Do you have to believe Marian dogma to be a good Catholic?

[wheels10]

I’m glad to know that one can be a faithful Catholic and not be persuaded that the Church’s teaching on Mary is true.

What does the teaching on Mary include aside from her being the mother of God and a faithful woman of God?
You believe we can (& should?) pray to Mary? Is there any Scriptural support for this?

Thanks! Love to all.

Mary Loves God perfectly. Any Love that She receives is sent directly to God. Mary has such a great Love for God that as a result it is impossible for Her to ask anything from God that is not Good and Holy. God has such a great Love for Mary that it is impossible for Him to refuse any of Her requests.

If one also wishes to Love God perfectly, there is no better way to Love God than through Mary.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Mary Loves God perfectly. Any Love that She receives is sent directly to God. Mary has such a great Love for God that as a result it is impossible for Her to ask anything from God that is not Good and Holy. God has such a great Love for Mary that it is impossible for Him to refuse any of Her requests.

If one also wishes to Love God perfectly, there is no better way to Love God than through Mary.

Hi Wheels10!

Thanks for your response.
As you can tell, I’m not very familiar with the beliefs that make Catholicism unique. Maybe it’s about time I learned! Of course I have heard bits & pieces of these teachings through “the grapevine” but I don’t trust bits & pieces for overall accuracy.

What you said about Mary having a perfect love for God and therefore receiving everything she requests because she never requests amiss makes sense. It makes me think of 1 John 3:21-22 (NIV):

“Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him.”

Is what you said of Mary true of all Christians who have gone on to heaven? If not, why not?

How does going through Mary compare to going through Christ?

Thanks! (Anyone can answer.)

 

[PRmerger]

How does going through Mary compare to going through Christ?

Picture how the Apostles interacted with Mary. I think that the movie “The Passion of the Christ” depicted a realistic model of how to interact with her. They gave her reverence, just as Jesus did.

 

[wheels10]

Hi Wheels10!

Thanks for your response.
As you can tell, I’m not very familiar with the beliefs that make Catholicism unique. Maybe it’s about time I learned! Of course I have heard bits & pieces of these teachings through “the grapevine” but I don’t trust bits & pieces for overall accuracy.

What you said about Mary having a perfect love for God and therefore receiving everything she requests because she never requests amiss makes sense. It makes me think of 1 John 3:21-22 (NIV):

“Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him.”

Is what you said of Mary true of all Christians who have gone on to heaven? If not, why not?

I would have to answer yes to your question above. Mary is the Mother of Christ. Mary is also the Spiritual Mother of all Christians. Is it possible to Love Jesus without also Loving the person that cooperated with God so that He could be brought into this world? God in His infinite wisdom decided to bring Jesus into this world through Mary. God also wants us to come to Him through Mary.

How does going through Mary compare to going through Christ?

Thanks! (Anyone can answer.)

Christ is God. If you want a perfect prayer to be delivered to God, ask Our Blessed Mother Mary, The Mother of God to pray to God for you.

“The more the Holy Ghost finds Mary, His
dear and insperable spouse, in any soul, the
more active and mighty He becomes in producing
Jesus Christ in that soul, and that soul in
Jesus Christ”

-St. Louis De Montfort

 

[Linda_Marie]

Hi Wheels10!

Thanks for your response.
As you can tell, I’m not very familiar with the beliefs that make Catholicism unique. Maybe it’s about time I learned! Of course I have heard bits & pieces of these teachings through “the grapevine” but I don’t trust bits & pieces for overall accuracy.

What you said about Mary having a perfect love for God and therefore receiving everything she requests because she never requests amiss makes sense. It makes me think of 1 John 3:21-22 (NIV):

“Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him.”

Is what you said of Mary true of all Christians who have gone on to heaven? If not, why not?

How does going through Mary compare to going through Christ?

Thanks! (Anyone can answer.)

Mary was Assumed body and soul into heaven. Other Christians who have attained heaven are not yet united with their bodies. Only their souls are in heaven.

[APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION OF
POPE PIUS XII

MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS

DEFINING THE DOGMA OF THE ASSUMPTION

November 1, 1950](http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/p...i_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html)
4. That privilege has shone forth in new radiance since our predecessor of immortal memory, Pius IX, solemnly proclaimed the dogma of the loving Mother of God’s Immaculate Conception. These two privileges are most closely bound to one another. Christ overcame sin and death by his own death, and one who through Baptism has been born again in a supernatural way has conquered sin and death through the same Christ. Yet, according to the general rule, God does not will to grant to the just the full effect of the victory over death until the end of time has come. And so it is that the bodies of even the just are corrupted after death, and only on the last day will they be joined, each to its own glorious soul.

1. Now God has willed that the Blessed Virgin Mary should be exempted from this general rule. She, by an entirely unique privilege, completely overcame sin by her Immaculate Conception, and as a result she was not subject to the law of remaining in the corruption of the grave, and she did not have to wait until the end of time for the redemption of her body.

We go through Mary to Christ. It is not ‘instead of’ going through Christ. Just as we ask other Christians to pray for us, to intercede for us, we ask Mary, in her special and unique position as His mother to intercede for us. God honours His mother and grants her requests, just as He did with His first miracle when He turned water into wine.
The Influence of Mary, Mediatrix

As has been said, there is nothing to prevent there being mediators below Christ, subordinated to Him as secondary mediators, such as were the prophets and priests of the Old Law for the chosen people. It may thus be asked whether Mary is the universal mediatrix for all men and for the distribution of all graces in general and in particular. St. Albert the Great speaks of the mediation of Mary as superior to that of the prophets when he says: “Mary was chosen by the Lord, not as a minister but to be associated in a very special and quite intimate manner in the work of the redemption of the human race: ‘Faciamus ei adjutorium simile sibi.’” [6]

Mary, as mother of the Davidic King Jesus, is the Queen Mother.

The Gebirah, the Queen Mother of the Kingdom of Judah, was an official position held by the mother of the Davidic kings. She was the most important and influential woman in the royal court and the king’s chief councilor. The Hebrew word gebirah is found 15 times in the Old Testament and can be translated as “Queen Mother,” or “Great Lady” [Genesis 16:4, 8, 9, 1 Kings 11:19 (used for the Egyptian Queen Mother); 15:13; 2 Kings 5:3; 10:13; 2 Chronicles 15:16; Psalm 123:2; Proverbs 30:23; Isaiah 24:2; 47:5, 7; Jeremiah 13:18; 29:2]. In Sacred Scripture the mother of the Davidic king is listed along with her son in the books of 1 & 2 Kings and 1 & 2 Chronicles when he assumes the throne. The only queen mother not listed are those of King Jehoram, who married wicked Athaliah, daughter of Ahab and Jezebel of Israel [2 Kings 8:17-18]; King Ahaz [2 Kings 16:2-3]; and King Asa [1 Kings 15:10]. In the case of Jehoram and Ahaz, their mothers may have died prior to their sons assuming the throne of David, and in the case of Asa, his grandmother is named as the Gebirah, his mother having died or perhaps his grandmother, the former Gebirah, did not relinquish her power and authority upon the succession of her grandson. Scripture indicates that the Gebirah assumed a throne alongside her son [see 1 Kings 2:19] and exercised her role as counselor [2 Chronicles 22:3] and intercessor to the king [1 Kings 2:13-21]. In times of conquest, both the king and his mother represented royal power [2 Kings 24:12]. The Gebirah was clearly the most important woman in the Kingdom of Judah; a king had many wives, but only one mother. The Gebirah of the eternal Davidic Kingdom of Jesus Christ is Mary of Nazareth. She appears in this role in Revelation 12:1.

 

[catharina]

I am a Protestant making a transition into the Catholic Church, and well I can’t get past Mary. I have listened to a lot of arguments made in defence of the CC teaching on Mary, and I am still not convinced.

If Mary was born sinless, that would not make her human, for the very definition of human is a flawed creature by the Biblical standard. So she would have to be like a goddess or something. I was told that Jesus could not have been inside a sinful woman, yet when we partake of the Hold Sacrament, Jesus ends up inside us, His literal Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. Yet we are sinners. Then there is the whole “Mary full of grace” thing, that if she is full of grace therefore she is with out sin. But why is “full of grace” not in the Protestant Bible?

As for her remaining a virgin for the rest of her life, it seems to contradict the Bible, well my Protestant Bible anyways. In, Matthew 1:24-25, it says " Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not KNOW her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus." I don’t know what the Catholic version says so, if you could help me out, that would be great.

Then finally the assumption into heaven body and soul. I think if such a miracle had happend, you would at least have seen it in the Bible, and the very early Church fathers would have mentioned it. Other than that, I do believe she intercedes for us just like all the other Saints. I mean I don’t mean to argue with the church, for I respect Her and the Pope, but I want to go into Catholicism knowing that what I believe is the truth, and I don’t want to lie to myself, or to you, or to God. So could you, I guess, convince me about Mary, and if not, is it still be possible to be a good Catholic without believing in the Churches teaching in Mary? Also, please pray for me. I am not just saying it, I really truly need prayer. This is a hard transition for me, leaving my Protestant roots and coming to the HCC. Pray for me. Thank you for your answers in advance, and may God richly Bless you all.

I’m sure others will respond to the specific objections you have raised, but I will answer your central question.

Yes, it is quite possible to be a good and faithful Catholic and not be persuaded that the Church’s teaching on Mary is true.

We can’t force ourselves to believe something. I shared some of your same doubts about the Church’s Marian teaching when I converted.

To be “faithful,” you must be open to the possibility that the teaching really is true but that you are simply not understanding it properly. You are also free to question why it is true, but not to claim that it is untrue (ie, you can’t be a faithful Catholic and say, “the Church is wrong about this”).

Jumping into this thread so I might be mentioning what has been already mentioned.

1. The Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed define truths about Mary.
2. Also, only two doctrines have been declared infallibly. Both concern Mary.

Mary was conceived without original sin (Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception).
Mary was assumed into heaven, body and soul (Doctrine of the Assumption).

To be a Catholic at all, one MUST accept all of these teachings.
One can NOT become a Catholic -“except for the Mary things.”

 

[steve_b]

I’m sure others will respond to the specific objections you have raised, but I will answer your central question.

Yes, it is quite possible to be a good and faithful Catholic and not be persuaded that the Church’s teaching on Mary is true.

We can’t force ourselves to believe something. I shared some of your same doubts about the Church’s Marian teaching when I converted.

To be “faithful,” you must be open to the possibility that the teaching really is true but that you are simply not understanding it properly. You are also free to question why it is true, but not to claim that it is untrue (ie, you can’t be a faithful Catholic and say, "the Church is wrong about this").

ergo Catholics must believe in doctrines and dogmas the Church teaches.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Someone said, “Mary is also the Spiritual Mother of all Christians.”

I understand how Mary is our spiritual mother—like Abraham is our spiritual Father because we have the faith he had.

You asked, “Is it possible to Love Jesus without also Loving the person that cooperated with God so that He could be brought into this world?”

Probably not.

“God in His infinite wisdom decided to bring Jesus into this world through Mary. God also wants us to come to Him through Mary.”

What are the disadvantages of going straight to Jesus? Is it just that you will not have the benefit of her prayers for you?

Incidentally, my wife and I read a book about regular appearances of Mary in the area of Bosnia. For all I know, they may still be occurring. The children that had the privilege of seeing her had a lot of the fruit of the Spirit in their lives. If I remember correctly, they often carried on a lengthy conversation with her. Have you heard of that?

The thought of Mary already having a body in heaven is also new to me. Could be! . . . So *that’s * what the Assumption is. Now I know!

Thanks. Have a nice day in our Lord.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Cathorina said, "To be a Catholic at all, one MUST accept all of these teachings.
One can NOT become a Catholic -“except for the Mary things.”

That disagrees with what someone else had said earlier.

 

[TimothyH]

It’s really quite simple. I don’t know why anyone has issues with the Church’s teaching on Mary.

Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is God so Mary is the Mother of God. It’s not that Mary existed prior to God, but that Mary existed before God was born. God existed before Mary but Mary gave birth to God in human form. Mary is the Mother of God - Emmanual - God is with us.

Since Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ, and since Christ was born with a body, and his body is the Church, then Mary, as the mother of Christ - all of Christ, not just his head but his whole body - must be the Mother of the Church.

And since we are members if Christs body, as the Mother of Christ, Mary is our mother as well. The Bible tells us this EXPLICITLY when it tells us about the woman (Mary) who gave birth to a male child (Jesus), desined to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus. (Revelation 12:17)

Those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus are Mary’s offspring. That’s what it says, right there in the Bible for anyone to read! The same book of Revelation tells us that Mary is the queen of heaven. Remember that the Bible was written without chapter and verse divisions. Chapter and verse divisions were added later during the middle ages.

Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm. A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. (Revelation 11:19,12:1-2)

Mary is the Ark of the New Covenent - the Theotokos - the God Bearer - and just like the Ark of the Old Covenant, she could be seen by the author of Revelation in God’s temple in heaven, with a crown on her head.

And since Christ himself said, “I am the way and the truth and the life”, Mary as his mother, is the mother of truth. She is the mother of life. Christ is grace incarnate and Mary is his mother - the Mother of Grace. She is the means by which love, grace, truth, life, and light all came into the world. Grace himself - Jesus Christ - came into the world through Mary and that is how grace comes to us, through Mary, because Mary is still Christ’s mother.

I don’t know what the big deal is about belief in Marian doctrines or the argument about dogma vs doctrine and what we are required to believe or what we are being forced to believe. It’s all very logical. You go to Jesus through Mary because Jesus came to us that way. Its how God designed things. No one goes directly to the President of the United States unless they are the VP or a member of his cabinet. No one goes directly to the dentist - you gotta talk to the receptionist and the nurse walks you back to the chair.

What’s the big deal? We do it every day.

-Tim-

 

[catharina]

Cathorina said, "To be a Catholic at all, one MUST accept all of these teachings.
One can NOT become a Catholic -“except for the Mary things.”

That disagrees with what someone else had said earlier.

I realize that.
I stand firmly behind my statement.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

TimothyH, I don’t know if you were responding to me.
If you were, I don’t have any problem with anything you said except the last paragraph, and my only problem with that may be that I don’t understand it. Please explain further. In what way do we go to Mary to get to Jesus? (Please be patient with me—I’m not a Catholic.)

In any case, my question is still out there: “What are the disadvantages of going straight to Jesus? Is it just that you will not have the benefit of her prayers for you?”

God bless you.

 

[steve_b]

Incidentally, my wife and I read a book about regular appearances of Mary in the area of Bosnia. For all I know, they may still be occurring. The children that had the privilege of seeing her had a lot of the fruit of the Spirit in their lives. If I remember correctly, they often carried on a lengthy conversation with her. Have you heard of that?

It’s Croatia,

And yes it’s Majugorje. She is still appearing. I was there in 99
C:

The thought of Mary already having a body in heaven is also new to me. Could be! . . . So *that’s *what the Assumption is. Now I know!

Thanks. Have a nice day in our Lord.

The Ascension and the Assumption, Jesus and Mary in heaven, with bodies

 

[catharina]

It’s Croatia,

And yes it’s Majugorje. She is still appearing. I was there in 99

The Ascension and the Assumption, Jesus and Mary in heaven, with bodies

I offer this link from CA that states the Catholic Church
does NOT endorse the purported visions at Medjugorje.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=157302

This very brief two-page thread was closed by
Moderator Catherine Grant with these words (on May 29, 2007):

**Out of respect for the Bishop of Mostar and his request to not further discuss or promote the alleged apparitions of Medjugorje, this board has included it in the Banned Topics list since June, 2006. Before that time, it was included on the list because of its status as a private revelation without approval from the church, so discussion was limited to the church’s stance on the alleged apparitions. Bishop Ratko Perić has since clarified the church’s stance, which the Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls supported and defended. Therefore, there is nothing further to discuss specific to Medjugorje that cannot already by located through a search of the boards.

As for why this thread lasted approximately 10 hours on the boards, the problem is that I have not been able to perfect bilocation yet, but hope to work on that saintly skill soon. The best way to inform the moderation staff of violations of the forum rules is through the use of the little red triangle in the corner of each post which generates ****a Bad Post Report, calling the thread or post to my attention as soon as possible. **

 

[steve_b]

I offer this link from CA that states the Catholic Church
does NOT endorse the purported visions at Medjugorje.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=157302

This very brief two-page thread was closed by
Moderator Catherine Grant with these words (on May 29, 2007):

Out of respect for the Bishop of Mostar and his request to not further discuss or promote the alleged apparitions of Medjugorje, this board has included it in the Banned Topics list since June, 2006. Before that time, it was included on the list because of its status as a private revelation without approval from the church, so discussion was limited to the church’s stance on the alleged apparitions. Bishop Ratko Perić has since clarified the church’s stance, which the Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls supported and defended. Therefore, there is nothing further to discuss specific to Medjugorje that cannot already by located through a search of the boards.

**As for why this thread lasted approximately 10 hours on the boards, the problem is that I have not been able to perfect bilocation yet, but hope to work on that saintly skill soon. The best way to inform the moderation staff of violations of the forum rules is through the use of the little red triangle in the corner of each post which generates ****a Bad Post Report, calling the thread or post to my attention as soon as possible. **

thanks for the heads-up

 

[catharina]

thanks for the heads-up

You’re welcome. No problem.

 

[wheels10]

What are the disadvantages of going straight to Jesus?** Is it just that you will not have the benefit of her prayers for you?**

The disadvantage of going straight to Jesus is that if our Love for Him is imperfect, we end up hurting Him even more.
When Mary goes to Jesus on our behalf, Her perfect Love for Him brings nothing but joy into His Heart.

 

[Linda_Marie]

TimothyH, I don’t know if you were responding to me.
If you were, I don’t have any problem with anything you said except the last paragraph, and my only problem with that may be that I don’t understand it. Please explain further. In what way do we go to Mary to get to Jesus? (Please be patient with me—I’m not a Catholic.)

In any case, my question is still out there: “What are the disadvantages of going straight to Jesus? Is it just that you will not have the benefit of her prayers for you?”

God bless you.

Back in the days of the Kingdom of Israel, the Gebirah had a great deal of power. One could get in to see the King, but it took time, a lot of time. If one went through the Gebirah, they could get quick access. It got to where no one went any other way. If someone wanted an audience with the King, they applied to the Queen Mother.

It is the same now, you don’t ‘need’ Mary to reach Jesus, but that is doing it the hard way. She facilitates getting closer to Him.

For instance, the Rosary which so many think is about Mary, is actually about Jesus. There are two parts to the rosary prayers, one is the verbal recitation of the rosary prayers, and the second, more important part, is the meditation on the life of Jesus, from His Incarnation, to His Passion and death on the cross. The last 2 mysteries, the Assumption of Mary into heaven and the crowning of Mary as Queen of Heaven, are not only about Mary’s position in Heaven, but also about what we can expect as followers of Christ. We also will be reunited with our bodies and will be given the place in heaven that Jesus has been preparing for us. The Rosary is all about the Gospel. Mary helps, facilitates getting closer to Jesus in these meditations, helping our hearts to be transformed.

Mary was quite instrumental in my conversion, firstly, Our Lady of Lourdes and then, Our Lady of Fatima. These apparitions are fully approved by the Church.

My BIL had Duchennes Muscular Dystrophy. When I first met him, although I had compassion for his condition, he was extremely unpleasant to be around. He knew what was happening to him and he was angry and bitter. He was foul mouthed and very bad tempered. Then his mother had my other BIL take him to Lourdes. He complained bitterly the whole way. “Dunking him in some pool was not going to cure him.” The whole trip was an extreme trial since he didn’t appreciate being carted around like a lump with no free will. Well, he did not receive a physical cure, but his heart was transformed. The next time I saw him, he was entirely changed. He had come to peace with his condition. He was no longer foul mouthed or bitter. He was now good to be around. He had received a spiritual cure through the intercession of Mary.

This was my first introduction to what Mary can do for us. It was one of those :newidea: moments for me and I wasn’t a Catholic nor even a Christian at the time. Mary brought me to Jesus.

I recommend that you learn about the devotions to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

Basis for Devotion to the Sacred Heart

The Life of St. Margaret Mary Alocoque

 

[catharina]

Back in the days of the Kingdom of Israel, the Gebirah had a great deal of power. One could get in to see the King, but it took time, a lot of time. If one went through the Gebirah, they could get quick access. It got to where no one went any other way. If someone wanted an audience with the King, they applied to the Queen Mother.

It is the same now, you don’t ‘need’ Mary to reach Jesus, but that is doing it the hard way. She facilitates getting closer to Him.

For instance, the Rosary which so many think is about Mary, is actually about Jesus. There are two parts to the rosary prayers, one is the verbal recitation of the rosary prayers, and the second, more important part, is the meditation on the life of Jesus, from His Incarnation, to His Passion and death on the cross. The last 2 mysteries, the Assumption of Mary into heaven and the crowning of Mary as Queen of Heaven, are not only about Mary’s position in Heaven, but also about what we can expect as followers of Christ. We also will be reunited with our bodies and will be given the place in heaven that Jesus has been preparing for us. The Rosary is all about the Gospel. Mary helps, facilitates getting closer to Jesus in these meditations, helping our hearts to be transformed.

Mary was quite instrumental in my conversion, firstly, Our Lady of Lourdes and then, Our Lady of Fatima. These apparitions are fully approved by the Church.

My BIL had Duchennes Muscular Dystrophy. When I first met him, although I had compassion for his condition, he was extremely unpleasant to be around. He knew what was happening to him and he was angry and bitter. He was foul mouthed and very bad tempered. Then his mother had my other BIL take him to Lourdes. He complained bitterly the whole way. “Dunking him in some pool was not going to cure him.” The whole trip was an extreme trial since he didn’t appreciate being carted around like a lump with no free will. Well, he did not receive a physical cure, but his heart was transformed. The next time I saw him, he was entirely changed. He had come to peace with his condition. He was no longer foul mouthed or bitter. He was now good to be around. He had received a spiritual cure through the intercession of Mary.

This was my first introduction to what Mary can do for us. It was one of those :newidea: moments for me and I wasn’t a Catholic nor even a Christian at the time. Mary brought me to Jesus.

I recommend that you learn about the devotions to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

Basis for Devotion to the Sacred Heart

The Life of St. Margaret Mary Alocoque

Truly beautiful post. Thank you.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

The disadvantage of going straight to Jesus is that if our Love for Him is imperfect, we end up hurting Him even more.
When Mary goes to Jesus on our behalf, Her perfect Love for Him brings nothing but joy into His Heart.

OK, I’ll put that in my own words and you tell me if I’m correct. (I figure if one can put something into their own words and the mentor is satisfied with the explanation, one can say one understands.)
So if I go straight to Jesus, I will find Him but my love for Him will be imperfect and He will be hurt that I didn’t go through His beloved Mother Mary.

I’ll have to get to Linda Marie later.

Thanks. God be with you today, my brothers & sisters!