Do you have to believe Marian dogma to be a good Catholic?

[eddadonkey]

Absolutely I call her blessed, because God calls her blessed.

The difference between our views is that I see her as being blessed in a different context then you probably do.

God declares Mary “Blessed among women” (Luke 1:42), not blessed above women.

Oh, are you saying we hold the Blessed Virgin as someone who is above women, and thus above humans?

So was Eve, before the Fall, above women? She was not human before Original Sin?

 

[Arizona_Samson]

When you have the time will you kindly directly me to these Scriptures please?

Mods please accept my apologies if asking this question in here is veering this discussion off topic. As a newbie here that is the last thing I wish to do, so if there is a more appropriate thread for discussing praying to the saints and Mary I’d appreciate a nudge in the right direction.

Thanks and God bless.

 

[PRmerger]

Greetings AMB!

Where in God’s infallible word does He instruct us to pray to the “blessed mother” or any other deceased person?

First, welcome to the forums, Samson.

Now, as far as quoting you a verse in God’s infallible word supporting our belief in praying to Mary, you’ll have to first provide a verse in Scripture that says we must support all of our beliefs by Scripture.

 

[PRmerger]

Yet we find absolutely nothing about an immaculate conception or assumption of Mary in the “Faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.” Jude 3

That’s not quite true, Samson. I refer you to these sites that discuss the Scriptural references to the IC and Mary’s Assumption.

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#tradition-II
scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#tradition-IV

We know the Apostles didn’t proclaim any of the Marian dogmas since they are not found in their writings, simply because these 'developments" didn’t come about until centuries after the last of the Apostles had died.

You are begging the question here, Samson.

Firstly, you assume that because you say it wasn’t written in their writings, it wasn’t proclaimed. And you say that it wasn’t proclaimed because it wasn’t in their writings.

Circular.

Firstly, you have to provide a verse that says that all of the Apostles’ teachings were confined to the Sacred Scriptures.

 

[PRmerger]

When you have the time will you kindly directly me to these Scriptures please?

We are One Family in Christ in Heaven and on Earth

Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.

1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.

Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.

Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.

John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.

1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.

1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.

1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!

Heb. 12:1: we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses. The “cloud of witnesses” refers to the saints who are not only watching us from above but cheering us on in our race to heaven.

1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 - we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.

2 Peter 1:4 - since God is the eternal family and we are His children, we are partakers of His divine nature as a united family.

1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 - we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:

Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called “saints.”

Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that “saints” also refer to those in heaven who united with us.

Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

The Bible is the written part of Sacred Tradition.

For the first 400 years* of Christian history there was no Bible. There was only the kerygma–which was the oral teaching of the Apostles handed down under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

*incidentally, 400 years without a Bible is a LONG time. Think about that. Imagine going from the time that the Pilgrims arrived at Plymouth Rock to current day, without a Constitution or written “rule”.

400 years without a Bible, yet the teachings of the Apostles survived–how? Via Sacred Tradition. Part of this teaching was written down–Sacred Scripture, and part continued to be orally transmitted–Sacred Tradition.

400 years is a long time. I’m comforted by the fact that the Bible was written toward the beginning of the 400 and not toward the end of it!

You aren’t telling me that the great institution of the Catholic Church is relying partly on 2,000 year old oral traditions that have never been written down, are you? PLEEEASE don’t tell me that! Oh, my God!

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Hi again!

I’m a cradle Catholic who has fallen truly in love with the Faith and the Object of that Faith.

That’s great!

So just call me Jesus’ little burro

OK, Jesus’ little burro. I don’t have any opinion about which books should be in the Bible. In fact, I try not to have any opinions at all but just say what God has revealed to me.

Love back to you!

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

To ease my guilt from participating in a stray from the topic, let me ask, “Where does the Marian dogma come from?”

 

[eddadonkey]

That’s great!

OK, Jesus’ little burro. I don’t have any opinion about which books should be in the Bible. In fact, I try not to have any opinions at all but just say what God has revealed to me.

Love back to you!

To ease my guilt from participating in a stray from the topic, let me ask, “Where does the Marian dogma come from?”

God through the Holy Scriptures and Holy Tradition, of course.

You should have read, like I suggested, the first two chapters of both Genesis and the Gospel of John, or you wouldn’t ask this. Then when you had done that I would have pointed you to the Book of Revelation. But it’s ok, there’s an awesome video about that here: The Truth About Mary and Scripture.

Double God love ya back!

 

[PRmerger]

You aren’t telling me that the great institution of the Catholic Church is relying partly on 2,000 year old oral traditions that have never been written down, are you? PLEEEASE don’t tell me that! Oh, my God!

Why must it be written down? Where does this tradition (“All we believe must be written!”) that you seem to base* everything* on–which is so clearly part of your paradigm–come from?

If it is such an integral, fundamental, basic part of your theology, where is the verse in Scripture that limns this?

Tradition is not fully written down because it is the lens through which we understand the deposit of faith, given once for all to the saints. One cannot write down a lens through which we view the Sacred Scriptures.

 

[PRmerger]

To ease my guilt from participating in a stray from the topic, let me ask, “Where does the Marian dogma come from?”

It comes from the One Faith, given once for all to the saints.

Marian teachings have been part of the Deposit of Faith from the earliest days of the Apostles. They can be found, implicitly, the the NT (and, actually, prefaced in the OT), and taught by the ECFs and continuing through the entirety of Christian history.

 

[PRmerger]

Hi again!

I’m a cradle Catholic who has fallen truly in love with the Faith and the Object of that Faith.

I have taken as my patrons the Holy Family: Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. And I have taken as my vow in life St. Josemaria Escriva’s theology of the donkey:

My child, my little donkey: if the Lord, with Love, has washed your grimy back, so accustomed to the muck, and has laid a satin harness on you, and covered you with dazzling jewels, don’t forget, poor donkey, that with your faults you could throw that beautiful load on to the ground… But on your own you couldn’t put it back on again. Forge, 330

Would that you could acquire, as I know you would like to, the virtues of the donkey! Donkeys are humble, hard-working, persevering — stubborn! — and faithful, with a sure step, tough and — if they have a good master — also grateful and obedient. The Forge, 380

Continue thinking about the donkey’s good qualities and notice how in order to do anything worth while, it has to allow itself to be ruled by the will of whoever is leading it… On its own the donkey would only… make an a*s of itself. Probably the brightest thing that would occur to it to do would be to roll over on the ground, trot to the manger and start braying.

“Dear Jesus”, you too should say to him, “ut iumentum factus sum apud te! — you have made me be your little donkey. Please don’t leave me: et ego semper tecum! — and I will stay with you always. Lead me, tightly harnessed by your grace: Tenuisti manum dexteram meam… — you have led me by the halter; et in voluntate tua deduxisti me… — make me do your Will. And so I will love you for ever and ever — et cum gloria suscepisti me!” The Forge, 381

So just call me Jesus’ little burro

How beautiful, edda!

Just wanted to let you know that I shared the above theology on another thread.

 

[PRmerger]

Oh, p-shaw! shaw:

 

[jimcook87]

We are One Family in Christ in Heaven and on Earth

Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.

<>

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

Great job with the references demonstrating we are all one family, alive in the body of Christ; that Christ’s resurrection and conquering of death has a real effect and is more than just words.

Going along with the realization that the saints in Heaven and believers on Earth are all part of the living Body of Christ is the scriptural evidence that we are encouraged to pray for other members of the Body of Christ as well as ask them to pray for us. To that end:

James 5:16-18
1 Timothy 2:1–4
Romans 15:30-32
Ephesians 6:18-20
Colossians 4:3
1 Thessalonians 5:25
2 Thessalonians 3:1
Matthew 5:44

And when a believer made a request on behalf of another Jesus answered those petitions:

Matthew 8:13
Matthew 15:28
Matthew 17:15-18
Mark 9:17-29
Luke 8:49–55

And of course, we are provided with examples encouraging us to pray to those in Heaven:

Psalm 103:20-21
Psalm 148:11-14

And we’re told that the angels and saints deliver our prayers to God:

Revelation 5:8
Revelation 8:3-4

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

God through the Holy Scriptures and Holy Tradition, of course.

You should have read, like I suggested, the first two chapters of both Genesis and the Gospel of John, or you wouldn’t ask this. Then when you had done that I would have pointed you to the Book of Revelation. But it’s ok, there’s an awesome video about that here: The Truth About Mary and Scripture.

Double God love ya back!

Wow, that’s quite a video. It has a lot in it.

If loving Mary causes you to love the Father & Jesus more, I’m all for it!

Of course, Protestants love & respect Mary, too. We just don’t go quite so far.

I’ve heard it said that the ark represents the throne of God, another minister said it represents Jesus, and the video says it’s Mary. I don’t know who’s right. Maybe they all are.

I’ll be busy for at least the next 5 days so I don’t expect to blog.

Thanks, edda. God’s grace to you!

 

[PRmerger]

I’ve heard it said that the ark represents the throne of God, another minister said it represents Jesus, and the video says it’s Mary. I don’t know who’s right. Maybe they all are.

This brings up an interesting point. When there are disagreements about what a particular verse in Scripture means, how do Christians reconcile this? Are they left to the chaos and confusion of each person saying, “No, it means this!” “No, it means that!”

Did Jesus really leave us an infallible Bible with no one to infallibly interpret it?

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Why must it be written down? Where does this tradition (“All we believe must be written!”) that you seem to base* everything* on–which is so clearly part of your paradigm–come from?

If it is such an integral, fundamental, basic part of your theology, where is the verse in Scripture that limns this?

I might point out that when the devil tempted Jesus, Jesus responded with, “It is written . . .,” but that would not be a fully convincing point, I don’t think.

I think of the illustration a teacher asked us kids to act out one time. She whispered something into one kids’ ears and told the kid to whisper what she said into the next kids ears and so on down a whole row of kids. What the last kid said was comically different than what the teacher originally said. (Actually, I think of that sometimes when I think of gossip.)

 

[PRmerger]

I might point out that when the devil tempted Jesus, Jesus responded with, “It is written . . .,” but that would not be a fully convincing point, I don’t think.

No, friend, not very convincing at all. :nope:

I think of the illustration a teacher asked us kids to act out one time. She whispered something into one kids’ ears and told the kid to whisper what she said into the next kids ears and so on down a whole row of kids. What the last kid said was comically different than what the teacher originally said. (Actually, I think of that sometimes when I think of gossip.)

But what if each and every child was assisted by The Master, whispering the correct message in his ear? And each and every child was prevented from proclaiming the wrong message, no matter how naughty or deaf or clueless he was?

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

This brings up an interesting point. When there are disagreements about what a particular verse in Scripture means, how do Christians reconcile this? Are they left to the chaos and confusion of each person saying, “No, it means this!” “No, it means that!”

Did Jesus really leave us an infallible Bible with no one to infallibly interpret it?

I believe he gave us the Holy Spirit to clean up such confusion. Jesus said to his disciples that it was better for them if he go away so that he can send the Holy Spirit (paraphrase).
If we don’t take the time to get intimate with the Lord so that we can sense his leading, we will be deceived one way or another—the devil will see to it! There is no short cut.
And really, the “long” road is far more fun!

“See you” later.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

But what if each and every child was assisted by The Master, whispering the correct message in his ear? And each and every child was prevented from proclaiming the wrong message, no matter how naughty or deaf or clueless he was?

I think we’ve been here before, but are you a Calvinist? My name may be Calvin but I’m not a Calvinist, although he was a great man of God—John Calvin, not me!