Do you make the sign of the cross at the end of Gloria and Credo?

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In my missal (St. Andrews, 1945), there is a small red cross at each point throughout the Mass where the priest makes the sign of the cross. The altar servers at Low Mass are taught that when the sign of the cross happens during a prayer that the priest says aloud, they should make it along with the priest. Those times are at the Introit, at the two ‘Indulgentiums’, Gloria, and Credo. Altar boys are also taught to bow slightly to the Blessed Sacrament during Mass at every “Jesum Christum”, “Gloria Patri”, and “Oremus” along with the priest. The faithful probably tend to do this because the servers do it. Our entire congregation typically does the signs of the crosses with the altar servers at Low Mass but I admit that I have never heard a priest give instruction on it.

In a Missa Cantata, the server who is fulfilling the role of the MC mirrors all of the priest’s signs of the cross during the Canon as well as all of the priests genuflections.
 
giuseppeTO said:
In my missal (St. Andrews, 1945), there is a small red cross at each point throughout the Mass where the priest makes the sign of the cross. The altar servers at Low Mass are taught that when the sign of the cross happens during a prayer that the priest says aloud, they should make it along with the priest. Those times are at the Introit, at the two ‘Indulgentiums’, Gloria, and Credo. Altar boys are also taught to bow slightly to the Blessed Sacrament during Mass at every “Jesum Christum”, “Gloria Patri”, and “Oremus” along with the priest. The faithful probably tend to do this because the servers do it. Our entire congregation typically does the signs of the crosses with the altar servers at Low Mass but I admit that I have never heard a priest give instruction on it.
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OK, this sounds familiar to me. I have a 1957 St Andrews missal and it is probably the same as yours. It obviously could be the case that in our congregation some people follow the servers. I’m guessing that if only a small number of people are doing something then it is probably not required or is simply wrong.
 
Contra_Mundum said:
OK, this sounds familiar to me. I have a 1957 St Andrews missal and it is probably the same as yours. It obviously could be the case that in our congregation some people follow the servers. I’m guessing that if only a small number of people are doing something then it is probably not required or is simply wrong.
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I think you’re right. In this case, it would be neither wrong nor required.

Another practice that is inconsistent, even in our chapel, is the signing on the forehead, lips, and heart prior to the reading of the gospel. In the TLM, the priest only does it when the reading comes within the conduct of the Mass. When the priest leaves the altar, and usually places his maniple over the missal, and goes to the pulpit to read the gospel in the vernacular, he does not repeat the signing because this is technically a break in the Mass (for the vernacular readings and sermon) - but many of the faithful still do the signing the second time out of habit. Again, I think to get too obsessive-compulsive over these things benefits nobody. I typically see these kinds of things dealt with by the priest if he feels the need during adult catechism classes which we have every Sunday after Mass for about 45 minutes.
 
giuseppeTO said:
When the priest leaves the altar, and usually places his maniple over the missal, and goes to the pulpit to read the gospel in the vernacular, he does not repeat the signing because this is technically a break in the Mass (for the vernacular readings and sermon) - but many of the faithful still do the signing the second time out of habit.
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Yes, some people do this at mine too and I think that the Priest isn’t terribly worried about it, as he has never addressed the issue directly.
 
rwoehmke said:
I have never observed this being done by any lay person :)at any OF Mass and it was never the case at Mass before Vatican II at least as far back in as1942 when we Catholic school kids attended Mass every school day morning as well as Sundays and Holy Days. Perhaps it depends on ones diocese, nationality, or locality.🙂
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I don’t think citing to OF masses will give you an indication of what is traditionally customary. This custom is observed in a traditional context, e.g., TLM and praying the traditional office, although this doesn’t explain why you didn’t see this gesture prior to '69.

For those who’d like to read up on this subject, you might consult “The sign of the cross in the western liturgies” by Ernest Beresford-Cooke (1907, p. 27-28):
“Grancolas cites Rufinus as stating that in the church of Acquileia, at the words of the creed, Hujus carnis resurrectionem, the sign of the cross was made upon the foreheads because of the demonstrative hujus, and so to mark the part referred to, viz. the body, flesh; and it is perhaps for this reason that the signing at the end of the creed has arisen, since it anciently terminated with the article containing the resurrection…”

The Sign of the Cross is an act of personal piety; one should avoid scrupling over this subject as being an abuse in the context of Catholic liturgy. I understand the concern some may have over “liturgical innovations”, but this is not one of those. It is quite ancient.

PS: Rufinus is circa 345 😉
 
giuseppeTO said:
I think you’re right. In this case, it would be neither wrong nor required.

Another practice that is inconsistent, even in our chapel, is the signing on the forehead, lips, and heart prior to the reading of the gospel. In the TLM, the priest only does it when the reading comes within the conduct of the Mass. When the priest leaves the altar, and usually places his maniple over the missal, and goes to the pulpit to read the gospel in the vernacular, he does not repeat the signing because this is technically a break in the Mass (for the vernacular readings and sermon) - but many of the faithful still do the signing the second time out of habit. Again, I think to get too obsessive-compulsive over these things benefits nobody. I typically see these kinds of things dealt with by the priest if he feels the need during adult catechism classes which we have every Sunday after Mass for about 45 minutes.
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Interesting. We don’t get a reading in the vernacular so have never seen this happen. (I’ve been to two other TLMs abroad but don’t remember if theere was a 2nd reading in the vernacular).
 
Euthyphro said:
The Sign of the Cross is an act of personal piety; one should avoid scrupling over this subject as being an abuse in the context of Catholic liturgy. I understand the concern some may have over “liturgical innovations”, but this is not one of those. It is quite ancient.
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Makes sense. I don’t see making the sign of the cross as abuse. Was just wondering if it is according to the book or not.
I remember talking about liturgy with an ex-Orthodox who was explaining that their customs are more fluid. That people have personal pieties which are expressed during liturgy and it is not an issue. He has kept the habit and crosses himself more than the rest of us during Mass 😃
 
Contra_Mundum said:
Interesting. We don’t get a reading in the vernacular so have never seen this happen. (I’ve been to two other TLMs abroad but don’t remember if theere was a 2nd reading in the vernacular).
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Actually they’re not really called “readings” in the EF. There are the Introit, Collect, Epistle, Gradual/Tract, Gospel, Offertory, Secret, Communion, and PostCommunion prayers and are part of the Mass. Additionally the Epistle and the Gospel are read in the vernacular generally at the beginning of the sermon by the priest, who uses perhaps a handmissal for those “readings.”

In some parishes now the vernacular Epistle and Gospel are read in the actual Mass, substituting for the Latin Epistle and Gospel. There was a provision in the 2007 SP which allowed this. I don’t really see this as an advantage, however. One reading in the Latin and the same reading in the vernacular can be of greater advantage.
 
No missal prior to 1970 contained any rubrical directions for the congregation. It was unknown. I am referring to altar missals and liturgical documents, not privately-published missals for the laity. There are today many guidelines as to when the EF congregation should stand, sit or kneel, but these are based on the postures of the clerical choir, not of any legislation or rubrics, which never provided guidelines for the congregation in the pew. Ditto for signs of the cross. As the liturgical movement progressed, and especially when Dialogue Masses became more common, it was inevitable that the congregation would look to the servers and clergy in choir as models for their own movements.
 
damooster said:
Normally I disagree with you (no offense) but I can’t argue with you here. I could mention that there’s a big difference between making the Sign of the Cross and holding hands, but I’ll leave that for someone else because this past Sunday I sat next to a guy who kept giving me the evil eye for not Signing myself after the Gloria, Credo, Confiteor, and not pounding my chest etc. I don’t do it because the rubrics don’t specify for me to do so, so I have to be fair because your sarcasm has some merit.
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Seriously? Keep leaning East. We care very little about what acts of personal piety others do during the Divine Liturgy, or when they do it.
 
As a former Anglo Catholic we always crossed ourselves at the last words of the Creed and Gloria, also at the Sanctus and when the priest raised the Body of Christ and Blood.

From my understanding these gestures were following what was done during the TLM in the Catholic Church. To this day this is done in most of the Ordinariate parishes and Anglican Use parishes.

As one poster said why are people concerned with others private devotions. Nothing has come from Rome to say these gestures are not to be done. There are some that some do that are rejected by Rome, i.e. using one’s hands in the position of the priest, expecting everyone to hold hands, when it is a choice that from reading my missal the priest either encourages it or as in my parish we don’t hold hands.

I have never been to a TLM Mass, however, if they all follow the same rubrics I think that is a very positive thing, as at OF liturgies one never knows what that parishes customs are.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette
 
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