Do you have to repent to be forgiven

[Odell]

Philthy,

Christ did pay the price for the sins of the whole world (to which you agree), but unless the individual sinner accepts Christ, and the free gift of salvation they will stand before God as guilty.

(Mt 7:21) “Not everyone who calls me lord lord will enter the kingdom of heaven.”

Righteousness is not gained by repentance and adherance to the law… but by faith in Christ… which is how we acquire the righteousness of God. No-one who has that righteousness will be judged because they are “in Christ”.

But I thought that true repentace brings us back into a relationtion ship with Jesus since it was hindered before.

And im afraid you do not understand the biblical meaning of rightousness.

One more thing when you sin you are no longer “in Christ”
(Rom11:22) “Gods kindness towards you provided you remain in His kindness otherwise you too will be CUT off.”

You cant be cut off unless you are first apart of “in Christ”

(Jn15:4) “Remain in me as I remain in you Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless is remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you REMAIN in me.” Key words remain in ME (Jesus)

This all has to do with once saved always saved lets start another thred on this if you want to continue. I dont think there is any room for it on this thred. You are haveing a hard enough time as it is. Lets stick to the topic

Rev20:13) “The sea gave up its dead: then Death and Hades gave up there dead. ALL the dead where **JUDGED **acording to there deeds.”

Notice that ALL are Judged it does not say only those who are not in Jesus or those who are not rightous or that those

 

[bibleapologist]

Odell,

Not one JUDGEMENT acount in the bible talks about being judged by only our faith. Thats assuming that when you say rejection of Christ you are not pertaining to sin also, but just faith.

The references you gave…

(Rom 5-8) “By your stubbornnes and impatiant heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just JUDGEMENT of God, who will repay everyone according to his works eternal life to those who seek glory.”

Romans chapter 2 (which I believe you are referencing) is Paul speaking to the Church in Rome who were judging other people’s sins… Paul was speaking to saved people, if you read the verses before that back to verse 1 it becomes evident that is the case.

(Mt12:36) " I tell you, on the day of judgement people will render an account for EVERY CARELESS WORD the speak."

All of these verses are referring to the judgement of those who are written in the book of life (as Rev. 20:12 says). Those people who are saved, will be judged according to what they have done… and rewarded accordingly.

(Rev20:13) “The sea gave up its dead: then Death and Hades gave up there dead. ALL the daed where JUDGED acording to there deeds.”

As I stated above, the only requirement for judgement to hell is that your name is not written in the Lamb’s book of life. Now, whether there is greater or lesser punishments in hell according to greater or lesser amounts of sin accrued during one’s life is a different matter altogether

Again why is all the JUDGEMENT acounts in the bible about what we do and dont do. But you are telling us different.

They aren’t. When judgement is referred to in the New Testament in reference to eternal life or eternal damnation, it is always in reference to whether or not one’s name is written in the Lamb’s book of life.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[bibleapologist]

Al Masetti,

On more than a few occasions, Jesus sort of indicated that an expression of sorrow was all that was needed.

Absolutely not! Jesus, when He was teaching the disciples how to pray, He contrasted a right attitude with the superficial righteousness (expressions of sorrow) of the Pharisee’s, He said…

“Mat 6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.”

As far as the Centurion goes… I’m sure Jesus knew His heart. It wasn’t just the superficial statement that amazed Jesus… It was the centurion’s faith.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[bibleapologist]

Milliardo,

This explanation does not negate the fact that sin is a rejection of Christ, and in fact acutally only bolsters that notion. It’s a nice try, but it doesn’t cut it.

I think you are going to have to prove your position if you want me to believe you.

If the essence of sin is the rejection of Christ, you are going to have to prove that Biblically and logically.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[bibleapologist]

Milliardo,

What you say here is contradictory, since you say that first that true repentance is Godly sorrow, which then must come from the heart, or should be sincere, then you come around and say it isn’t because it isn’t like that of the Law. So which one is it?

I don’t see a contradiction at all. But, I do see how a belief that repentance of sin is required for salvation, my statement would be confusing.

Repentance of sin is only required AFTER salvation…which makes sense because we have the law in our hearts which convicts us of sin and facilitates repentance.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[bibleapologist]

Odell,

You also realize that the sin hinders your relationship with Jesus. In which true repentance brings us back to a true relationship with Jesus.

Good point. But Christ didn’t wait for us to be penitent to make the sacrifice for our sins…

“Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”

And it is that love that draws us to Christ, not conviction from the letter of the law…

“Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another.
Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,”

Repentance of sin is considered to be an act of righteousness, and we are not saved by an act of righteousness as verse 5 says. We are justified by grace not works…

“Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[Milliardo]

Repentance of sin is only required AFTER salvation…which makes sense because we have the law in our hearts which convicts us of sin and facilitates repentance.

Now you are getting more confusing; first you said repentance is not necessary, then you go around and say it is required. So, in essence, you agree that repentance is necessary.

I think you are going to have to prove your position if you want me to believe you.

No–you prove to us that sin is not a rejection of Christ; please show us where is it stated, implicitly or explicitly, that sin is not the rejection of Christ.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Al Masetti,

Absolutely not! Jesus, when He was teaching the disciples how to pray, He contrasted a right attitude with the superficial righteousness (expressions of sorrow) of the Pharisee’s, He said…

“Mat 6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.”

As far as the Centurion goes… I’m sure Jesus knew His heart. It wasn’t just the superficial statement that amazed Jesus… It was the centurion’s faith.

John
www.gideonsword.net

“Absolutely not”… seems … a little… strong??

Some of us humanoids seem excessively eager to condemn others of us.

I know I don’t have all the answers, even after being here for six decades+.

[To paraphrase Fulton J. Sheen, “what is your sin?”]

All I do know is that God is Infinite and He has Infinite Compassion for sinners who are sorry. Writing a book on the exegesis of repentence is not required.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

We all know who bibleapologest is I just read somthing on his web page. That claims you do not have to repent to be forgiven and a woman wrote in asking John the question. I would like for her if she ever visits Johns Web page again maybe she will find a link to our forums so she can get a catholic response to her question. instead of his preverted response.

anyway many of you could probably respond to this page better than I could. Maybe John himself will chime in. here is the article
www.gideonsword.net/qanda/QandA/repent_forgiven.htm

I have to atleast give John credit to linking the forums on his webpage. Most people would not even give a catholic response to there disagrements with the Church. So I would have to Thank John for that, giveing us catholics a chance to respond to his arguments. Maybe we will eventually have a catholic response to all his Q/A page on his own webpage. again thanks John for atleast given us a chance to rebute your claims and defend what we really teach.

Do you mean to be forgiven by God, or by men?
To be forgiven by God, no repentance is necessary, BUT, in order to EXPERIENCE that forgiveness, repentance is VITAL.

 

[Odell]

Odell,
Romans chapter 2 (which I believe you are referencing) is Paul speaking to the Church in Rome who were judging other people’s sins… Paul was speaking to saved people, if you read the verses before that back to verse 1 it becomes evident that is the case.

These people who are saved what does it say YOU who pass judgment YOU condemn YOURSELF, YOU are storing up wrath for yourself…Just JUDGMENT of God who will repay everyone according to his WORKS.

All of these verses are referring to the judgement of those who are written in the book of life (as Rev. 20:12 says). Those people who are saved, will be judged according to what they have done… and rewarded accordingly.

first you say saved are not judged but now they are?

The botom line is everyone is judged acording to what they have and have not done. Its biblical:thumbsup:

As I stated above, the only requirement for judgement to hell is that your name is not written in the Lamb’s book of life. Now, whether there is greater or lesser punishments in hell according to greater or lesser amounts of sin accrued during one’s life is a different matter altogether

your name is not writen in the lambs book if you do evil
(2Cor5:10) "For we must ALL appear before the Judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may recieve recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.

If you are good to heaven you go if you where evil to hell you go. if you do evil your name is not in the book.

They aren’t. When judgement is referred to in the New Testament in reference to eternal life or eternal damnation, it is always in reference to whether or not one’s name is written in the Lamb’s book of life.

I say that every time in the bible that Judgment is mention it is in regards to what we have or have not done and you say THEY ARENT. Sorry John read the verses again you dont get a free pass just because you belive Jesus is your personal Lord and savior if you are not sorry and repent of your sins there is a due punishment for your sins. no way around it.

Repentance of sin is considered to be an act of righteousness, and we are not saved by an act of righteousness as verse 5 says. We are justified by grace not works…

Just as we are not justified by faith. I agree with you John we are justified by the grace of God. but we have to respond to the grace by faith and works.

Did you not also say that the grace of God facilitates repentance. So when you repent is it not a good sign that you have the grace of God. I would have to say if you do not repent the grace of God is not withen you.

 

[Odell]

Do you mean to be forgiven by God, or by men?
To be forgiven by God, no repentance is necessary, BUT, in order to EXPERIENCE that forgiveness, repentance is VITAL.

if it is not necessary than why does God tell us to do it. And why does he expect people to confess there sins to a priest?

 

[bibleapologist]

Milliardo,

Now you are getting more confusing; first you said repentance is not necessary, then you go around and say it is required. So, in essence, you agree that repentance is necessary.

No, I didn’t say it was required. But it is only possible with the law, and that law is not written in our hearts until we receive the Holy Spirit.

No–you prove to us that sin is not a rejection of Christ; please show us where is it stated, implicitly or explicitly, that sin is not the rejection of Christ.

Sin is a rejection, and disobedience to the letter of the law… which is given by God… so, sin is in that sense a rejection of God by disobedience to His commandments

But sin is not necessarily a rejection of salvation. Remember, that Christ died for us “while we were yet sinners”.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[bibleapologist]

Odell,

These people who are saved what does it say YOU who pass judgment YOU condemn YOURSELF, YOU are storing up wrath for yourself…Just JUDGMENT of God who will repay everyone according to his WORKS.

There are other types of condemnation than just eternal damnation in hell… the judgment of Romans 2 is speaking of another judgment.

first you say saved are not judged but now they are?

The botom line is everyone is judged acording to what they have and have not done. Its biblical

Saved people are not judged according to their sin, becuase that is covered by the Blood of Christ… we “are” the righteousness of God.

Yes, everyone will be judged according to their works… if they are saved. We will be judged according to what we have done for the gospel, or what we have failed to do, or what we have hindered in being done.

Let’s get something straight… Judgement does not always mean “condemnation”, sometimes judgement can lead to praise, etc.

(2Cor5:10) "For we must ALL appear before the Judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may recieve recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.

Again, this “Judgement seat of Christ” is only for saved people, to be judged according to their works (good and bad). If you are not saved, you have died without the righteousness of Christ and you will be condemned to hell.

If you are good to heaven you go if you where evil to hell you go. if you do evil your name is not in the book.

That type of view is no different than any other pagan religion which denies Christ and His sacrifice. James wrote in his letter:

"Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all. "

You, Odell, are guilty of the whole law. How do I know that? Because you are a sinner. It doesn’t matter if you only sinned once in your life when you were 5 years old and stole a piece of gum from the convenience store… you are guilty of the whole law… And your punishment is the same as the liars…

“Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

You are not going to be able to stand before God and say… “Look at all the sins I didn’t commit”, or “Look at all the good things I did”. It doesn’t matter, you have offended, and are guilty of the whole law.

If you went to court for a traffic ticket and were found guilty, you wouldn’t dare say “Well, I didn’t kill anyone”, or “Look at all the times I DIDN’T run a stop sign”. You would have no choice but to accept the punishment for your actions.

Just as we are not justified by faith. I agree with you John we are justified by the grace of God. but we have to respond to the grace by faith and works.

No, we don’t HAVE to respond to the grace by faith and works… we always have the choice to respond… we SHOULD respond.

Did you not also say that the grace of God facilitates repentance. So when you repent is it not a good sign that you have the grace of God. I would have to say if you do not repent the grace of God is not withen you.

Exactly, that is why true repentance can only be legitimate AFTER one is saved and is indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[Milliardo]

There are other types of condemnation than just eternal damnation in hell… the judgment of Romans 2 is speaking of another judgment.

It does? Just for a quick review, Romans 2:5-8 merely echoes Matthew 25:31ff. Revelation 20:11-15 fits in as well here. There is no other type of Judgment that Jesus said. Let us repeat that: there is no other Judgment scene that He recounted, just that one in Matthew. I am interested what other Judgment scenes there are that you claim the New Testament states.

Saved people are not judged according to their sin, becuase that is covered by the Blood of Christ… we “are” the righteousness of God.

You keep on repeating that, as if it’s a mantra; can you give us any passage that alludes to your notion?

Yes, everyone will be judged according to their works… if they are saved. We will be judged according to what we have done for the gospel, or what we have failed to do, or what we have hindered in being done.

You are confusing–first you say we’re not judged according to our works, then come around and say we are; so which is which?

Let’s get something straight… Judgement does not always mean “condemnation”, sometimes judgement can lead to praise, etc.

That’s not the point; the point is we’ll still be judged by what we did. Do you agree with that then?

Again, this “Judgement seat of Christ” is only for saved people, to be judged according to their works (good and bad). If you are not saved, you have died without the righteousness of Christ and you will be condemned to hell.

Let us for an instance say that you are right, for the sake of argument; does this then negate the fact that we’ll be judged by our works? In fact, by saying those saved would be judged by their works, you have inevitably agreed that we are judged by what we do, not merely by faith alone.

No, I didn’t say it was required. But it is only possible with the law, and that law is not written in our hearts until we receive the Holy Spirit.

Yet, it doesn’t negate the need for repentance, does it now? See, you inevitably agree that repentance is actually needed.

Sin is a rejection, and disobedience to the letter of the law… which is given by God… so, sin is in that sense a rejection of God by disobedience to His commandments

Are you differentiating Christ from God? So if sin is a rejection of God, then we reject Christ. We reject His Commandments. We reject our belief in Him by what we do. For instance, if I rob someone, I am then rejecting Christ’s call for us to love our neighbors. I am rejecting His call to not covet one’s property. I am rejecting His call for us to share what we have. It is rejection, plain and simple, or do you dispute this fact?

But sin is not necessarily a rejection of salvation. Remember, that Christ died for us “while we were yet sinners”

It is, I am sorry to say; by sinning, we reject Christ and His gift of salvation by saying, “Look at me; I am myself. I am I. I do not accept Your commandments. I do not accept Your words. I commit this in defiance of You” That is sin. is that not a rejection of salvation? Please, show us again where is it that sin is not a rejection of Christ.

 

[Odell]

Odell,
Repentance of sin is considered to be an act of righteousness, and we are not saved by an act of righteousness

Righteousness is not gained by repentance and adherance to the law… but by faith in Christ… which is how we acquire the righteousness of God.

Faith is a act of rightousness but yet we are not saved by acts of rightousness, its what you said. seems to be a contradiction. The botom line is you are going to heaven unrepentant of mortal sin if you except Jesus or not before sinnning.

There are other types of condemnation than just eternal damnation in hell… the judgment of Romans 2 is speaking of another judgment.

that is your interpritation.

Saved people are not judged according to their sin, becuase that is covered by the Blood of Christ… we “are” the righteousness of God.

bible says differently we are judged on what we do or do not do if it is mortal to hell you go.

Again, this “Judgement seat of Christ” is only for saved people, to be judged according to their works (good and bad). If you are not saved, you have died without the righteousness of Christ and you will be condemned to hell.

if you dont repent you do not have the righteousness of God and you go to hell.

If you went to court for a traffic ticket and were found guilty, you wouldn’t dare say “Well, I didn’t kill anyone”, or “Look at all the times I DIDN’T run a stop sign”. You would have no choice but to accept the punishment for your actions.

agreed

No, we don’t HAVE to respond to the grace by faith and works… we always have the choice to respond… we SHOULD respond.

Is that scriptural? I dont ever remember Jesus saying you can believe in me and you should do what i ask but its not necesary.

Exactly, that is why true repentance can only be legitimate AFTER one is saved and is indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

And if you do not repent you are not indewelt with the Holy Spirit and if you are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit ???

 

[stillwater]

this is where i am also confused. some people claim you can be saved by repentance alone, some say by good works, and some say both. so how bout those who haven’t heard of god? like unborn babies and mentally-disabled people?

 

[deb1]

this is where i am also confused. some people claim you can be saved by repentance alone, some say by good works, and some say both. so how bout those who haven’t heard of god? like unborn babies and mentally-disabled people?

Faith has to be active, not mere belief. It isn’t enough to simply acknowledge God is God, one must also show their faith.

IF a man says continually that he loves his wife but beats her up none of us would believe his words. If a man is gentle, caring and respectful of his wife, most of us would recognize that he loves her greatly. This is because real love is not simply a feeling but actions also. The same is true of faith.

Please look up Invincible Ignorance. It would derail the thread if wwe discuss it here but it explains the Catholic view on those who have never heard of Jesus.

 

[Philthy]

Philthy,

Christ did pay the price for the sins of the whole world (to which you agree), but unless the individual sinner accepts Christ, and the free gift of salvation they will stand before God as guilty.

I didnt ask you whether God would judge them as guilty John - you are dodging the questions I asked. I asked you whether God took his vengence out for those sins twice - once on Christ and again on the sinner who is punished in hell. And it seems you are saying that God will take his vengence out for sin twice - once when he took it out on Christ and again on the individual sinner in hell. Please correct me if Im wrong.
ba:

Righteousness is not gained by repentance and adherance to the law… but by faith in Christ…

Unless, of course, repentance IS faith in Christ, John. Did you overlook that one little caveat to your theology? Repentance IS part of “having faith” in Christ, just like forgiving others is and loving one another is. Such an approach to “having faith” in Christ makes perfect sense and ties all the little “faith alone” loose ends together - like reconciling Paul and James. It also makes sense of Christs words unless you forgive others, you will not be forgiven by God (Matt 6:14)
ba:

No, sinning is rejecting the letter of the law (the commandment). A person can attempt to keep the law, and still reject Christ and His atoning sacrifice… the Pharisees did.

John
www.gideonsword.net

I can only shake my head at such myopic theology. You are really gonna hold on to the ridiculous notion that sinning is not rejecting Christ? “…in Him there is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning…” One cannot be “in Christ”, that is, “in Him”, and keep on sinning. That is the gospel truth John.
“If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, …the blood of Jesus …purifies us from all sin.” 1John 1:6-7
And how do we know that we “have faith” in Christ?
“We know that we have come to know him IF WE OBEY HIS COMMANDS…Whoever claims to live in him MUST walk as Jesus did.” To do otherwise is to simply decieve yourself.

 

[Philthy]

Odell,

The references you gave…

(Rom 5-8) “By your stubbornnes and impatiant heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just JUDGEMENT of God, who will repay everyone according to his works eternal life to those who seek glory.”

Romans chapter 2 (which I believe you are referencing) is Paul speaking to the Church in Rome who were judging other people’s sins… Paul was speaking to saved people, if you read the verses before that back to verse 1 it becomes evident that is the case.

(Mt12:36) " I tell you, on the day of judgement people will render an account for EVERY CARELESS WORD the speak."

All of these verses are referring to the judgement of those who are written in the book of life (as Rev. 20:12 says). Those people who are saved, will be judged according to what they have done… and rewarded accordingly.

John
www.gideonsword.net

I always find this interesting - the separation of Salvation and Reward. Is it your understanding that if someone is “saved” and yet they live a life of sin that they will remain saved but have no reward in Heaven?

 

[Philthy]

Repentance of sin is only required AFTER salvation…
John
www.gideonsword.net

Now Im confused. Why is repentance required AFTER salvation, and what is the eternal consequence of not fulfilling the requirement?
Furthermore, this completely contradicts the answer you gave to “julie ann” or whatever her name was. She asked you if her adulterous father needed to repent to be forgiven and you said, “NO” Obviously the “need” to repent is for some other reason…what is it?