Do you have to believe Marian dogma to be a good Catholic?

[bluelake]

First off, WELCOME. That’s great news that you are coming fully into the Catholic Church.

You do not have to be sinful in order to be human.

Jesus Christ was fully human as well as fully divine.

Adam and Eve were both human, even before the fall.

The short answer to your question is- yes. You do have to believe what the Church teaches about Mary in order to be a faithful, orthodox, Catholic. This includes Mary’s perpetual virginity, Mary’s motherhood of God, the Immaculate Conception, and the Assupmtion.

As far as virginity goes, it is very likely that both Mary and Joseph had made vows of perpetual virginity before even knowing each other. This was not that rare among Jews at the time. They would have made simple vows earlier in life, and solemn vows after being married.

It’s also important to note that Perpetual Virginity, includes physical virginity. Meaning Mary was physically intact. Jesus wasn’t born the way most babies are born.

Belief in these doctrines has been around in the Church since the beginning- since when they happened. They are not modern inventions.

Mary is often “a stumbling block” for Protestants coming to the Faith. Trust her and trust the Church. Pray to her. She is your heavenly mother. Pray the rosary daily.

Pax and God Bless!

The Bible is silent about the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception of Mary.
The Catholic Church has ‘Tradtion’ which Prostestants do not teach.
However, I do not judge anyone’s salvation, nor am I a bible scholar.
I do love Mary, the Mother of God, ( Jn.8:58) and I also think the Rosary is a wonderful prayer.
Many teachings of scripture is akin to solving the mystery of the Holy Trinity.
iI don’t worry about things I do not understand today, I pray about it instead, How about you?

God bless,
bluelake

 

[vsedriver]

If Mary was born sinless, that would not make her human, for the very definition of human is a flawed creature by the Biblical standard.So she would have to be like a goddess or something.

 

[PRmerger]

Please expound.
Are you saying God overshadows the freewill (free choices) of the Pope & other leaders, guaranteeing they will not lead the church astray—even in the smallest detail?

I think if you ask yourself this same question with the inspired writers of Scripture–take, for example, St. Paul–you will find the answer to your question, Cal.

That is, do you believe God overshadowed the freewill (free choices) of St. Paul when he wrote his letter to the Philippians?

Note: please understand that we do not claim that when the Pope and Magisterium speak that they have the same inspiration as the Sacred Scriptures. That is, the Sacred Writers were* inspired* by the Holy Spirit, or “God-breathed”, but we speak of the Pope and the Magisterium as being “assisted” by the Holy Spirit.

At any rate, the point remains: if you can picture a man, such as St. Paul, being inspired to write the Letter to the Galatians without losing his free will, then surely you can apply the same concept to the Holy Spirit assisting the Pope.

 

[Contarini]

Personally, and this is just me… Living in the heart of Southern Baptist Evangelical Christianity here in the deep south, what Protestants think of Catholic devotion to Mary and the saints is about number 56,743 on the list of things I am currently concerned about. I could choose to be very disturbed by much of what Protestantism does, but I make a choice not to be disturbed.

Well, I regret your choice, but then I grew up as an evangelical Protestant in East Tennessee, but not a Southern Baptist, so I had to worry about the SBs! (I cut my theological teeth arguing with my AWANA leaders about eternal security.)

Jesus is the love of my life. His Mother is the second love of my life. I’m not ashamed of either.

Nor should you be!

And no, I don’t think Jesus is as close to me as he is to a monk who prays 7 hours each day or as close as he is to the Holy Father. God also willed a hierarchical structure.

I don’t dispute the validity of hierarchy (though I think you’d agree that God’s “closeness” to the Pope by virtue of his office is very different from His “closeness” to a holy person–including, in my opinion, the present Pope, but not all Popes throughout history!).

You mistook what I said. I did not challenge the idea that God is closer to some people than to others. What I said is that God, in Jesus Christ, is closer to each of us than any other human is. Of course Jesus is closer to Mary than to you or me. But Jesus is closer to us than Mary is. That’s why your analogy is so deeply mistaken. There is indeed hierarchy in the spiritual life, but the Incarnation cuts across hierarchy. And, by the way, this is what I learned from a Catholic priest expounding medieval philosophy (I think he was talking specifically of Bonaventure, who does a marvelous job of combining a Christocentric with a hierarchical view of reality).

We go to a priest for confession, not straigt to God. We go to Church to worship, not straight to God. We go to the Church for teaching, not straight to God.

I respectfully suggest that you are adopting Protestant ways of looking at things here. That’s how Protestants characterize the Catholic approach. Do you really want to characterize it that way?

Does the priest really come between you and God? Is that Catholic teaching? Isn’t it Catholic teaching that in the sacraments we are brought more intimately close to God than we could ever be through our own thoughts and feelings?

The Protestant idea of going “straight” to God is a naive illusion, because it ignores the fact that our experience of God is mediated by human thoughts and feelings. Evangelical experientalism puts us in touch with an inner experience of God. It may be a valid experience, but it is still mediated. Doesn’t Catholic sacramentalism teach that we come closerto God through liturgy and worship and the saints than through our own individual thoughts and feelings, important as those are? Or rather, that our thoughts and feelings mediate God’s presence best when they are informed and irradiated by the sacraments and the saints and the liturgy.

Edwin

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

. . . do you believe God overshadowed the freewill (free choices) of St. Paul when he wrote his letter to the Philippians?

No, I don’t believe that. Calvinists believe God overrules our choices. (But so that I don’t slander my Calvinistic brothers & sisters in the Lord, I want add that Calvinism and Arminianism overlap considerably, and many Calvinists have historically been greatly used by God.)

I also believe the church of A.D. 300 or 400—whenever it was—that decided which letters to include in the canon were consciously led by the Spirit, not robots. As someone said, “The Holy Spirit is a gentleman.” Others have compared him to a dove (Luke 3:22) which is easily scared away. My experience bears that out. He can’t cohabit with sin.

Have a wonderful day, my friend.

 

[PRmerger]

No, I don’t believe that.

Excellent. Then you can see how the Holy Spirit could assist the Pope and the Magisterium in preserving the deposit of faith, without interfering with their free will.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

On to my next questions . . .

Do you have to believe what the CC teaches on Mary to be a good Christian? To be a Christian at all?

In the Assumption, was Mary’s body instantly changed into an immortal body as Elijah’s body apparently was or did her old body die? If her old body died, do we know where she was buried?

Thanks.

 

[PRmerger]

On to my next questions . . .

Do you have to believe what the CC teaches on Mary to be a good Christian? To be a Christian at all?

It always gives me pause when Christians discuss that which we “have to” believe.

Apologist Mark Shea rather cheekily calls it the “Minimum Daily Requirement” question.

No lover asks “What’s the absolute bare minimum amount of contact with my Beloved I can get away with?” Similarly, if, as the Church claims, the fullness of revelation subsists in the Catholic communion, then “How little contact with the fullness of revelation can I get away with?” is the exact wrong question for somebody who is serious about discipleship to Christ.

I view it similarly to the way my children might ask me, “Am I bound to pick up all my socks, or just the ones under my bed?”

Really? You want to do only that which you are bound to do, sweet children o’mine? :tsktsk:

 

[PRmerger]

In the Assumption, was Mary’s body instantly changed into an immortal body as Elijah’s body apparently was or did her old body die?

Her body was assumed into heaven–although I’m not sure what you mean by “instantly changed into an immortal body”. She entered heaven with her body, so I assume (ha ha!) that it must be immortal.

Just curious, where do you find in Scripture that Elijah’s body was “instantly changed into an immortal body”?

If her old body died, do we know where she was buried?

Thanks.

The tomb of the Blessed Virgin is venerated in the Valley of Cedron, near Jerusalem. Modern writers hold, however, that Mary died and was buried at Ephesus.source

However, there are no claims that her body is buried in this tomb. It is simply a memorial.

However, neither those cities nor any other claimed her remains, though there are claims about possessing her (temporary) tomb. And why did no city claim the bones of Mary? Apparently because there weren’t any bones to claim, and people knew it. Here was Mary, certainly the most privileged of all the saints, certainly the most saintly, but we have no record of her bodily remains being venerated anywhere. source

 

[wheels10]

On to my next questions . . .

Do you have to believe what the CC teaches on Mary to be a good Christian? To be a Christian at all?

In the Assumption, was Mary’s body instantly changed into an immortal body as Elijah’s body apparently was or did her old body die? If her old body died, do we know where she was buried?

Thanks.

From “The Glories of Mary” by Saint Alphonsus de Ligouri.

“But, behold, Jesus is now come to take His Mother to the kingdom of the blessed. It was revealed to Saint Elizabeth that her Son appeared to Mary before she expired with His cross in His hands, to show the special glory He had obtained by the redemption; having, by His death, made acquisition of that great creature, who for all eternity was to honour Him more than all men and angels. Saint John Damascen relates that our Lord Himself gave her the viaticum, saying with tender love, ‘Receive, O My Mother, from My hands that same body which thou gavest to Me.’ And the Mother, having received with the greatest love that last communion, with her last breath said, ‘My Son, into Thy hands do I commend my spirit. I commend to Thee this soul, which from the beginning Thou didst create rich in so many graces, and by a singular privilege didst preserve from the stain of original sin. I commend to Thee my body, from which Thou didst deign to take Thy flesh and blood. I also commend to Thee these my beloved children (speaking of the holy disciples, who surrounded her); they are grieved at my departure. Do Thou, who lovest them more than I do, console them; bless them, and give them strength to do great things for Thy glory.’ The life of Mary being now at its close, the most delicious music, as Saint Jerome relates, was heard in the apartment where she lay; and, according to a revelation of Saint Bridget, the room was also filled with a brilliant light. This sweet music, and the unaccustomed splendour, warned the holy Apostles that Mary was then departing. This caused them again to burst forth in tears and prayers; and raising their hands, with one voice they exclaimed, ‘O, Mother, thou already goest to heaven; thou leavest us; give us thy last blessing, and never forget us miserable creatures.’ Mary, turning her eyes around upon all, as if to bid them a last farewell, said, ‘Adieu, my children; I bless you; fear not, I will never forget you.’ And now death came; not indeed clothed in mourning and grief, as it does to others, but adorned with light and gladness. But what do we say? Why speak of death? Let us rather say that Divine love came, and cut the thread of that noble life. And as a light, before going out, gives a last and brighter flash than ever, so did this beautiful creature, on hearing her Son’s invitation to follow Him, wrapped in the flames of love, and in the midst of her amorous sighs, give a last sigh of still more ardent love, and breathing forth her soul, expired.** Thus was that great soul, that beautiful dove of the Lord, loosened from the bands of this life; thus did she enter into the glory of the blessed, where she is now seated, and will be seated, Queen of Paradise, for all eternity.**”

 

[wheels10]

On to my next questions . . .

Do you have to believe what the CC teaches on Mary to be a good Christian? To be a Christian at all?

In the Assumption, was Mary’s body instantly changed into an immortal body as Elijah’s body apparently was or did her old body die? If her old body died, do we know where she was buried?

Thanks.

From “The Glories of Mary” by Saint Alphonsus de Ligouri.

“It would seem just, that the Church, on this day (15 August) of the Assumption of Mary into heaven, should invite us to weep rather than to rejoice, since our Mother has left this earth, and we no longer enjoy her presence. As Saint Bernard says, it seems that we should rather weep than exult. But, no, holy Church invites us to rejoice: “Let us all rejoice in the Lord, celebrating a feast in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary.” And if we love this Mother, we ought to think more of her glory than of our own particular consolation. What son does not rejoice, although separated from his mother, if he knows that she is going to take possession of a kingdom? Mary today is to be crowned Queen of Heaven, and shall we not celebrate a joyful feast if we truly love her? So, let us rejoice! After Jesus Christ Our Savior had completed the work of our redemption by His death and Resurrection, He ascended into the presence of His Father. Picture how the Savior came from heaven to meet His Mother, and how He said to her, “Arise, My beloved, My beautiful one, and come! For see, the winter is past” (Song 2:10-11). Come, My dear Mother, My beautiful one, leave that valley of tears where you have suffered so much for My love; “Come from Lebanon, my bride, come from Lebanon, come!” (Song 4:8) Come with soul and body to enjoy the reward for your holy life. If you have suffered greatly on earth, far greater is the glory I have prepared for you in heaven. Come there to sit near Me, come to receive the crown I will give you as Queen of the Universe.
Now, behold, Mary leaves the earth, and calling to mind the many graces she had there received from her Lord, she looks on it affectionately. And now Jesus offers her His Hand and the Blessed Mother rises in the air, passes beyond the clouds and arrives at the gates of heaven. When monarchs make their entrance to take possession of their kingdom, they do not pass through the gates of the city; for either these are taken off entirely or they pass over them. Hence the angels, when Jesus Christ entered paradise, cried: “Lift up, O gates, your lintels; reach up, you ancient portals, that the King of Glory may come in!” (Psalm 24:7). And now that Mary is going to take possession of the kingdom of the heavens, the angels who accompany her cry to the others who are within: “Lift up, O gates, your lintels; reach up, you ancient portals, that the Queen of Glory may come in!” And now Mary enters into the blessed country. But on her entrance the celestial spirits, seeing her so beautiful and glorious, ask of those who are with her, “Who is this coming up from the desert, leaning upon her lover?” (Song 8:5) Who is this creature, so beautiful, that comes from the desert of the earth, a place full of thorns and tribulations? This one comes so pure and so rich in virtue, supported by her beloved Lord. Who is she? The angels who accompany her answer: This is the Mother of our King. She is our queen, the blessed one among women, full of grace, the saint of saints, the beloved of God, the immaculate one, the dove, the most beautiful of all creatures. And then all those blessed spirits begin to bless and praise her, singing, with more reason than the Hebrews sang to Judith, “You are the glory of Jerusalem, the surpassing joy of Israel; you are the splendid boast of our people” (Judith 15:9). Our Lady and Our Queen, you are the glory of paradise, the joy of our heavenly country, you are the honor of us all. Be ever welcome, be ever blessed. We are all your servants, ready for your commands.”

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

It always gives me pause when Christians discuss that which we “have to” believe.

Apologist Mark Shea rather cheekily calls it the “Minimum Daily Requirement” question.

No lover asks “What’s the absolute bare minimum amount of contact with my Beloved I can get away with?” Similarly, if, as the Church claims, the fullness of revelation subsists in the Catholic communion, then “How little contact with the fullness of revelation can I get away with?” is the exact wrong question for somebody who is serious about discipleship to Christ.

I view it similarly to the way my children might ask me, “Am I bound to pick up all my socks, or just the ones under my bed?”

Really? You want to do only that which you are bound to do, sweet children o’mine? :tsktsk:

You’re totally misunderstanding me. I’m not considering becoming a Catholic. Rather, I’m trying to learn about Catholicism so I can understand it. This can be a first step toward breaking denominational divisions.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Wheels10, OK, so that answers the question about Mary’s body.

No one answered the first question. It’s an important question because the answer would give a big clue to how Catholicism views other denominations. . . . Or, you could just flat out tell me how Catholicism views other denominations. That might be even better!

 

[catharina]

Wheels10, OK, so that answers the question about Mary’s body.

No one answered the first question. It’s an important question because the answer would give a big clue to how Catholicism views other denominations. . . . Or, you could just flat out tell me how Catholicism views other denominations. That might be even better!

Catholics view Protestant groups as denominations.
Catholics view the Catholic faith as the Church,
in no way a denomination of any kind.

Does that help?

 

[PRmerger]

It’s an important question because the answer would give a big clue to how Catholicism views other denominations. . . . Or, you could just flat out tell me how Catholicism views other denominations. That might be even better!

Here’s how Catholicism views other denominations:

“The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” From the Catechism.

 

[PRmerger]

You’re totally misunderstanding me. I’m not considering becoming a Catholic. Rather, I’m trying to learn about Catholicism so I can understand it. This can be a first step toward breaking denominational divisions.

I get that. I know you’re not considering becoming a Catholic.

But your question: “Do you have to believe what the CC teaches on Mary to be a good Christian?”

is the same as saying:

“How little contact with the fullness of revelation can I get away with?”

It is the exact wrong question anyone should be asking who’s trying to understand faith.

 

[catharina]

Here’s how Catholicism views other denominations:

“The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” From the Catechism.

Wonderful answer, PR.
Far better than mine.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Both answers were helpful. Thank-you.

Let me review what I’ve learned about Mary.
The general concensus on this forum, with possibly one exception, is that the answer to the question of this thread is Yes.

The CC’s unique teachings on Mary are:

1. She is the Mother of God. (This belief is the same as Protestants but Protestants don’t say it that way, perhaps because in the Bible the term “God” usually refers to the Father.)
2. Mary remained a virgin her whole life even though she married Joseph.
3. Mary was Immaculately Conceived in her mother’s womb, which means she was born without original sin. She also stayed free of personal sin during her whole life.
4. Mary experienced the Assumption. Like Elijah and Enoch before her, she never died but went straight to heaven with her body, whereas most Christians who have died are in a disembodied state awaiting the resurrection.
5. Mary’s love for God was and is greater than all humans who have ever lived except our Lord Jesus.
6. We can pray to Mary and she will pass our prayers on to God. This is better than praying directly to God?

How am I doing?

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

I get that. I know you’re not considering becoming a Catholic.

But your question: “Do you have to believe what the CC teaches on Mary to be a good Christian?”

is the same as saying:

“How little contact with the fullness of revelation can I get away with?”

It is the exact wrong question anyone should be asking who’s trying to understand faith.

My question is, “How important to the CC are these doctrines for one’s spiritual maturity?”

 

[PRmerger]

Both answers were helpful. Thank-you.

Let me review what I’ve learned about Mary.
The general concensus on this forum, with possibly one exception, is that the answer to the question of this thread is Yes.

The CC’s unique teachings on Mary are:

1. She is the Mother of God. (This belief is the same as Protestants but Protestants don’t say it that way, perhaps because in the Bible the term “God” usually refers to the Father.)
2. Mary remained a virgin her whole life even though she married Joseph.
3. Mary was Immaculately Conceived in her mother’s womb, which means she was born without original sin. She also stayed free of personal sin during her whole life.
4. Mary experienced the Assumption. Like Elijah and Enoch before her, she never died but went straight to heaven with her body, whereas most Christians who have died are in a disembodied state awaiting the resurrection.
5. Mary’s love for God was and is greater than all humans who have ever lived except our Lord Jesus.
6. We can pray to Mary and she will pass our prayers on to God. This is better than praying directly to God?

How am I doing?

Great job with #1-4.

#5 and #6 do not correctly limn Catholic teaching.

-We do not quantify Mary’s love.
-We do not proclaim that praying to Mary is “better than praying directly to God.”

And a tweak to #4: it is not Catholic teaching that Mary “never died.” The Church has not made that definitive teaching–she may have died and then been assumed into heaven, or she may have not died and been assumed into heaven.