to post some of the many prophecies that speak of our difficult days, as well as what has been predicted to come in the very near future. The prophecies of the future give a lot of needed hope to get us through these troubled times.

 

[Abbi]

Baccckkk…
To Goodfella: I’ve been flicking through some threads and tradition is what seems to be the main problem between Protestants and Catholics, or “sola scripture” as I have seen it being called? Anyway, I know there are many divisions between churches that are protostant, my church is not perfect, and neither is anybody else’s, surely? - every church is made up of human beings - and as imperfect beings, earthly churches will contain fault. Can’t wait to get to heaven eh? I havn’t read ‘Roman Catholicism,’ I’ve only been looking around on the net.

To Church Militant: Haha kk I will look into all of this when I find time (I have a calculus test to study for - ahhh!). I have obviously been bought up in a Protestant home, and despite going to a Catholic Highschool, I have never heard any of this. Any time I mentioned any of this kinda stuff my Catholic friends just look at me gobsmacked, with nothing to say at all. I was starting to lose hope for Catholics! It’s good you actually have biblical background to some of your traditions - even if it just depends upon interpretation - (I have heard a lot of it does, but I will decide for myself)

Thanks for everyone’s replies

 

[Abbi]

btw: will someone please tell me, what is “mortal sin”? and “venial sin”? Never heard of it before. I though God sees all types of sin as equal?

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

btw: will someone please tell me, what is “mortal sin”? and “venial sin”? Never heard of it before. I though God sees all types of sin as equal?

The difference between mortal sin and venial sin is a difference in degree. A mortal sin is a “big” sin, such as adultery, or stealing something of considerable value. A venial sin is a slight offence. For example, the person does not commit adultery, but momentarily has a impure thought about a person they are not married to. They do not steal a large amount of money, but make a few personal copies at work when they know it is forbidden.

A venial sin is a slight sin, whereas a mortal sin is willfully doing (or desiring to do) what one know God absolutely forbids

A mortal sin is called “mortal” because it destroys the life of grace in our soul. When a person is born again, they received the “indwelling Holy Spirit”. The indwelling Holy Spirit gives a supernatural life for the soul.

When a person turns from God and chooses serious sin, they loose this indwelling Holy Spirit (grace), which results in spiritual death.

Degrees of sin. Remember what Jesus said to Pontian Pilate about the Jews who delivered Jesus to him? Jesus said “they who have delivered me to thee have the greater sin”. This shows that some sins are greater than others.

In 1st John, he actually discusses mortal (or deadly) sin.

1 John 5:16-17: “He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death [mortal]: for that I say not that any man ask. All iniquity is sin. But there is a sin unto death”.

This specifically addresses deadly, or “mortal” sin. Since the verse says we should not pray for a person who commits this kind of mortal sin, the verse is probably referring to a certain extremely grevious species of mortal sin, such as apostasy from the faith. But regardless of what kind of mortal sin it is referring to, it clearly says that some sins are deadly and others are not.

Thanks for posting this question. Feel free to keep them coming. There are a lot of people here who would be very happy to help you. And don’t forget to pray for God to guide and enlighten you. I will add you to my prayer list. Please do the same for me.

God Bless,

 

[Church_Militant]

Baccckkk…

To Church Militant: Haha kk I will look into all of this when I find time (I have a calculus test to study for - ahhh!). I have obviously been bought up in a Protestant home, and despite going to a Catholic Highschool, I have never heard any of this. Any time I mentioned any of this kinda stuff my Catholic friends just look at me gobsmacked, with nothing to say at all. I was starting to lose hope for Catholics! It’s good you actually have biblical background to some of your traditions - even if it just depends upon interpretation - (I have heard a lot of it does, but I will decide for myself)

Thanks for everyone’s replies

That’s what I mean. Unless one actually does one’s own homework, (no pun intended. Good luck on that Calc test…) even Catholics fail to know what to say in answer to the propaganda fed to n-Cs about the Catholic Church. I did mine and that is why I’m Catholic. Read my testimony here.

Keep in mind that it was anti-Catholic propaganda that the Holy Spirit used to bring me home to the Catholic faith.

If you want to get some seriously good Bible studies on the Catholic faith have a look around The Bible Christian Society website.

 

[Good_Fella]

Abbi, all of our traditions in the Catholic Church have a biblical basis, not merely some.
Our Deposit of Faith is comprised of both Sacred Scriptures and sacred Tradition. God
is the authority behind Sacred Scriptures and the author of the revelations contained
therein. But Jesus conferred authority on his Church to infallibly determine which scriptures
are canon and authentically divine in origin. Meanwhile, Jesus promised Peter and the
Apostles that he would send them the Advocate and Paraclete to guide them in all truth.
This means that our Lord assured his disciples that the Church would never err in her
infallible doctrines and proclamations under the guidance and counsel of his Holy Spirit.
The Pope and the bishops in unity of the magisterium are guided by the Holy Spirit to in-
terpret the scriptures truthfully when referring to the Sacred text in the formulation of doctrines
and promulgations of dogmas.

Catholic dogma on the Holy Trinity, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and
the Marian dogmas are immune to error, immutable, and irrevocable. The ‘charism’
of the infallibilty of the Sacred Magisterium and Ecumenical Councils is also applied
to the Catholic doctrine of infant baptism. All these traditions have a biblical root and are
guaranteed by Jesus to constitute true teachings. Yet there is room for error and revision
in the non-infallible teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church. But the errors
are not so severe as to lead the Church off the path of salvation. Also, there is room for
error in the decisions of the fallible temporal authority of a local bishop and in individual
theological speculation on the part of both laity and clergy, including the pope. For
the pope is infallible in his pronouncements only under these criteria established by
Vatican 1 Council: "The Roman Pontiff "(1) “speaks ‘ex cathedra’ (from the Chair of Peter)…
that is when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians
and by virtue of his apostolic authority…” (2) “he defines” (3) “that a doctrine concerning
faith and morals” (4) “must be held by the entire Church.” These criteria were ratified
by Vatican ll Council but only reworded. For the infallibilty of the pope was solemnly
defined and proclaimed as dogma by Vatican 1. Yet morally and traditionally the infallibilty
of the pope or Bishop of Rome was recognized by the Catholic Church ever since St.Peter,
our first Supreme Pontiff and head of the Apostles, was esteemed by the early
Church to be graced with this privilege conferred by our Lord.

Sacred Scriptures, sacred Tradition, and the Sacred Magisterium comprise the Three Pillars
of the Catholic Church. Because of the Sacred Magisterium, the Catholic Church is “One”
and “Apostolic” in her doctrines and beliefs. The ‘charism’ of papal infallibilty -the power
“to bind and loose” - with or without communion with the bishops did not expire with the deaths
of St. Peter and the twelve Apostles. Nor was this gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church taken by
schismatics when they took leave of the Catholic Church to form their own erroneous and deficient traditions based on their unauthoritative, fallible doctrines.

“When the Advocate comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth
that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me. And you also testify, because you have
been with me from the beginning.I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on
his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you things that are coming.”

[John 15:26-27, 16:12-13]

Good luck in your exam. And why not enrol in a Catholic Catechism course
at your Catholic High School to learn more about us?

Peace be with you.

 

[Ignatius]

Abbi,
You’re dead wrong on most all that you offer in this part of your post.
**Abbi:

As I understand it, it was illegal to be a christian until Constantine.[/I]

Correct though. The Edict of Tolerance (Or Edict of Milan).

Abbi:

Besides, even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus, or His apostles.

I’m sorry Abbi, but this is errant hooey.

Abbi:

In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy,

Actually there is.

Abbi:

worship / adoration of Mary

Catholics do not now, have not ever, and will not ever worship the Blessed Virgin. Like I said you are dead wrong.
.
.
.

Abbi:

petitioning saints in Heaven for their prayers,

Again you are dead wrong about this. Listen to this MP3 Bible study called The Communion of Saints.

Abbi:

apostolic succession,

Really? Better look again…Acts 1:12-26

Abbi:

the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments,

There are no “ordinances”, only sacraments and you’d know that if you studied the Word of God. I Find No Sacraments In the Bible" he said.

Abbi:

infant baptism,

Really? so there were no babies in any of the “whole households” that are mentioned as converting in the New Testament? And St. Polycarp is lying when he tells the proconsul that sentences him to die for the faith that he has been a Christian for 86 years when he was 86 at the time. (See chapter IX)

Abbi:

confession of sin to a priest,

Again you’re wrong. John 20:21-23, 1st John 1:9, James 5:14-16.

Abbi:

purgatory,

Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

Abbi:

indulgences,

Goes along with John 20:21-23, but is especially tied to Matthew 16:18-19 concerning binding and loosing.

Abbi:

or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture.

That’s odd. The Word of God says, “14: I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, 15: if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” (1st Timothy 3. emphasis mine) Notice that it does not say that the Bible is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth”, Nor does St. Paul tell St. Timothy that he is to study the Bible to show himself approved unto God, rightly handling the word of truth. 2nd Timothy 2:15 (Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth).

Abbi:

I don’t mean to offend anyone, but that is the way I see it

I don’t mean to offend you either, but you are so wrong that you need to check out the facts that what you have been taught is not in line with the Word of God nor the historically verifiable teachings of the early church.

I nominate your post for best response of the Year. Great exposition of the Truth CM.

 

[Riley259]

The corrolary to that is “Do you have to be Christian to be saved?” This statement from the catechism (paragraph 161)seems to suggest that you do:

*Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’"43 *

However, the documents of Vatican II do not necessarily say that. Which is right?

 

[nerfherder]

nerfherder - I didn’t reply to your post because I didn’t know HOW to reply. I have made a personal decision to be a christian - I did 3 years ago, when I was baptised. I do intend to look into other religions, however more as in discovering why I am a christian - not a muslim or jew etc. Other religions are interesting, but personally I think God is big enough for everyone and anyone - I think they would find truth and love in Jesus, rather than Allah etc. Or do you believe they’re all one God? - that there are different sides to him etc? Grace, informed conscience, the scriptures and their history, the nature, personality, mission and suffering of Christ as well as his resurrection and ascension - yes I know! and much much more , its sure to be exciting.

Hi Abbi! I am not sure whether your original question has been answered.

To complete my suggestion that you continue to be open-minded about all this, and that you search fairly broadly, I do think you need to look at faith generally, and then choose what you believe. Look at Judaism, Buddhism etc? Why. Well if you were offered a box of chocolates, how would you know which one was the best unless you tasted the others as well? Or at least looked at the pictures on the box to guide you to a choice. Besides, looking broadens your outlook and may, perhaps, lead you to the assumption that there is truly one divinity, who embraces all of his children.

Love Carol

 

[nerfherder]

The corrolary to that is “Do you have to be Christian to be saved?” This statement from the catechism (paragraph 161)seems to suggest that you do:

*Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’"43 *

However, the documents of Vatican II do not necessarily say that. Which is right?

In the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, paragraph 16, the Vatican II Council Fathers wrote: "Those who have not yet received the gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.

There is, first, that people to which the covenants and promises were made, and from which Christ was born according to the flesh (cf. Romans 9:4-5): In view of the divine choice, they are a people most dear for the sake of the fathers, for the gifts of God are without repentance (cf. Romans 11:28-29).

"But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: These profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.

"Nor is God remote from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, since he gives to all men life and breath and all things (cf. Acts 17:25-28), and since the Saviour wills all men to be saved (cf. 1 Timothy 2:4).

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through dictates of their conscience—those too, may achieve eternal salvation.

“Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life.”

So the Fathers of the Council do not exclude anyone acting in good faith from the possibility of salvation.

 

[Cat]

Just a note: Loraine Boettner is a man, not a woman.

 

[Abbi]

hey Ignatius!
Im having a look at these Bible verses, as well as what Protestants say about them - seeing as im trying to figure out the truth I thought I should look at the opposing view as well. Sooo here we go. This could get long…

apostolic succession: "Catholics point to Matthias being chosen to replace Judas as the 12th apostle in Acts chapter 1 as an example of apostolic succession. While Matthias did indeed “suceed” Judas as an apostle, this is in no sense an argument for continuing apostolic succession. Matthias being chosen to replace Judas is only an argument for the church replacing ungodly and unfaithful leaders (such as Judas), with godly and faithful leaders (such as Matthias). Nowhere in the New Testament are any of the twelve apostles recorded as passing on their apostolic authority to successors. Nowhere do any of the apostles predict that they will pass on their apostolic authority. No, Jesus ordained the apostles to build the foundation of the church (Ephesians 2:20). What is the foundation of the church that the apostles built? The New Testament – the record of the deeds and teachings of the apostles. The church does not need apostolic successors. The church needs the teachings of the apostles accurately recorded and preserved. And that is exactly what God has provided in His Word (Ephesians 1:13; Colossians 1:5; 2 Timothy 2:15; 4:2).

In short, apostolic succession is not biblical. The concept of apostolic succession is never found in Scripture. What is found in Scripture is that the true church will teach what the Scriptures teach and will compare all doctrines and practices to Scripture in order to determine what is true and right. The Roman Catholic Church claims that a lack of ongoing apostolic authority results in doctrinal confusion and chaos. It is an unfortunate truth (that the apostles acknowledged) that false teachers would arise (2 Peter 2:1). Admittedly, the lack of “supreme authority” amongst non-Catholic churches results in many different interpretations. However, these differences in interpretation are not the result of Scripture being unclear. Rather, they are the result of even non-Catholic Christians carrying on the Catholic tradition of interpreting Scripture in accordance with their own traditions. If Scripture is studied in its entirety and in its proper context, the truth can be easily determined. Doctrinal differences and denominational conflicts are a result of some Christians refusing to agree with what Scripture says – not a result of there being no “supreme authority” to interpret Scripture.

Alignment with Scriptural teaching, not apostolic succession, is the determining factor of the trueness of a church. What is mentioned in Scripture is the idea that the Word of God was to be the guide that the church was to follow (Acts 20:32). It is Scripture that was to be the infallible measuring stick for teaching and practice (2 Timothy 3:16-17). It is the Scriptures that teachings are to be compared with (Acts 17:10-12). Apostolic authority was passed on through the writings of the apostles, not through apostolic succession."

What would you say to that?

Also, I have never understood infant baptism. Why would you baptise a baby, unable of making its own decision yet? Why not wait until they have grown up, so he/she can decide for themselves - making baptism a personal decison, and an incredibly powerful statement of faith? I’m sure St Polycarp isn’t lying - but I would consider the moment when someone becomes a christian to be when they’ve accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. As for families in the New Testament, does it specifically mention any babies being baptized? Perhaps by “convert” it just meant the adults were baptised and the younger children would be bought up according to Jesus’ teachings?

Oh, do you have a reference for where the papacy is mentioned?

Confessing to priests: The Roman Catholic Church bases their practice of confession to a priest primarily on Catholic tradition. Catholic do point to John 20:23, “If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." From this verse, Catholics claim that God gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins, and that authority was passed on to the successors of the apostles, e.g. the bishops and priests of the Roman Catholic Church. There are several problems with this interpretation. (1) John 20:23 nowhere mentions confession of sin. (2) John 20:23 nowhere promises, or even hints, that the authority to forgive sins would be passed on to the successors of the apostles. Jesus’ promise was specifically directed to the apostles. (3) The New Testament nowhere states that the apostles would even have successors to their apostolic authority. Similarly, Catholics point to Matthew 16:19 and 18:18 (binding and loosing) as evidence for the Catholic Church’s authority to forgive sins. The same three above points apply equally to these Scriptures.

 

[Abbi]

confession continued:
Again, the concept of confession of sin to a priest is nowhere taught in Scripture. We are to confess our sins to God (1 John 1:9). As New Covenant believers, we do not need mediators between us and God. We can go to God directly because of Jesus’ sacrifice for us. 1 Timothy 2:5, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”

Why exactly would you want to confess to a priest, a man, rather than God? That confuses me.

Purgatory: “If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.” The passage (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) is using an illustration of things going through fire as a description of believers’ works being judged. If our works are of good quality “gold, sliver, costly stones,” they will pass through the fire unharmed, and we will be rewarded for them. If our works are of poor quality “wood, hay, and straw,” they will be consumed by the fire, and there will be no reward. The passage does not say that believers pass through the fire, but rather that a believer’s works pass through the fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer “escaping through the flames,” not “being cleansed by the flames."

alsourgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus’ once for all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for Heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.

The very idea of Purgatory, and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) all fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1,14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin, or sins committed before salvation, is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must in any sense pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins – that indicates Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.

hmm?

Would someone mind explaining to me what Indulgences and Penance are? and the Seven Sacraments?

Tradition and Scripture: “These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:14-15). The phrase “pillar and ground of truth” does not indicate that the church is the creator of truth, or that it can originate tradition to supplement Scripture. The church being the “pillar and ground of the truth” simply means that the church is the proclaimer and defender of the truth. The New Testament praises churches for proclaiming the truth, “for from you the word of the Lord has been spread abroad” (1 Thessalonians 1:8). The New Testament commends early Christians for defending the truth, “partakers with me…in the defense and confirmation of the gospel” (Philippians 1:7). There is not a single verse in all of Scriptures which indicates that the church has the authority to develop new truth, or to decree new truth as being from the mouth of God.

 

[Abbi]

Now that is a lot of stuff… feel free to take your time. But i spose, itll just be the general protestant stuff?

To Goodfella: I’m sure ull have fun looking through the above… and I don’t think we have a Catholic Catechism course! We are studying the Catholic World view in Religious Education, but that is about it I’m afraid

Pax et Caritas: Thankyou! I just have a question concerning this. You say that mortal sin cuts off salvation? So would God not be lying saying “I have granted you eternal life,” and then turning around and saying “sorry, your life is no longer eternal”? And the Bible teaches that looking upon a woman lustfully is considered adultury, so does that mean that lust is also a mortal sin? Gees… those men are in trouble all right.

You seem to maintain belief that you must be Catholic for salvation (unless ignorant). So how do you relate to this?- taken from the Catholic Catechism: “In subsequent centuries much more serious dissentions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church. . . . One cannot charge with sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church. . . . Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities [found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church] as means of salvation.”(Catechism, p. 216, sects. 817, 818, 819)

just wondering.
haha thanks to anyone who has bothered to read

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Pax et Caritas: Thankyou! I just have a question concerning this. You say that mortal sin cuts off salvation? So would God not be lying saying “I have granted you eternal life,” and then turning around and saying “sorry, your life is no longer eternal”? And the Bible teaches that looking upon a woman lustfully is considered adultury, so does that mean that lust is also a mortal sin? Gees… those men are in trouble all right.

To answer your last questin first: Yes, lust is a mortal sin. If it is momentary without really thinking about it, it would not be mortal. But willfully lusting after another women is certainly a mortal sin. Like Jesus said, it is commiting adultery with the heart.

Regarding eternal life. The phrase “eternal life” does not mean “eternal security”. It often refers to the state of grace, whereby we receive the Life of God (eternal life) into our souls. When we have the indwelling life of God within us, we have “eternal life” since the life of God IS eternal life.

Sometimes the word “eternal life” refers to heaven, but other times it refers to the indwelling Holy Ghost. In 1st John 3:5 the apostle explains that “eternal life” is something that is within us. He said “you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding within him”.

In this sense eternal life is referring to, what is commonly called, the state of grace. It refers to the indwelling Holy Spirit, which gives a supernatural life to our souls, and makes us “a partaker in the Divine Nature”, as Peter said.

You seem to maintain belief that you must be Catholic for salvation (unless ignorant). So how do you relate to this?- taken from the Catholic Catechism: "In subsequent centuries much more serious dissentions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church. . . . One cannot charge with sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church. . . .

In order to be justified by baptism, an adult must have the Catholic faith. If a Protestant believes in the two necessary doctrines of the Trinity and Incarnation, and does not knowlingly reject any Catholic dogmas, he would have what is required to be justified through baptism. Thus, his baptism would incorporate him into the mystical body of Christ. However, if he later rejected dogmas of the faith and fell into heresy, he would be cut off from the Church.

Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities [found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church] as means of salvation."(Catechism, p. 216, sects. 817, 818, 819)

The way this would be true is when a church that was not in union with Rome, but did retained the Catholic sacraments, gave these sacraments to individuals and thereby communicated the state of grace to their souls. If one of these recipients of the Catholic sacraments given by the non-Catholc died with grace in their soul they would be saved. It would be in this way that God used the non-Catholic church. He would, in a sense, us it in spite of itself.

You asked some other questions as well. I’m sure people will give you some thorough answers. I will just give you a brief reply…

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