Do you know people who pray in tongues?

[nightshade]

What I am about to say is entirely anecdotal so take it for what it is.

I come from a family that was mostly charismatic protestant- Pentecostal, non denominational, etc, especially on my mother’s side. When my mother was young, after being baptized in a Pentecostal-esque church, she was told that in order to prove she had received the Holy Spirit she must “speak in tongues”. She couldn’t, so the church leaders told her to just fake it until she could, that it would come in time when she got used to it… She didnt go back to those type of churches after that because it made her feel really uncomfortable.

 

[godisgood77]

In opinion, Speaking In Tongues is utter nonsense… My experience aligns with some others here where young people were told to ‘fake it’ until they get it. I have been to several charismatic prayer groups and this has been my experience consistently. I have not seen a case where the ‘speaking in tongues’ wasn’t contrived and simple gibberish. Sorry, but I’m just being honest about my experience

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi. This is another issue that makes the gift of tongue in the Catholic Church is so stigmatized to some - because it is often associated with Protestant Charismatic/Pentecostal. And sometimes no denial would be good enough.

No, Catholic Charismatics are not Protestants nor they are inspired by them nor they are the same.

 

[nightshade]

I understand the two are different. I have seen lots of posts in this thread discussing the act of “speaking in tongues” in charismatic protestant denominations. I was just adding to that with my experience.

 

[Medawlinno]

Some general observations regarding some of the above posts followed by a few comments from various posters in somewhat of the order they were posted. I suspect I’ll need to do this in two separate posts due to allowable length.

It’s interesting that the phenomenon of modern tongues has entered Roman Catholicism and is gaining acceptance.

I don’t really see it as anything unusual though. Throughout the centuries, the RC church has ‘allowed’ and absorbed many practices from various religions. These were subsequently Christianized and today, no one really looks at where many of these things originally came from; they have become ‘part of church beliefs/practices’, as it were.

I think we are seeing the same thing happening today with respect to the CC movement; The whole thing with “tongues” is very “Pentecostal”. The general Pentecostal beliefs that are entering the RC church is a bit unique in that what’s being absorbed is coming from another Christian belief, rather than from a non-Christian religion.

Pentecostalism is one of the fastest growing religions in the world – I can’t help but wonder if it’s a matter of “if you can’t lick ‘em, join ‘em” kind of thing going on, i.e. ‘let’s create an acceptable Catholic version of this’, or if it is seen as a way of “dealing with the competition” so to speak; ‘we don’t want to lose people to this other denomination, so let’s have our own version.’

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not calling it a bad thing, just kind of odd. Call it what you will, I see it as basically a Catholicization of certain Pentecostal beliefs.

When I commented earlier about the meaning of “praying in the spirit” – specifically that in Pentecostal parlance it equates to speaking in tongues, I should have included that it also equates to ‘praying in tongues’ as well. That concept seems to be the same in the CC movement.

I need to be more specific with the above because as a linguist, for me there is absolutely no difference between praying or speaking in ‘tongues’ – it’s all produced the exact same way with the exact same results with respect to the glossolalia produced. I do understand the ‘spiritual’/religious difference between the two.

 

[Medawlinno]

Reuben J - I was shown that there were evidence that some saints did pray in tongue. Not that I want to argue it here because the phenomenon is approved by the Church.

There are some written accounts, and in looking at what is being described, it seems to strongly point to glossolalia (non-cognitive non-language utterance – NC-NLU).

Kaliaa - Fr. Cantalemessa is also a well-known Charismatic.

Yes, but his “tongues” are NC-NLU, just like everyone else’s.

Deacon Jeff - Actually it is scriptural. Rom. 8:26 “Inexpressible groanings”

This passage is frequently used to evidence modern ‘tongues’ – if you read the entire text, it has absolutely nothing to do with languages (“tongues”) at all – again, a reading into scripture of something that just isn’t there by certain Christian denominations.

Guanophore - On the contrary, there is a manifestation of demonic tongues. Any study of exorcism will demonstrate this.

One of the hallmarks of demonic possession is xenoglossy, not ‘tongues’. A totally different animal here. Curiously, Latin seems to be the most common language exhibited. What is interesting is that said demons, from various written accounts, are apparently “grammar Nazis”, often correcting the exorcist in his use of incorrect grammar. It’s used conversely as well - it’s one of the ways exorcists will use to ‘verify’ (can’t think of a better word) the demon is real; they’ll ask a question that demands a specific response in a particular grammatical case. If the response is given in grammatically correct Latin, chances are likely it’s a legit possession. Greek is also used as well and to a lesser extent, Aramaic and Hebrew.

It seems your research has been quite limited.

I would welcome a case study or two to read of verifiable xenoglossy that isn’t anecdotal or reported third or more party.

Exactly. Which is why, when we don’t know how to pray as we ought (in conformity with His Will) the Spirit intercedes for us in our weakness!

The Spirit may indeed intercede, but the interceding consists of inspiring the person; not telling them want to say or how to say it. That’s all the person.

I am relieved that this is not true!

Again, I’d welcome verifiable evidence. A speaker of modern tongues will not produce any sounds that s/he has never been exposed to whether the speaker’s native language or one they have encountered at some point by whatever means.

 

[Medawlinno]

OK - so apparently three posts were needed due to size constraints

How did what happened to the house of Cornelius “make sense”?

That’s a whole separate post – to try and really summarize and leaving out a lot of detail, suffice to say for now that we are not told what Cornelius’ or his companions’ native language was. It’s naturally assumed Greek by many, but given the narrative, was probably not – just a language Peter and his companions had not encountered and weren’t familiar with. Given that Ephesus was a seaport and the Temple of Artemis (in Ephesus) was considered one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, it’s pretty safe to assume there were, as in Corinth, people from all over the known world there at any given time. Cornelius and his people could have spoken any number of languages not familiar to Peter. It should be noted that when one gives an automatic, instant emotional response to a situation, a person will always revert to their native language. The narrative makes perfect sense in light of real language.

I don’t. I am just aware it is not a language with which I am familiar. God is outside of the time/space continuum, so they may be dead languages, for all I know!

There have been hundreds of recorded and transcribed examples of ‘tongues’ which have been analyzed – not one has ever been found to meet the criteria of ‘language’, let alone be an actual real language spoken anywhere, living or dead. Whether spoken on earth, some alien world, or heaven, to speak something and call it language, it must meet certain criteria – “tongues” meets none of these. It is non-cognitive non-language utterance; there’s just no getting around that.

Roseeurekacross - Ever done it yourself?

As a linguist, I play around with language and sounds in various languages all the time (usually when I’m alone – in a car driving, for example), so in a sense, I could easily say that I ‘speak in tongues’ all the time.

We are not discussing the non Catholic speaking in tongues, only the Catholic

There is no difference between what you’re producing and what a Pentecostal tongues-speaker, or even an Evenki Shaman from Siberia is producing; it’s all the same, produced the exact same way.

I pray and sing in tongues. You are calling me a fake.

That was “Thistle’s” comment you’re quoting (I just commented on it). As described further above, for many Christian believers it’s a very real and spiritually meaningful experience, and it helps to create a stronger relationship to the divine and strengthen one’s spiritual path, but consisting of emotional release via non-linguistic ‘free vocalizations’ at best – the subconscious playing with sounds to create what is perceived and interpreted as actual, meaningful speech. Indeed, in some extreme cases, I would argue that it is clearly a self/mass delusion prompted by such a strong desire to “experience God” that one creates that experience.

 

[Medawlinno]

I understand and get your point, but what’s being produced is certainly not ‘groanings’; it’s speech, just not language (or am I missing something?).

 

[Medawlinno]

Thanks, got it, but I’m not saying it’s language, quite the opposite actually- in my experience it’s the speakers who believe what they producing to be language (usually a heavenly or spiritual language).

edit - OK - actually after looking at the posts, I see what you mean (I think) - I am definitely of the opinion that “tongues” in the Bible refer only to real language(s); there’s just nothing there that can’t be explained in light of real language. Modern tongues, on the other hand, are not language at all; however, those that speak them, generally tend to think they are.

So, if I understand correctly, you note that in your experience, speakers do not equate what they are producing to language, i.e. they recognize that their “tongues” are non-language utterance?

 

[Kaliaa]

One thing you do NOT find in Catholic Charismatic groups is the insistence that everyone must speak in tongues as some kind of sign or they will not be accepted. Nor, are they given the impression that something is wrong with them. Faking it isn’t what this is about. I’m sorry she had such a bad experience.

 

[Medawlinno]

What I am about to say is entirely anecdotal so take it for what it is.

I come from a family that was mostly charismatic protestant- Pentecostal, non denominational, etc, especially on my mother’s side. When my mother was young, after being baptized in a Pentecostal-esque church, she was told that in order to prove she had received the Holy Spirit she must “speak in tongues”. She couldn’t, so the church leaders told her to just fake it until she could, that it would come in time when she got used to it… She didnt go back to those type of churches after that because it made her feel really uncomfortable.

That experience is, from what I’ve researched and have been told, not at all that uncommon. There is an intense pressure to say something, so long as it isn’t English. There are numerous “how to” videos and pamphlets which suggest the “tongues aspirant” begin by saying something like “woulda-coulda-shoulda bought a honda” (i.e. some nonsensical phrase based on English) until they can “get the feel of speaking in tongues” and just start producing it automatically. In some Pentecostal circles, it’s referred to as “priming the pump”.

 

[Medawlinno]

In some Pentecostal circles, it’s referred to as “priming the pump”.

Here’s an example taken from a typical ‘how to’ article mentioned in my previous post -

Beginning to speak in tongues is like “priming a pump” — begin by using your mind to make various sounds and syllables, then as sounds flow out, the Holy Spirit will take over.

 

[Medawlinno]

For those who might be wondering what I typical “tongue” sounds like -

Below is an example taken right off of a YouTube site of a legitimate pastor speaking a tongue – here’s a transcription of the first glossic string given. It was followed by its “interpretation”:

Káyntay háychee, háychee kéeho hóro. /kénte héči, héči kího hóro/
Máhcha keetáy lah mócho, /máča kité la móčo/
rána mahcháy nay keetáh lau. /rána mačé ne kitá lau/
Réhnah shay kée nah máhto. /rɛ’na še kí na máto/

Essentially you read the above left-hand side as if it were English – the only convention I have used is to put an accent over the syllable in the ‘word’ that receives the main stress. The ‘ay’ here is the ‘ay’ in “day”, and of course, don’t forget to trill your R’s. The punctuation written is an assumption only and is based solely on the speaker’s intonation and phrasing.

What appears in between the slashes / / is the same utterance rendered in a simple IPA transcription.

It should be noted that the accompanying “interpretation” (I won’t give it here) is considerably more lengthy (that’s quite typical - interpretations are usually inordinately longer than the actual glossic utterance).

 

[whyeyeman]

No, Catholic Charismatics are not Protestants nor they are inspired by them nor they are the same

Modern day speaking in tongues was introduced by Protestants. This you cannot deny. Therefore, if you want to accept it as anything more than the ability to understand foreign languages, you must believe that protestants in some way were recieving more grace than Catholics at the time. I really don’t see how this can be true if the Catholic church is the one true church.

Thomas Aquinas spoke of the gift of tongues in great detail and he interpreted it to mean the ability to understand foreign languages.

 

[evangelical]

Well illustrated summary

 

[guanophore]

Speaking In Tongues is utter nonsense… Sorry, but I’m just being honest about my experience

It seems that you have gone beyond your own experience to make a judgment that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is “utter nonsense”. This seems like a very risky approach, no matter what one’s experience of a gift, or not.

It’s interesting that the phenomenon of modern tongues has entered Roman Catholicism and is gaining acceptance.

Do you not believe that God really answers prayer? Or do you not believe the prayers of the Pope were efficacious?

Pentecostalism is one of the fastest growing religions in the world – I can’t help but wonder if it’s a matter of “if you can’t lick ‘em, join ‘em” kind of thing going on, i.e. ‘let’s create an acceptable Catholic version of this’, or if it is seen as a way of “dealing with the competition” so to speak; ‘we don’t want to lose people to this other denomination, so let’s have our own version.’

Except that the prayer of the Holy Father and Vatican II were not emanating from Protestant sources.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

I guess some of you naysaying guys were not up with the 2017 Jubilee of the Catholic Charismatic Movement, and the celebration with Holy Father Pope Francis.

It’s really not good enough to be so insulated in our Catholic ways that we don’t keep up with and think on what the Holy See is doing in our Catholic World

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...arismatics-to-celebration-at-vatican-in-2017/

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Pope Francis knelt onstage in Rome’s Olympic Stadium on Sunday as more than 50,000 Catholic Charismatic prayed for him, singing and speaking in tongues.

“In the early years of the Charismatic Renewal in Buenos Aires, I did not have much love for Charismatics,” the Pope said. “I said of them: ‘They seem like a samba school.’”

Little by little, though, he came to see how much good the movement was doing for Catholics and for the Church, he told a gathering organised by the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services and the Catholic Fraternity of Charismatic Covenant Communities and Fellowships.

Pope Francis invited the crowd…to come to St Peter’s Square for Pentecost in 2017 to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the movement. The Catholic Charismatic movement traces its origins to a retreat held in 1967 with students and staff from Duquesne University in Pittsburgh.

“I expected all of you, Charismatics from around the world, to celebrate your Great Jubilee with the Pope at Pentecost 2017 in St Peter’s Square,”

began with the song, “Vive Jesús, el Señor” , a Spanish-language song which Pope Francis – who claims he is tone deaf – joined in singing with his hands open like many in the crowd. The Pope said he likes the song, which Charismatics in Argentina also sing.

“When I celebrated the Holy Mass with the Charismatic Renewal in the Buenos Aires cathedral, after the consecration and after a few seconds of adoration in tongues, we sang this song with such joy and strength,” he said.

At another point, when the crowd prayed that the Holy Spirit would fill Pope Francis, he knelt on the bare floor of the stage, while they sang with their hands raised toward him. After the song, many in the crowd kept their hands raised as they prayed in tongues, speaking in unfamiliar languages.

…

“May the Lord bless families and strengthen them during this crisis when the Devil wants to destroy them,” the Pope prayed.

In a speech, Pope Francis told the Charismatics that they their movement was begun by the Holy Spirit as “a current of grace in the Church and for the Church.”

He pleaded with Charismatic groups not to try to organize everything or create a bureaucracy that attempts to tame the Holy Spirit.

The temptation “to become ‘controllers’ of the grace of God” is a danger, the pope said. Group leaders, sometimes without even meaning to, become “administrators of grace”, deciding who should exercise which gifts of the Holy Spirit. “Don’t do this anymore,” Pope Francis said. “Be dispensers of God’s grace, not controllers. Don’t be the Holy Spirit’s customs agents.”

From the beginning, he said, Charismatics were known for their love of and familiarity with the scriptures. The Pope asked those who lost the habit of carrying their Bible with them everywhere to “return to this first love, always have the word of God in your pocket or purse”.

Pope Francis also said Catholic Charismatics have a special role to play in healing divisions among Christians by exercising “spiritual ecumenism” or praying with members of other Christian churches and communities who share a belief in Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

 

[Reuben_J]

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not calling it a bad thing, just kind of odd. Call it what you will, I see it as basically a Catholicization of certain Pentecostal beliefs.

No problem.
However, you will get denial of this. Protestants do not have exclusive dominant on this. It is also a denigration our Catholic brothers and sisters in the Charismatic Renewal.

It is important to start that it is the action of the Holy Spirit, which we cannot fully understand and analyse. We can only say whether it is genuine or not. There is a test for it which is from the Holy Spirit as well – the gift of the discernment (of the Spirit).

When I commented earlier about the meaning of “praying in the spirit” – specifically that in Pentecostal parlance it equates to speaking in tongues, I should have included that it also equates to ‘praying in tongues’ as well. That concept seems to be the same in the CC movement.

I need to be more specific with the above because as a linguist, for me there is absolutely no difference between praying or speaking in ‘tongues’ – it’s all produced the exact same way with the exact same results with respect to the glossolalia produced. I do understand the ‘spiritual’/religious difference between the two.

I suggest do not get fixated by the terminology. It is used sometimes because of want of better word.

Praying in tongue is more specific, that is praying in tongue.

Praying in the Spirit is more general. The idea is that the Holy Spirit leads oneself in the prayer. It can be in tongue, soft singing, or murmuring or anything – to be completely immersed in the Spirit, allowing Him to take over, to dictate the sound that comes out of our lips.

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben J - I was shown that there were evidence that some saints did pray in tongue. Not that I want to argue it here because the phenomenon is approved by the Church.

There are some written accounts, and in looking at what is being described, it seems to strongly point to glossolalia (non-cognitive non-language utterance – NC-NLU).

Kaliaa - Fr. Cantalemessa is also a well-known Charismatic.

Yes, but his “tongues” are NC-NLU, just like everyone else’s.

Deacon Jeff - Actually it is scriptural. Rom. 8:26 “Inexpressible groanings”

This passage is frequently used to evidence modern ‘tongues’ – if you read the entire text, it has absolutely nothing to do with languages (“tongues”) at all – again, a reading into scripture of something that just isn’t there by certain Christian denominations.

Hi Medawlinno. Yes, there are some saints that prayed in tongue. St. Francis Xavier is one example.

As for Rom 8:26. It is not conclusive depending on how you understand this verse.

But maybe just think, what it is meant by groan, word that we cannot understand, which the Spirit prays through us, when we are weak and do not know how to pray?

If you look at the praying in tongue, that is what happened actually.

A person does not know how to pray, and truly lots of them do not know how to pray, but when they yield to the Holy Spirit, then sound comes out of their mouth – to praise God, to pray.

What is groan? What is this groan that we cannot understand? Similar situation happens when a person is given the gift of tongue. When we refer to this verse, such phenomenon is actually not strange after all, whether one calls it tongue or not.

Again, I’d welcome verifiable evidence. A speaker of modern tongues will not produce any sounds that s/he has never been exposed to whether the speaker’s native language or one they have encountered at some point by whatever means.

I do not believe there is evidence, especially the one which we want to see. It is more a process of discernment, not evidence. It is whether the Spirit is involved or not.