do you have to go through the born-again thing to get to Heaven?

[tomarin]

Thank you for your courteous question.

Anyone who takes the time to learn a musical instrument is okay in my book.

I for one was regenerated 6 months before baptism. So I can’t in honesty answer all cases because that would violate how God has moved in my life.

Are we talking about adult baptism here?

I have observed that in the New Testament book of Acts folks were Baptized at the same time as regeneration. Check it out…there was no “waiting for 6 months until the snow melted and the river warmed up” (as what happened in my case). So perhaps if the book of Acts methodology of baptism at the point of belief were consistently followed my answer would be different.

To be honest I’m not too familiar with the concept of regeneration. That’s what drew me into the conversation.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Anyone who takes the time to learn a musical instrument is okay in my book.

Are we talking about adult baptism here?

Probably because when I read the book of Acts I only see adult baptisms. Note: I am not claiming infant baptisms are invalid because I don’t know that.

To be honest I’m not too familiar with the concept of regeneration. That’s what drew me into the conversation.

Sorry for the big Theological word. Let me try to be nonTheological.

Christianity for everybody has to have a starting point.

I have known some who claim that as far back as they remember they have always been Christian and can’t remember when they were not. Fair enough. But it has to start somewhere.

I know some who claim it happens when they were baptized as an infant and I for one don’t completely discount the possibility. Just how God works in young children is sort of a wonderful, marvelous mystery to me. The important thing is that Christianity has a starting point.

For me it started on a day I remember very well. It was in a practice room in college of all places where I prayed with one other person. It was in November during the winter.

Because the church I started taking up with did not have the set up for doing baptisms, they did them in a brook. Since this was in snow country, baptisms only happened during the summer. But anyway…

But however it starts, one distinct event occurs. The Holy Spirit…the third person of the trinity actually indwells the new Christian. This is being born of the Holy Spirit and what I mean when I use the term regeneration.

 

[elvisman]

Probably because when I read the book of Acts I only see adult baptisms. Note: I am not claiming infant baptisms are invalid because I don’t know that.

When Nicodemus asked Jesus how a person is born again, he replied, "Amen, amen, I say
to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit”
**(John 3:5). The importance of the effects of Baptism is echoed by St. Peter in 1 Peter
3:21, **in which he speaks of the 8 people in Noah’s Ark who were saved through water.
He goes on to say, “This prefigured baptism, which saves you, not as a removal of dirt
from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of
Jesus Christ.”

---

When St. Peter baptized Cornelius the Centurion, he baptized his entire household
including** children and servants (Acts 10:1-49, 11:13-14). We see the same thing in Acts**
16:23-24** with the household of the Philippian jailer and 1 Cor. 1:16 with Stephanas’
household. The plain fact is that households include children of all ages, including**
infants.

---

When the disciples rebuked the children from approaching Jesus, He told them “Let the
children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.”
(Matt 19:14, Luke 18:16)****. Those who would keep the Sacrament of Baptism from
infants are doing precisely what Christ himself disapproved of.

---

Just as with the Old Covenant and circumcision, the faith of the parents/guardians will
guide the baptized child in the faith with the help of the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant.

 

[elvisman]

Actually - it is your opinion that I am wrong.

But thanks for your opinion anyway. I am certainly open to being corrected if the Lord Jesus Christ shows me I am wrong.

**He already DID show you that you’re wrong **(John 3:51, Pet. 3:21).
Unfortunately, it appears that your spiritual pride is getting in the way.

 

[AmateurPianist]

He already DID show you that you’re wrong (John 3:51, Pet. 3:21).
Unfortunately, it appears that your spiritual pride is getting in the way.

Thank you for your opinion that I am wrong.

And thank you for your opinion that I am prideful.

I know that I like everybody has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

However…

You do not know me at all. You are in no position of Spiritual Authority over me.

so…

You totally lack any authority to speak into my life like that.

But thank you for your opinion anyway.

 

[AmateurPianist]

When Nicodemus asked Jesus how a person is born again, he replied, "Amen, amen, I say
to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit”
(John 3:5). The importance of the effects of Baptism is echoed by St. Peter in 1 Peter
3:21**, **in which he speaks of the 8 people in Noah’s Ark who were saved through water.
He goes on to say, “This prefigured baptism, which saves you, not as a removal of dirt
from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of
Jesus Christ.”

---

When St. Peter baptized Cornelius the Centurion, he baptized his entire** household
including children and servants (Acts 10:1-49, 11:13-14**). We see the same thing in Acts
16:23-24** with the household of the Philippian jailer and 1 Cor. 1:16 with Stephanas’
household. The plain fact is that households include children of all ages, including**
infants.

---

When the disciples rebuked the children from approaching Jesus, He told them “Let the
children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.”
(Matt 19:14, Luke 18:16). Those who would keep the Sacrament of Baptism from
infants are doing precisely** **what Christ himself disapproved of.

---

Just as with the Old Covenant and circumcision, the faith of the parents/guardians will
guide the baptized child in the faith with the help of the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant.

Thank you for your interpretation of God’s written word.

 

[elvisman]

Thank you for your interpretation of God’s written word.

Hey, it’s not mine - it’s the Church’s.

**It’s the same interpretation that has held steady for 2000 years and didn’t even come into question until about 500 years ago. **That was when (Edited) men rejected it and invented another tradition - another doctrine.

 

[Nicea325]

And again, thank you for your opinion.

But I maintain I was regenerated 6 months before I was water baptized. In fact I know that to be the case and date my Christianity starting from that point.

But again, when the Lord Jesus Christ tells me I am wrong, then I certainly am open to change. Till then, see the verse in my sig.

Opinion? Baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Spirit is an opinion? Care to show us another formula Jesus taught to baptize?

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmateurPianist
Probably because when I read the book of Acts I only see adult baptisms. Note: I am not claiming infant baptisms are invalid because I don’t know that.

Of course,because there were no cradle Christians at the time,so yes,logically adults were the first ones. However,NO WHERE is baptism taught or restricted to adults only.

St.Paul baptized houeholds and yet many still deny it. I have yet to see one shred of evidence where the ancient Jews did not consider young children or infants as part of the household.

 

[Nicea325]

Thank you for your interpretation of God’s written word.

And care to elaborate on yours,since I am assuming it is infallible? If it is not infallible,then how can anyone trust your interpretation and if their salvation is not at stake?

 

[AmateurPianist]

Opinion? Baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Spirit is an opinion? Care to show us another formula Jesus taught to baptize?

That is not what I meant. BTW…I added to my ignore list, so I will not be responding to everybody.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Of course,because there were no cradle Christians at the time,so yes,logically adults were the first ones. However,NO WHERE is baptism taught or restricted to adults only.

St.Paul baptized houeholds and yet many still deny it. I have yet to see one shred of evidence where the ancient Jews did not consider young children or infants as part of the household.

I think I did say either in that post or another one that I do not consider infant baptism as invalid (double negative). It is not up to me to be judge and jury as to how other organizations choose to handle baptism.

 

[AmateurPianist]

And care to elaborate on yours,since I am assuming it is infallible? If it is not infallible,then how can anyone trust your interpretation and if their salvation is not at stake?

Where have I claimed that I am incapable of being incorrect? If I have, please quote me so that I may retract it.

Please don’t take anything that I say on my say so (not that you would). I do not take anything you say on your say so either. Instead I think it wise to follow the verse in my sig.

 

[Leo_The_Great]

Yes, you must be born again through the waters of baptism to be saved

 

[Linda_Marie]

I have observed that in the New Testament book of Acts folks were Baptized at the same time as regeneration. Check it out…there was no “waiting for 6 months until the snow melted and the river warmed up” (as what happened in my case). So perhaps if the book of Acts methodology of baptism at the point of belief were consistently followed my answer would be different.

Those people were already practising Jews. They already had a great deal of knowledge about God and their faith so they did not need a long catechumenate. Once Gentiles began converting it became apparent that they were in woeful ignorance of the Truth and needed time to learn the faith. In my case, I had to wait nearly 2 years from my conversion to my Baptism.

I understand what you are talking about although I cannot say that it happened to me in one fell swoop. I had a series of experiences through which God touched me and called me. Although my heart was with God, I had not yet received regeneration because I was not yet Baptised. (perhaps this discussion needs to have all these terms defined. we may be talking past each other because they mean different things to us)

I don’t think you need to have a ‘born-again’ experience to be saved, as it is defined by evangelicals. Some people are raised in the faith and never experience that moment of awakening to God because they have known God from their earliest years. They never have that moment of change from not knowing Him. Does this mean that they are not saved? I don’t think so.

One must receive the Trinitarian Baptism to be saved whether or not one ever has a ‘born-again’ experience.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Every baptized Christian has been born again of water and the Spirit. We don’t get to heaven without it, under normal circumstances (John 3:3-5). The Catholic Church recognizes two other forms of baptism: of desire and of blood/martyrdom (in either case, lacking the opportunity for baptism before death). Further:

CCC 847 Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience, those too may achieve eternal salvation.

“Accepting Jesus as one’s personal Lord and Savior” or “giving one’s heart to Jesus” results in the “born-again” experience. But this is a Protestant, man-made invention; it’s not the biblical way.

Jim Dandy
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

 

[Jim_Dandy]

The choices given in the poll for this thread include, *‘yes but you can be “born-again” in Purgatory’ *.

Purgatory has nothing to do with being “born again.” I just wanted to make that clear.

Peace to all, Jim Dandy

 

[Dokimas]

Where have I claimed that I am incapable of being incorrect? If I have, please quote me so that I may retract it.

Please don’t take anything that I say on my say so (not that you would). I do not take anything you say on your say so either. Instead I think it wise to follow the verse in my sig.

How does it feel to be a deer in the den of coyotes?

 

[distracted]

I’ve read about 20 posts… hope to get to all of them soon…

My opinion (after thinking about it, etc…) is that you DO have to go through this radical spiritual conversion to get into Heaven… but if you go thro such a thing and then sin… well, you have to deal with that stain on your soul… and if you were to die without dealing with it (fully repenting/expiating)you could end up in Hell… This is far from the OSAS thing… Some think that once you have been born again you cannot ever end up in Hell… and this from “Bible Christians” …

so … uh… where does it say THAT in the Bible?

It seems to me that only those who claim to be born-again (which is usually protestants) know how to truly act like a Christian. I guess i am a little (yeah right ) bitter about how Catholics have treated me throughout my life…

Those who have been thro this regeneration thing do NOT treat me shabbily unless they have fallen into sin & don’t particularly want to pull themselves out of it…

just my thoghts…

 

[distracted]

The choices given in the poll for this thread include, *‘yes but you can be “born-again” in Purgatory’ *.

Purgatory has nothing to do with being “born again.” I just wanted to make that clear.

Peace to all, Jim Dandy

i hate when people make comments with no explanation or elaboration… and then just take off…